Let the firestorm begin

9,084 Views | 107 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by mernaggie12
cbaker20
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7:25a, 8/27/21
I think this decision is clearly unethical. I also have a hard time believing there are that many doctors who will draw that line in the sand. Certainly no one in my group is! I have no problem dismissing patients when necessary- abusive behavior to staff, noncompliance (that makes a therapeutic relationship impossible), and serial nonpayment are much larger concerns in my office.

Disease exists. It will never be eradicated. I could unintentionally give someone the flu or whatever before I knew to stay home, vaccinated or not. If that happens, I'm sorry it did but that's life. My patients could return the favor. So what? There's no way of ensuring everyone's safety 100% of the time. The idea that you could is absurd.
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Nasreddin
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In reply to wbt5845 • 7:25a, 8/27/21
Then stop trying to spin it like some kind of threat if "take the vaccine or you're not gonna get treatment." Otherwise it wouldn't have been posted.

Doctors and nurses have been elevated by billboards as some sort of gods. I pointed this out around May of last year.

Like I said...let us know who they are so we can know not to deal with them in the future. There are plenty of other doctors that can consult WebMd or whatever website they use when it goes beyond "here's some antibiotics". People are drawing a line in the sand..these doctors abandoning their oaths to prove their point better understand what they are getting into. The vast majority of the people refusing are the producers...they will be left with the leeches as patients.

I'll add one more thing: it's not free. Nothing is free. The people that don't want to take it are the ones that are paying for it. I'm sure you'll find a friendly nod to take this down as soon as possible.
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Nasreddin
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In reply to cbaker20 • 7:27a, 8/27/21
cbaker20 said:
I think this decision is clearly unethical. I also have a hard time believing there are that many doctors who will draw that line in the sand. Certainly no one in my group is! I have no problem dismissing patients when necessary- abusive behavior to staff, noncompliance (that makes a therapeutic relationship impossible), and serial nonpayment are much larger concerns in my office.

Disease exists. It will never be eradicated. I could unintentionally give someone the flu or whatever before I knew to stay home, vaccinated or not. If that happens, I'm sorry it did but that's life. My patients could return the favor. So what? There's no way of ensuring everyone's safety 100% of the time. The idea that you could is absurd.


Thank you. Side note: it may be that you are a new poster but if not; it's chilling that you'd have to use a sock account to speak your mind.
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wbt5845
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In reply to Nasreddin • 7:28a, 8/27/21
AG
Robin Hood Was A Thief said:
Then stop trying to spin it like some kind of threat if "take the vaccine or you're not gonna get treatment." Otherwise it wouldn't have been posted.
Kinda funny I told you what that article actually said and you then said "then stop trying to spin it" when I clearly just told you the article wasn't spun that way.
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Nasreddin
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In reply to wbt5845 • 7:30a, 8/27/21
You know exactly why these type of articles are posted. Fear. Nothing more.
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cbaker20
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In reply to Nasreddin • 7:34a, 8/27/21
Not a sock. Just a worn out doc that wants less stupid stuff between her and her patients. I lurk but wanted to post on this one because I truly believe this is wrong. I got the vaccine but I do not need my patients to do so. I talk about it with anyone who wants to but I do not push. It's not helpful.
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Nasreddin
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In reply to cbaker20 • 7:35a, 8/27/21
Thank you again for your ethical conduct.
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AgsMyDude
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In reply to P.U.T.U • 7:46a, 8/27/21
AG
P.U.T.U said:
So no longer treat those with lung cancer that smoke? The obese with diabetes? You are a POS of a person, let alone a doctor if you don't want to treat a person for Covid whether they are vaccinated or not

Don't smokers and drinkers have a MUCH tougher time obtaining transplants for lungs/livers?
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P.U.T.U
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In reply to 01agtx • 7:55a, 8/27/21
AG
01agtx said:
terradactylexpress said:
You have to be vaccinated to be a patient at Texas children's, this is nothing new


Not true.
You do not have to be vaccinated if you are a minor but I know there are a few hospitals, St. Jude is one, that are making the parents be vaccinated if they want to visit their kids. Coworker has a kid battling cancer and he said they are making him get the vaccine to be with his kid
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P.U.T.U
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In reply to AgsMyDude • 7:56a, 8/27/21
AG
Not a clue but they can still get treated.
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El Chupacabra
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In reply to GAC06 • 9:04a, 8/27/21
GAC06 said:
FlyRod said:
People aggressively and deliberately getting Covid and then complaining about not getting treated is seriously dystopian sci-fi level whackadoodlrey.


