waitwhat? said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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The exception is so common that I've seen in 3 times in 3 weeks in a tiny hospital in a tiny town. This "exception" is so common all the hospitals are full. This exception is common enough that several people who regularly post in this very forum had the same thing happen to them.

I'm not a pulmonologist working in a major hospital in a big city. I'm a small town family doc that sees inpatients on the side. I normally have 0-1 patients in the hospital and 2-3 when I'm on call on any given day. If I'm seeing this all the time, then every other inpatient doctor in Texas is seeing this all the time

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Wow you're seeing more exceptions during a surge, that changes everything.

Doctor, has the virus become more dangerous to that demographic than it used to be, or are you seeing an increase because more of that demographic are now being infected?

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Not my area of expertise. From my reading, it looks like delta is more dangerous for young people than alpha. We're hitting the same hospital numbers as the last peak even though the average age of people in the hospital is way down. So either

1) delta is worse than alpha for younger people
2) we're admitting people who are less sick (not my experience or those of anyone I know)
3) the risk is the same but an order of magnitude more younger people are getting infected (seems unlikely given the numbers of known infections with alpha)

eric76 said:

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gkaggie08 said:

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You missed evolutionary developed over a 100,000 years. Pro tip, it's in parentheses.

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Go on. I'm very interested in learning how 100,000 years of evolution has enabled mankind to develop immunity to a virus it has never seen.

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Unless you think there have been no new viruses in the past 100,000 years, you need only look at reality.

You can also look at the Covid-19 vaccines, considering all they do is force cells to develop a spike protein the immune system hasn't seen before and get it to gain immunity from it.

You really should probably walk this one back.

gkaggie08 said:

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You missed evolutionary developed over a 100,000 years. Pro tip, it's in parentheses.

And on the topic of long term side effects. We have over a century of data on long term side effects of viruses, which gives reasonable extrapolation to covid. We have zero on mRNA vaccines. I'm glad you've chosen to be a gunner pig so I can make an educated decision in 10-15 years

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You missed the point that your immune system has never prepared for covid. What you're seeing shows you don't understand anything about your 100,000 year old immune system. Pro tip, your immune system being exposed to the flu doesn't help your body handle COVID.

Sure we have an amazing immune system. It still can't handle many pathogens without the help of vaccines. **** some things our body can't handle at all. But surely you knew that.

There are plenty of viruses that have awful long term side effects. HIV, HPV, Chickenpox, Hepatitis, Polio, Herpes, etc. Other viruses can just outright kill people - like Rabies (No long term side effects!). So pro tip, many viruses come with long term effects.

I know it's your fantasy that some 75% of the adult population in the US will all just die or something from the vaccine, but again, if you chose to educate yourself on the subject (instead of ignorance - see I can use parentheses too) then you wouldn't think we were guinea pigs.

Gordo14 said:

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gkaggie08 said:

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You missed evolutionary developed over a 100,000 years. Pro tip, it's in parentheses.

And on the topic of long term side effects. We have over a century of data on long term side effects of viruses, which gives reasonable extrapolation to covid. We have zero on mRNA vaccines. I'm glad you've chosen to be a gunner pig so I can make an educated decision in 10-15 years

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You missed the point that your immune system has never prepared for covid. What you're seeing shows you don't understand anything about your 100,000 year old immune system. Pro tip, your immune system being exposed to the flu doesn't help your body handle COVID.

Sure we have an amazing immune system. It still can't handle many pathogens without the help of vaccines. **** some things our body can't handle at all. But surely you knew that.

There are plenty of viruses that have awful long term side effects. HIV, HPV, Chickenpox, Hepatitis, Polio, Herpes, etc. Other viruses can just outright kill people - like Rabies (No long term side effects!). So pro tip, many viruses come with long term effects.

I know it's your fantasy that some 75% of the adult population in the US will all just die or something from the vaccine, but again, if you chose to educate yourself on the subject (instead of ignorance - see I can use parentheses too) then you wouldn't think we were guinea pigs.

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Dude how do you think humanity has survived as long as it has?

" Sure we have an amazing immune system. It still can't handle many pathogens without the help of vaccines."

