Vaccine safety data vs getting COVID vs gen population
https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475

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Mathguy64 said:

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I know 3 vaccinated breakthroughs in my circle. All three had multiple kids at home (unvaccinated) that tested positive first. I know of more than a dozen unvaccinated that have gotten it in the last two months. I know two hundred (friends, family, my large rotary club, coworkers) that are vaccinated and all have stayed clear since their vaccine.

Aren't anecdotal numbers fun?

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aggierogue said:

The fact that you know 3 vaccinated breakthroughs should be evidence that the vaccine is not stopping the spread. Curbing? Sure. Better than being unvaccinated? Sure. I never argued otherwise. I'm simply saying that there are too many people getting breakthrough cases to pretend that you're going to be protected by being vaccinated.

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Mathguy64 said:

People use condoms and take oral birth control medication and still have babies. That doesn't make them bad or ineffective. But if you don't want children would you rather use them or go commando and take your chances?

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aggierogue said:

That's your argument for a vaccine that has about 60 percent protection after 3 months?

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Mathguy64 said:

I give up. If you honestly believe that the safest thing you can do is to choose to not get vaccinated you go for it. Roll those dice. Or maybe spend some time reading the thread on this board telling the stories of the three people who rolled the dice and spent weeks in the hospital.

And depending on your age thank your parents or grandparents for being brave enough to take that experimental polio and new and improved smallpox vaccine in the 50's.

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CondensedFoggyAggie said:

We all knew debating here wouldn't change anyone's mind. Only thread that ever changed maybe anyones mind was the one where 4 good folks not vaccinated ended up in the hospital but thankfully recovered, all saying they will get vaccinated asap.

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SoupNazi2001 said:

You are picking 4 people. Do you really think 4 random stories out of a country of 330 million people changes minds. People know their own health and can evaluate the risks. Stories aren't told of ones that have mild Covid recover and are fine but that is the vast majority of people. Those stories aren't interesting or frightening though.

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aggierogue said:

It appears that anecdotal evidence is only relevant if if fits the narrative.

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CondensedFoggyAggie said:

Have nothing to say so falling back on 'narrative' eh? Also 99% recovery rate means nothing if you're the 1%. Do a seach on facebook for 'covid vent' and you'll see thousands of posts in the last 24 hours of desperate family.

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aggierogue said:

I'm not sure why my stance is so upsetting to some of you. I'm in my forties, not overweight, and eat healthier than 99 percent of people I know. So I think my chances are greater than 99 percent. But the fact that I've also seen very healthy people get very sick is not lost on me. I'm also perfectly aware that I could be in that group that ends up regretting my decision. I certainly don't think I'm bulletproof.

I just have to be convinced that there aren't long term dangers to this vaccine. You're going to tell me there is zero risk in taking the vaccine. Plenty of people would disagree.

The longer the vaccines are available to public with no long term side effects, the more I will trust them.

The more the efficacy drops with the vaccines in terms of protecting from Covid or keeping people out of the hospital, the less use I have for them as well.

I wish I was less of a skeptic sometimes. Life would be easier. But I don't trust the government. I don't trust many of the medical governing bodies or the shareholders of big pharma as well.

I think you'd have to be a fool to not acknowledge that politics are heavily embedded on the vaccine issue.

So here I am at the crossroads.

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You go to a theme park, and there's a roller coaster that fails 1% of the time and everyone on it dies.

That means on average every day, one full ride of people on it will die.

Do you ride it or no?

Actually, would your parents, wife, and kids agree and allow you to ride it? Would you let your parents, uncles, in laws ride it?

Or say hey, there's another roller coaster over there that's 20 or even 50 times less likely to crash?

As irritated as you may be by us, we're the ones pointing at the safer alternative, that the vast majority of mechanics have already been on and recommend to ride so everyone can come home to their families

Are you talking about driving a motor vehicle in this scenario? Or is this metaphor only about COVID risks?

Old Buffalo said:

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Are you talking about driving a motor vehicle in this scenario? Or is this metaphor only about COVID risks?

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Just a metaphor about covid risks. Obviously not perfect, numbers and other things can be changed depending on what one believes, if the other roller coaster ride is new and 'experimental', if there is a 'big amusement park' cartel, etc

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Zobel said:

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Most viruses have no treatment.