Who is deliberately getting covid? How does one "aggressively" get covid?
By not wearing a mask, leaving your house (except to certain rallies, protests, or fundraisers), and not subscribing to CovidFearPorn.com. Duh.
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bay fan
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In reply to redsquirrelAG • 9:10a, 8/27/21
S
redsquirrelAG said:
It is preventable. Eat healthy. Exercise. Take care of your body. Be cautious of anything you PUT into it. You want to Shame me? Let's get into your personal choices. You vote to kill babies? You fat? You vote for Biden and kill those marines?

If someone isn't wearing seat belt and is in a wreck, they are turned away right?

Demons have been created on this issue due to the lack of logic being applied and the constant FEAR PORN. But force things in to my body and I'm liable to force something back on you. That simple. Come and stick it mother ****er!
Action/reaction. Accept the consequences of your choice squirrel, personal accountability right?
Why is it you want your "freedoms" but don't believe doctors should be able to choose who they treat? Their "freedoms" aren't as important as yours? By the way, your post is hateful and belongs on the politics board.
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bay fan
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In reply to Nasreddin • 9:20a, 8/27/21
S
Robin Hood Was A Thief said:
Then stop trying to spin it like some kind of threat if "take the vaccine or you're not gonna get treatment." Otherwise it wouldn't have been posted.

Doctors and nurses have been elevated by billboards as some sort of gods. I pointed this out around May of last year.

Like I said...let us know who they are so we can know not to deal with them in the future. There are plenty of other doctors that can consult WebMd or whatever website they use when it goes beyond "here's some antibiotics". People are drawing a line in the sand..these doctors abandoning their oaths to prove their point better understand what they are getting into. The vast majority of the people refusing are the producers...they will be left with the leeches as patients.

I'll add one more thing: it's not free. Nothing is free. The people that don't want to take it are the ones that are paying for it. I'm sure you'll find a friendly nod to take this down as soon as possible.
Pretty sure all doctors want to avoid patients like you. You make the point of not wanting to treat patients who lack respect for their knowledge and advice perfectly clear. Oh, and I wonder how many vaccines you paid for it takes to equate to just a single ICU stay..
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gunan01
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In reply to redsquirrelAG • 9:25a, 8/27/21
AG
redsquirrelAG said:
It is preventable. Eat healthy. Exercise. Take care of your body. Be cautious of anything you PUT into it. You want to Shame me? Let's get into your personal choices. You vote to kill babies? You fat? You vote for Biden and kill those marines?

If someone isn't wearing seat belt and is in a wreck, they are turned away right?

Demons have been created on this issue due to the lack of logic being applied and the constant FEAR PORN. But force things in to my body and I'm liable to force something back on you. That simple. Come and stick it mother ****er!


Lol wut
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El Chupacabra
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In reply to bay fan • 9:52a, 8/27/21
bay fan said:
redsquirrelAG said:
It is preventable. Eat healthy. Exercise. Take care of your body. Be cautious of anything you PUT into it. You want to Shame me? Let's get into your personal choices. You vote to kill babies? You fat? You vote for Biden and kill those marines?

If someone isn't wearing seat belt and is in a wreck, they are turned away right?

Demons have been created on this issue due to the lack of logic being applied and the constant FEAR PORN. But force things in to my body and I'm liable to force something back on you. That simple. Come and stick it mother ****er!
Action/reaction. Accept the consequences of your choice squirrel, personal accountability right?
Why is it you want your "freedoms" but don't believe doctors should be able to choose who they treat? Their "freedoms" aren't as important as yours? By the way, your post is hateful and belongs on the politics board.
I am 100% okay with a Dr denying a patient due to vaccination status, BMI, skin color, sexual preference, gender identity, alma mater, favorite NFL team, on and on and on. I'm also okay with a business denying patrons due to mask wearing or not wearing. Or a US hospital/dr telling an illegal to F off.