What nonsense. New pathogens have developed over the millennia and the human immune system has been up to the task. Hence us, you know, BEING HERE.

What you're saying implies that without the vaccines COVID would have wiped us out. It should be clear how absurd that is, considering before the vaccine the fatality rate among those infected of all ages, was 0.4%.

Feel free to test your well developed immune system on any one of a host of viral diseases and get back to us with the results. Polio. Yellow fever. Ebola. MERS. Rabies. Mumps. Measles. Dengue fever. Hantavirus. Smallpox. Viral meningitis. HIV. The list goes on and on. They are all killers.

What a wall of complete, utter bs. As the poster above stated, how did the human race survive for all these years before vaccines were available? Talk about being dense.

And for your other point about 75% of people dying being my 'fantasy'. I don't know your political affiliation, but this smells of the old Democrats accusing rebublicans of the things the democrats are doing.

My hope is that nobody dies of this virus. Between the vaccine for at risk populations and therapeutic treatments for those not high risk, I think we can knock the death toll down below annual flu deaths. I will not advocate for vaccine mandates, however.

But, I have a sneaking suspicion that you and others really hope that 75% of the unvaccinated die. I really think you would cream your pants if that were to happen, so you could smugly get on Facebook and Twitter and announce how superior you are for getting jabbed. Although you would never, ever announce, hell even believe, that vaccinated people are also dying.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/03/health/covid-young-adults-sicker.html

This article quotes a lot of docs and references the few available studies in the subject. Basically, delta seems to be both more contagious and cause more severe illness than alpha.

It also references that the average age of admissions has gone from the 60s with alpha to the 40s with delta. Some like me think that delta is worse than alpha for young people. Other experts thinks it's just more contagious and the age shift is due to vaccination and lack thereof.

Nothing definitive for sure, but all we have is limited data to work with

ramblin_ag02 said:

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https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/03/health/covid-young-adults-sicker.html

This article quotes a lot of docs and references the few available studies in the subject. Basically, delta seems to be both more contagious and cause more severe illness than alpha.

It also references that the average age of admissions has gone from the 60s with alpha to the 40s with delta. Some like me think that delta is worse than alpha for young people. Other experts thinks it's just more contagious and the age shift is due to vaccination and lack thereof.

Nothing definitive for sure, but all we have is limited data to work with

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And your testimony here Doc. Thanks for bringing truth to this discussion. Thanks also for your hard work. I know it must take a toll on you. I appreciate it.

gkaggie08 said:

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What a wall of complete, utter bs. As the poster above stated, how did the human race survive for all these years before vaccines were available? Talk about being dense.

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Humanity survived, but I don't think that mattered much to everyone that died along with half of Europe due to the black plague. Or the hundred million that died to the Spanish flu. Or the 6 hundred thousand American dead due to covid.

Since humans have been here roughly 6 million years, too bad that immune system wasn't enough for the dead. Perhaps a 6 million years plus another few hundred years will make a difference I'm sure?

Anyway, I see you're already making preparations and know what Ivermectin tastes like, so good luck to us all when everyone eventually gets covid.

CondensedFoggyAggie/coronabro/branch covidian



I know this is the UK, but I don't trust a single word out of the CDC/FDA

gkaggie08 said:

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I know this is the UK, but I don't trust a single word out of the CDC/FDA

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Not exactly a surprise I have to say.

waitwhat? said:

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Mathguy64 said:

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Feel free to test your well developed immune system on any one of a host of viral diseases and get back to us with the results. Polio. Yellow fever. Ebola. MERS. Rabies. Mumps. Measles. Dengue fever. Hantavirus. Smallpox. Viral meningitis. HIV. The list goes on and on. They are all killers.

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So to be clear you are putting SARS-CoV-2 in league with those viruses?

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First, to reiterate the question you ducked, your immune system isn't quite as developed as you think it is. The fact that most of us don't live in overcrowded dirty cities with open sewers, that we have access to clean water to drink, that we have reasonably good hygiene, that we eat reasonably clean unspoiled food and that we have access to incredible medicine including modern vaccines and antibiotics is what keeps us in a much better place with diseases like those I listed and those I didn't (like multiple bubonic plagues, the Spanish Flu, the list goes on and on).