Prescribing medications that don't work is at best the same as doing nothing, at worst carries additional hazard.

For most people, there is no medication that's going to help. But that's ok, because for most people a full recovery is certain.

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aggierogue said:

Huh?

Something as simple as aspirin could be considered treatment.

There are treatments for the flu (Tamiflu), HIV, Cold sores (Valtrex), RSV, common cold, etc. Those are just a few off the top of my head.

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Gordo14 said:

Most of those treat the symptoms more than they treat the virus itself. Antibiotics are very effective for bacteria, but viruses in general are substantially harder to treat without your immune systems help.

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aggierogue said:

Sure I get that. But we're talking about symptoms right? Much like the current vaccine, if you could find a drug that would treat the symptoms of Covid and get you to wellness, that would be great news right? Currently the vaccine is not treating the virus. It is treating the symptoms by making them less severe. Tell me where I'm wrong?

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Mathguy64 said:

The point of a perfect vaccine is to keep you from getting the virus in the first place. For example:

Polio vaccine? Yep. Down to pockets in about 4 countries. They get oral immunizations yearly. It's close to being eradicated.
Smallpox? Yep. The vaccine eradicated the disease.

Or kill the virus once you have been exposed. For example: Rabies.

Not every vaccine is perfect. The yearly flu vaccine being a good example.

I would say that the current vaccine is doing a pretty decent job based on the numbers hospitals are reporting. Yes there are breakthroughs but the overwhelming majority of cases are in the unvaccinated class. And those that are breaking through seem less severe.

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aggierogue said:

Half of the hospitalizations in the most vaccinated country in the world are now fully vaccinated. 1 in 150 now have Covid in Israel. 7,500 new cases daily. And they are near 80 percent vaccinated for 12 and up.

There are 8 people on my team where I work. Seven are fully vaccinated, and I'm the only one not vaccinated. Two have already contracted Covid in the last month. I personally know far more people who have contracted Covid who are fully vaccinated than I do who are not vaccinated.

This vaccine isn't keeping people from getting Covid. It's keeping people from getting severely sick, and that's not even always the case.

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Suppose that 90% of a population has been vaccinated and they account for half of the cases. Then that means that the 10% of the population that hasn't been vaccinated also accounts for half of the cases. It would suck to be in that 10% that hasn't been vaccinated.

Why, they now have natural immunity.

It amazes me that so many on here try to tell others what to do. Ridiculous.

Take or don't take HCQ, ivermectin, aspirin, shot, no shot.

It's not your business.

DadHammer said:

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Why, they now have natural immunity.

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That's what surprised me too. They have natural immunity now, yet all said they would get the vaccine asap.

They seemed to say something along the lines of your lungs not working well for weeks and being in the icu was a hellish experience.

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Zobel said:

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Most viruses have no treatment.

Prescribing medications that don't work is at best the same as doing nothing, at worst carries additional hazard.

For most people, there is no medication that's going to help. But that's ok, because for most people a full recovery is certain.

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aggierogue said:

Huh?

Something as simple as aspirin could be considered treatment.

There are treatments for the flu (Tamiflu), HIV, Cold sores (Valtrex), RSV, common cold, etc. Those are just a few off the top of my head.

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Gordo14 said:

Most of those treat the symptoms more than they treat the virus itself. Antibiotics are very effective for bacteria, but viruses in general are substantially harder to treat without your immune systems help.

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aggierogue said:

Sure I get that. But we're talking about symptoms right? Much like the current vaccine, if you could find a drug that would treat the symptoms of Covid and get you to wellness, that would be great news right? Currently the vaccine is not treating the virus. It is treating the symptoms by making them less severe. Tell me where I'm wrong?

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Mathguy64 said:

The point of a perfect vaccine is to keep you from getting the virus in the first place. For example:

Polio vaccine? Yep. Down to pockets in about 4 countries. They get oral immunizations yearly. It's close to being eradicated.
Smallpox? Yep. The vaccine eradicated the disease.

Or kill the virus once you have been exposed. For example: Rabies.

Not every vaccine is perfect. The yearly flu vaccine being a good example.

I would say that the current vaccine is doing a pretty decent job based on the numbers hospitals are reporting. Yes there are breakthroughs but the overwhelming majority of cases are in the unvaccinated class. And those that are breaking through seem less severe.