BUT I want all of those things treated equally, the people who only think Drs should deny unvaxxed believe everything else is discrimination. There's lots of hypocrisy in this world, especially around Covid, try not to perpetuate it.

What about you? Are you okay with Drs/Businesses denying patients/customers for other reasons, or just vax status? Where is your line in denying or granting 'freedoms'?
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Troglodyte
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In reply to aggieheart • 11:10a, 8/27/21
AG
aggieheart said:
Everyone seems to be reacting to this in an expected fashion: how does it affect me? How dare they. They are trying to control me. They are despicable. They are disgusting. This is all a very natural human response.

How about you take a step back and look at it from another perspective. Doctors and other healthcare providers joined the profession to help people be healthy. We have always watched people make bad choices that affected their health but even those that struggle with following our advice at least make an effort and acknowledge that their choices need improvement. We treat these folks for decades. We treat their children, their siblings, their parents. They become family to us.

Now we watch them die a miserable death. It is preventable. They leave grieving wives, husbands, children, and parents looking to us for answers.. They just need to listen to the medical professionals that have their best interest at heart. They let other forces control their emotions and their choices. They die struggling to breathe,

If you don't think that takes an emotional toll on us then you don't have any idea how much of us becomes invested in our patients. Death after death takes its toll and we are affected. I can understand after hearing for the ten thousandth time that "covid has a 98% survival rate; I'm good without the vaccine" amongst the plethora of other reasons to reach a point where you say:" I can't keep watching my patients die because they will not follow my advice and get a vaccine. I will only see those patients that actually value my opinion enough to get the vaccine". Doctors and nurses are emotionally vulnerable too.
Understood, but why are you picking Covid and vaccinations as your hill to die on. I have never heard of doctors refusing treatment to obese diabetics or lung cancer in smokers or brain injuries in football players. It's only unvaccinated Covid patients.

Also, as a medical consultant, its shocking to me that you don't understand your patients hesitancy to take the vaccination. You can definitely have a different opinion and think their hesitancy is unfounded, but to flat out not understand why your patient could think that way is disturbing.
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Nasreddin
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In reply to El Chupacabra • 11:10a, 8/27/21
It's all about provoking fear and creating some sort of enlightened status for the vaxxers. There are people in this thread that are probably high-fiving the idea that docs are turning their backs on the evil, anti-science trumpsters.
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GeographyAg
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12:39p, 8/27/21
AG
I've known antivaxers for over 25 years now. It's always been surprising to me how much they'll demonize Doctors and "Big-Pharma" but then turn to them the minute they get seriously ill.

Us fattys know we're being stupid and go to the doctor and try to follow his advice to lose weight, though it is difficult to stick to, but at least we don't go around telling people the doctors and pharma really want to poison us, or that we know better because we've "done our research."

OTOH, I think most doctors would, of course, go ahead and try to save the life of a patient even if they were "anti-whichever-vaccine-could-have-saved-their-life" just like they'll do their best to save the obese patient or anyone else. I can totally understand them being critical of us not taking their advice, though.
If I’m posting, it’s actually Mrs GeographyAg.
Mr. GeographyAg is a dedicated lurker.
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ham98
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In reply to aggieheart • 1:27p, 8/27/21
aggieheart said:
Everyone seems to be reacting to this in an expected fashion: how does it affect me? How dare they. They are trying to control me. They are despicable. They are disgusting. This is all a very natural human response.

How about you take a step back and look at it from another perspective. Doctors and other healthcare providers joined the profession to help people be healthy. We have always watched people make bad choices that affected their health but even those that struggle with following our advice at least make an effort and acknowledge that their choices need improvement. We treat these folks for decades. We treat their children, their siblings, their parents. They become family to us.