And yes I'll put SARS-2 in that list. 110 years ago the Spanish Flu decimated the world. COVID 110 years ago would have been worse. Luckily it's 2020 and not 1920.

traxter said:

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Can't remember if I saw this posted here first, or FB:

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I have my own vaccine story. I recently shared two nights in a hotel room and 16 hours on the road with two covid positive kids of mine. My wife and I are fully vaccinated with Moderna and we never got sick or tested positive. It has been 10 days since it started and 8 since they had any symptoms so we hope we are out of the danger zone by now.

Mathguy64 said:

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waitwhat? said:

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Mathguy64 said:

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Feel free to test your well developed immune system on any one of a host of viral diseases and get back to us with the results. Polio. Yellow fever. Ebola. MERS. Rabies. Mumps. Measles. Dengue fever. Hantavirus. Smallpox. Viral meningitis. HIV. The list goes on and on. They are all killers.

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So to be clear you are putting SARS-CoV-2 in league with those viruses?

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First, to reiterate the question you ducked, your immune system isn't quite as developed as you think it is. The fact that most of us don't live in overcrowded dirty cities with open sewers, that we have access to clean water to drink, that we have reasonably good hygiene, that we eat reasonably clean unspoiled food and that we have access to incredible medicine including modern vaccines and antibiotics is what keeps us in a much better place with diseases like those I listed and those I didn't (like multiple bubonic plagues, the Spanish Flu, the list goes on and on).

And yes I'll put SARS-2 in that list. 110 years ago the Spanish Flu decimated the world. COVID 110 years ago would have been worse. Luckily it's 2020 and not 1920.

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I didn't duck a question. You're suggesting that just because humans still get sick and die, that means our immune system isn't "developed." That's absurd. Of course there are viruses that mutate so much that our immune system can't keep up.

SARS-CoV-2 isn't one of those and it's honestly pretty silly for you to suggest it is. It's laughable to put it in league with smallpox. (It's also laughable to say the Spanish flu "decimated" the world)

When you get infected with something and don't die that is your immune system at work. Millennia of evolution has done a wonderful job at making your body able to not die when it's introduced to most respiratory viruses.

This is good news. Quit being so doom and gloom.

waitwhat? said:

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eric76 said:

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gkaggie08 said:

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You missed evolutionary developed over a 100,000 years. Pro tip, it's in parentheses.

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Go on. I'm very interested in learning how 100,000 years of evolution has enabled mankind to develop immunity to a virus it has never seen.

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Unless you think there have been no new viruses in the past 100,000 years, you need only look at reality.

You can also look at the Covid-19 vaccines, considering all they do is force cells to develop a spike protein the immune system hasn't seen before and get it to gain immunity from it.

You really should probably walk this one back.

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We have surely had plenty of viruses. The point is that having those viruses doesn't give us immunity to viruses (or even close relatives of those viruses) that we haven't seen before.

For that matter, I don't believe that you inherit your parent's immunity to viruses except maybe for viruses for which their DNA has entered our genome. Am I wrong about that?

In other words, that your parents may have had polio, for example, does not mean that you acquired any immunity to polio from them.

eric76 said:

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waitwhat? said:

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eric76 said:

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waitwhat? said:

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eric76 said:

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gkaggie08 said:

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You missed evolutionary developed over a 100,000 years. Pro tip, it's in parentheses.

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Go on. I'm very interested in learning how 100,000 years of evolution has enabled mankind to develop immunity to a virus it has never seen.

---

Unless you think there have been no new viruses in the past 100,000 years, you need only look at reality.

You can also look at the Covid-19 vaccines, considering all they do is force cells to develop a spike protein the immune system hasn't seen before and get it to gain immunity from it.

You really should probably walk this one back.

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We have surely had plenty of viruses. The point is that having those viruses doesn't give us immunity to viruses (or even close relatives of those viruses) that we haven't seen before.

For that matter, I don't believe that you inherit your parent's immunity to viruses except maybe for viruses for which their DNA has entered our genome. Am I wrong about that?

In other words, that your parents may have had polio, for example, does not mean that you acquired any immunity to polio from them.