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aggierogue said:

Half of the hospitalizations in the most vaccinated country in the world are now fully vaccinated. 1 in 150 now have Covid in Israel. 7,500 new cases daily. And they are near 80 percent vaccinated for 12 and up.

There are 8 people on my team where I work. Seven are fully vaccinated, and I'm the only one not vaccinated. Two have already contracted Covid in the last month. I personally know far more people who have contracted Covid who are fully vaccinated than I do who are not vaccinated.

This vaccine isn't keeping people from getting Covid. It's keeping people from getting severely sick, and that's not even always the case.

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eric76 said:

Suppose that 90% of a population has been vaccinated and they account for half of the cases. Then that means that the 10% of the population that hasn't been vaccinated also accounts for half of the cases. It would suck to be in that 10% that hasn't been vaccinated.

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78 percent at last numbers. But yeah, I get your point. Nowhere have I said that unvaccinated are less likely to be hospitalized. Only that being vaccinated doesn't necessarily keep you out of the hospital, and it's alarming the amount of cases in the world's most vaccinated country.

200 Million north India

There are no active cases of the coronavirus disease (Covid-19) in 33 districts of Uttar Pradeshhttps://t.co/JVj1xRdfKQ

— DElijah78 (@DElijah78) September 16, 2021

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What can we learn from this? Time for #PlanB
👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇https://t.co/SAZZEoDOZ0

— Bernadette Kathryn (@bkfitness) September 16, 2021

Loading full tweet…

Gateway pundit? No thanks

Not that I believe India's numbers, but The funny part is India uses strict containment zones and ditched ivermectin use months ago

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Windy City Ag said:

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Most people rightly listen to their doctor over rumble.com.

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aggierogue said:

My doctor prescribes Ivermectin. He brought it up without me even asking last week.

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Wild love t known who you're doctor is, I need a new one.

That state also has 90 million people fully vaccinated

fullback44 said:

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evidently this came from John Hopkins.. not real sure though

also not sure why my Dr prescribes ivermectin or where he gets his research data from to make these decisions but I would think this is one of the main reasons.. countrys in Africa taking ivermectin for river blindness have seen far far more less covid deaths.. India has had the same results in the regions talking Ivermectin ..

BTW, I had covid last year, my Dr gave me this treatment regimen

HCQ
Doxy
Ivermectin
Steroid inhaler (dont remember which one)
zinc (some special form, cant remember this either)
vitamin D and multimin

took if for 6 days and quit taking it .. felt better after 2 days feeling kind of crappy

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Pretty much the same here from teledoc. Filled everything at CVS.

Got this from Methodist today. Folks, lose your primary care docs that are tied to big systems. Many of them are the ones that won't treat COVID unless it's time to go to the hospital.

https://www.houstonmethodist.org/blog/articles/2021/sep/5-reasons-you-shouldnt-take-ivermectin-for-covid-19/?utm_source=campaign_monitor&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=hmh_cs_contenthub_091621&utm_content=ivermectin_cta_button

SB 43rd STREET OG said:

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My treatment for Covid back in June 2020 was the following:

Two vodka coktails per night
One 10mg edible per night
Max of 2 cigarettes

I only lost sense of smell. Also felt kind of sluggish for 2 days but not sick at all. One 3-mile run in the 95 degree heat was pretty tough, I must say.

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Awesome. You should tell these good Ags (one of whom almost punched a ticket to ICU) how easy it was for you:

https://texags.com/forums/84/topics/3215580

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Windy City Ag said:

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Most people rightly listen to their doctor over rumble.com.

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aggierogue said:

My doctor prescribes Ivermectin. He brought it up without me even asking last week.

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Crazy Ag 97 said:

Wild love t known who you're doctor is, I need a new one.

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Mathguy64 said:

He admits his doctor doesnt know which vaccine is an mRNA one and which one isnt. They are not exactly high on the "I know what Im doing treating COVID patients" list.

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Newsflash: Most doctors are not the wealth of knowledge that you might think they are.

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SB 43rd STREET OG said:

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My treatment for Covid back in June 2020 was the following:

Two vodka coktails per night
One 10mg edible per night
Max of 2 cigarettes

I only lost sense of smell. Also felt kind of sluggish for 2 days but not sick at all. One 3-mile run in the 95 degree heat was pretty tough, I must say.