Now we watch them die a miserable death. It is preventable. They leave grieving wives, husbands, children, and parents looking to us for answers.. They just need to listen to the medical professionals that have their best interest at heart. They let other forces control their emotions and their choices. They die struggling to breathe,

If you don't think that takes an emotional toll on us then you don't have any idea how much of us becomes invested in our patients. Death after death takes its toll and we are affected. I can understand after hearing for the ten thousandth time that "covid has a 98% survival rate; I'm good without the vaccine" amongst the plethora of other reasons to reach a point where you say:" I can't keep watching my patients die because they will not follow my advice and get a vaccine. I will only see those patients that actually value my opinion enough to get the vaccine". Doctors and nurses are emotionally vulnerable too.
So you are going to fire all your obese patients right? Obesity is preventable. Obese people leave grieving, wives, husbands, children, and parents looking to you for answers. They just need to listen to the medical professionals that have their best interest at heart. They let other forces control their emotions and their choices. They die struggling to breathe.
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Nasreddin
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In reply to ham98 • 1:29p, 8/27/21
I won't go to a fat doctor.
The Covidian is a strange sort: he both relies on “science” and ignores it. Perhaps because it’s not “science” at all, but rather just the TV.
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Skillet Shot
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In reply to aggieheart • 1:56p, 8/27/21
aggieheart said:
Everyone seems to be reacting to this in an expected fashion: how does it affect me? How dare they. They are trying to control me. They are despicable. They are disgusting. This is all a very natural human response.

How about you take a step back and look at it from another perspective. Doctors and other healthcare providers joined the profession to help people be healthy. We have always watched people make bad choices that affected their health but even those that struggle with following our advice at least make an effort and acknowledge that their choices need improvement. We treat these folks for decades. We treat their children, their siblings, their parents. They become family to us.

Now we watch them die a miserable death. It is preventable. They leave grieving wives, husbands, children, and parents looking to us for answers.. They just need to listen to the medical professionals that have their best interest at heart. They let other forces control their emotions and their choices. They die struggling to breathe,

If you don't think that takes an emotional toll on us then you don't have any idea how much of us becomes invested in our patients. Death after death takes its toll and we are affected. I can understand after hearing for the ten thousandth time that "covid has a 98% survival rate; I'm good without the vaccine" amongst the plethora of other reasons to reach a point where you say:" I can't keep watching my patients die because they will not follow my advice and get a vaccine. I will only see those patients that actually value my opinion enough to get the vaccine". Doctors and nurses are emotionally vulnerable too.


Maybe you should stop treating overweight people, smokers, alcoholics, drug users and any other individual that's lifestyle goes against medical recommendations. I don't understand why a doctors emotional vulnerability should impact a young healthy individuals's personal health decisions.

I do have empathy for the long hours and brutal deaths doctors see and have to go through on a daily basis during this surge. And I am very grateful for their service to the community. But to use that burden to justify not treating patients is where I lose complete respect.
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ramblin_ag02
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5:14p, 8/27/21
AG
This is also a false equivalence. Obesity, drug addiction, and even nicotine addiction are all very difficult things to quit. Things that take a lot of time, effort, and lifelong lifestyle changes. It would not be an exaggeration to call fixing these problems some of the hardest things a person can do. So we advise, we encourage, and we have some empathy for people who are trying and failing.

Getting a vaccine requires none of that. It's not difficult and requires no major lifestyle changes. It takes about 30 minutes. It's incredibly easy. It's also a bad comparison, because obesity and addiction are not contagious. Delta COVID is extremely contagious. If you aren't vaccinated or have certain and documented natural immunity, then you will eventually catch it. You will then spread it to 6-7 other people, who will spread it to 6-7 other people, and on and on. On average 1 in 200 of those people will die. More will get very sick. Vaccination can stop this or drastically slow it down. It only takes a month and it takes almost no sustained effort or willpower.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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Ribbed Paultz
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 5:34p, 8/27/21
bUT wHAt ArE thE lONg TerM SIdE eFfeCTs oF THe vACcINE
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bay fan
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In reply to [removed post] • 6:23p, 8/27/21
S
You realize ability to spread it relates to viral load. Yes, some vaccinated people have high enough viral loads to contribute to the spread but it's far from equally likely.
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ramblin_ag02
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In reply to [removed post] • 6:35p, 8/27/21
AG
Even is the vaccine is only 50% effective against infection from delta, that would drop the number of people you're infecting from 6 to 3 if everyone was vaccinated. That makes a huge difference when we're talking about when you get to population sizes and exponential growth.