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The fatality rate for COVID-19 is about 0.4% overall, meaning 99.6% of those infected with the virus had a successfully immune system response (some more than others). Your immune system is generally pretty good at dealing with viruses. There are, of course, exceptions.

Maybe I'm just not on the same page with others here about what counts as "successful." I think the ability to fight off a virus and then gain memory of that virus to fight it again counts as successful. Some people can't fight it off successfully.

But when 99.6% of people are able to fight it off, I think that counts as successful and shows our immune system has evolved to be able to fight off viruses pretty well.

And I could be totally wrong but my understanding is breastmilk contains antibodies to give babies a headstart. Not everything is passed on, but some is.

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Does the presence of those anbibodies somehow cause the baby to start producing the same antibodies?

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No, it does not.

waitwhat really has no idea how the human immune system works, judging from his/her posts (unless there is some epigenetic mechanism, but I don't believe that has been discovered yet)

Aggie95 said:

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I wish it were a vaccine...like polio, mumps, rhubella, etc.

The number of breakthrough cases are through the roof and will only get worse with each varient. Flu and Covid "vaccines" are merely therapuetical shots for the vast majority of people

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This is so wrong. As someone who is vaccinated I almost wish I had a breakthrough case so I would have natural immunity as well.

70% of population vaccinated, 95-96% of hospitalized are unvaccinated.
Do the math on those risk assessments. Vaccine is an absolute no brainer.

Arguing otherwise makes one look foolish at this point.

Could've stopped after the first 9 words. Meanwhile the Texas State Board of Pharmacy told the Doctors who are still free to practice medicine to continue doing so. Great to see the support where so many federal $ dependent providers have rolled over.

A few musings on your chart

"Healthy US citizens are more likely to die from suicide."

How are they defining "healthy"? If it's BMI <25 and BP <120/80, this chart applies to a relatively small, very lucky subset of folks in the US.

In 2019 the CDC (I know - probably totally fake, but it's the best we have so let's go with it for now) said that 47,511 people died of suicide. Colon cancer deaths the same year were around 53,000. Based on this data, should we cancel all colonoscopies?

When's the last time suicide - or any of the other compared maladies on the list clogged up ER's and/or ICU's?

I'd be curious to see the same chart done for morbidity. I know folks who still have to catch their breath after going up a flight of stairs months after recovering.

Finally - I'd like to see the same chart done for vaccine risk.

Edited: typo in BP.

gkaggie08 said:

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If this was a normal vaccine that had long term effects studied, I might take it.

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There are no long term side effects from vaccines.

Almost all of the side effects are quick and ALL of them show up in the first few weeks.

PJYoung said:

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gkaggie08 said:

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If this was a normal vaccine that had long term effects studied, I might take it.

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There are no long term side effects from vaccines.

Almost all of the side effects are quick and ALL of them show up in the first few weeks.

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Can you show me the study on long term effects including the data from the control group?

Wodanaz said:

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PJYoung said:

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gkaggie08 said:

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If this was a normal vaccine that had long term effects studied, I might take it.

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There are no long term side effects from vaccines.

Almost all of the side effects are quick and ALL of them show up in the first few weeks.

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Can you show me the study on long term effects including the data from the control group?

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Just talking about vaccines in general. Ask any doctor on here.

They include this vaccine in that group.

I think that is the big disconnect. People are worrying about scary 'long-term side effects' that don't happen.

PJYoung said:

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Wodanaz said:

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PJYoung said:

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gkaggie08 said:

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If this was a normal vaccine that had long term effects studied, I might take it.

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There are no long term side effects from vaccines.

Almost all of the side effects are quick and ALL of them show up in the first few weeks.

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Can you show me the study on long term effects including the data from the control group?

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Just talking about vaccines in general. Ask any doctor on here.

They include this vaccine in that group.

I think that is the big disconnect. People are worrying about scary 'long-term side effects' that don't happen.

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Very scientific analysis, thank you!

gkaggie08 said:

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So your kids had the virus, you and your wife were close to them, though vaccinated, and it sounds like they had very mild symptoms(my conclusion), and you have quarantined.

Nothing wrong with that.

But why are you worrying 8 days later if you are 'out of the danger zone'? Your kids were never in the danger zone to begin with and you have the card that wards off the vaccine!

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Back to the politics board.