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Wakesurfer817 said:

Awesome. You should tell these good Ags (one of whom almost punched a ticket to ICU) how easy it was for you:

https://texags.com/forums/84/topics/3215580

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I think they know that it was even easier for millions and millions of people than I had it. What's funny is some French (I think?) study came out that said regular smokers were significantly under represented in hospital and icu cases over there and they were trying to figure out why. I used that to make myself feel better about indulging with a couple here and there.

I feel bad for any Ag or anyone else who has a tough case of Covid, or anything else. My buddy just had to bury his MIL and I went to her funeral…she didn't believe in vaccination apparently and was 74 and overweight. I also feel bad for our family friend who is fully vaxxed and in his mid 60's and in decent shape who did hard time in the ICU with severe Covid pneumonia and was in hospital for about a month. But I know his type of case is the exception compared to unvaxxed.

aggierogue said:

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Newsflash: Most doctors are not the wealth of knowledge that you might think they are.

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But aggierogue is!

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aggierogue said:

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Newsflash: Most doctors are not the wealth of knowledge that you might think they are.

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gunan01 said:

But aggierogue is!

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Naw, he's right here. If you believe every doctor out there is walking out of the private practice and diving into COVID research then you're naive.

There's a reason some lawyers get paid $1,000 an hour and some get $125.

I mean you can easily blame the opioid crisis on doctors who loved being wined and dined by Purdue and bought into the marketing and kickbacks. Not all docs are equal

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aggierogue said:

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Newsflash: Most doctors are not the wealth of knowledge that you might think they are.

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gunan01 said:

But aggierogue is!

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TelcoAg said:

Naw, he's right here. If you believe every doctor out there is walking out of the private practice and diving into COVID research then you're naive.

There's a reason some lawyers get paid $1,000 an hour and some get $125.

I mean you can easily blame the opioid crisis on doctors who loved being wined and dined by Purdue and bought into the marketing and kickbacks. Not all docs are equal

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And most know very little about nutrition and diet which could alleviate a large percentage of illness without ever taking prescriptions.

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aggierogue said:

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Newsflash: Most doctors are not the wealth of knowledge that you might think they are.

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gunan01 said:

But aggierogue is!

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TelcoAg said:

Naw, he's right here. If you believe every doctor out there is walking out of the private practice and diving into COVID research then you're naive.

There's a reason some lawyers get paid $1,000 an hour and some get $125.

I mean you can easily blame the opioid crisis on doctors who loved being wined and dined by Purdue and bought into the marketing and kickbacks. Not all docs are equal

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Like every other profession they fall on a normal curve of some kind and there are some on the left side of that curve who aren't as good as those on the right. Which one you choose is up to you.

However if a GP can't be bothered to understand what the three different vaccines are or what minimal effective treatment should be in what is likely the greatest general public health issue in their lifetime (assuming they aren't 90 and practiced in the mid 50's and dealt with polio) then maybe it's time to look elsewhere for your health care.

Just my $0.02.

Agree.

Honestly docs make too much money to be slackers. If you are not happy with your doc and suspect they aren't keeping up you need to move on.

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Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag said:

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To preface what I am about to say, people have a right to their opinion and physicians have a right to prescribe what ever they feel appropriate and pharmacists also have the right to deny or fill prescriptions based on what they believe to be appropriate.

That said, this video ignores the in vitro study required markedly toxic levels of ivermectin to demonstrate its "anti-viral properties". It also ignores the highest quality study to date on the subject from JAMA which demonstrated ivermectin to be ineffective in early disease. The TOGETHER trial (see slide 21) has reported its results, and will soon publish their results of multiple repurposed drugs to fight against COVID. It will be the highest quality evidence once published, and its results are negative for the use of ivermectin for mild COVID.

People claiming ivermectin is only a horse dewormer are misinformed much like those claiming it to be a cure. Physicians and government health agencies generally prefer to base therapies on evidence. And of the high quality evidence available, ivermectin is ineffective. We don't make decisions based on Youtube or "rumble" videos.

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Dad said:

I wish more people would comment like this on either side of any issue.

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Most people can't because they don't have the knowledge or training to do so. But they can be manipulated by videos, posts, and "leaders" that want to make this political.