Vaccinated people are also 29 times less likely to be hospitalized. So if everyone was vaccinated, we'd have roughly 29 times less people in the hospital with COVID. I know for a fact that at least 2 people have died from non-COVID illnesses due to hospital and ICU overcrowding due to COVID, one in another rural community and one in my hospital. I bet the number is higher than that. If everyone was vaccinated, those people could have been transferred and probably survived. So on several levels getting vaccinated isn't a decision that only applies to you.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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traxter
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In reply to aggierogue • 6:54p, 8/27/21
aggierogue said:
traxter said:
Since when does a doctor have to risk their health, or the health of their staff, and the other patients in their office, to help you? Some doctors fire patients for non-compliance with their medication regimens, or those that clearly do not follow doctor's orders. How is this different?

If you don't like it, go find someone else.
Risk their health? What a load of dung. How is it different than treating a vaccinated person?

And yes, I would find someone else.
I take it you didn't read the the article? Or even the first paragraph?

Essentially, doctors don't exist simply in hospitals. So one question posed by the article is whether doctors should stop accepting patients into their clinical practices if they are unvaccinated.

It does mention the idea of triaging ICU care based on vaccination status, but that is a different concept. In my question above I asked about a doctor's office, not his ICU.


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blacksox
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 7:41p, 8/27/21
ramblin_ag02 said:
This is also a false equivalence. Obesity, drug addiction, and even nicotine addiction are all very difficult things to quit. Things that take a lot of time, effort, and lifelong lifestyle changes. It would not be an exaggeration to call fixing these problems some of the hardest things a person can do. So we advise, we encourage, and we have some empathy for people who are trying and failing.

Getting a vaccine requires none of that. It's not difficult and requires no major lifestyle changes. It takes about 30 minutes. It's incredibly easy. It's also a bad comparison, because obesity and addiction are not contagious. Delta COVID is extremely contagious. If you aren't vaccinated or have certain and documented natural immunity, then you will eventually catch it. You will then spread it to 6-7 other people, who will spread it to 6-7 other people, and on and on. On average 1 in 200 of those people will die. More will get very sick. Vaccination can stop this or drastically slow it down. It only takes a month and it takes almost no sustained effort or willpower.


This accurately sums up the situation. Not that it will do any good. You can read multiple stories right now of non-covid patients dying while waiting for treatment in covid-full ICUs. You could venture over to the CoronaBro board and see a couple of nonvaxxed posters wishing they had been because they're suffering in the hospital with Covid pneumonia. But that won't resonate because reasons.
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traxter
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In reply to blacksox • 8:19p, 8/27/21
Right here in Texas.

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aggieheart
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In reply to Troglodyte • 1:04a, 8/28/21
AG
Troglodyte said:
aggieheart said:
Everyone seems to be reacting to this in an expected fashion: how does it affect me? How dare they. They are trying to control me. They are despicable. They are disgusting. This is all a very natural human response.

How about you take a step back and look at it from another perspective. Doctors and other healthcare providers joined the profession to help people be healthy. We have always watched people make bad choices that affected their health but even those that struggle with following our advice at least make an effort and acknowledge that their choices need improvement. We treat these folks for decades. We treat their children, their siblings, their parents. They become family to us.

Now we watch them die a miserable death. It is preventable. They leave grieving wives, husbands, children, and parents looking to us for answers.. They just need to listen to the medical professionals that have their best interest at heart. They let other forces control their emotions and their choices. They die struggling to breathe,

If you don't think that takes an emotional toll on us then you don't have any idea how much of us becomes invested in our patients. Death after death takes its toll and we are affected. I can understand after hearing for the ten thousandth time that "covid has a 98% survival rate; I'm good without the vaccine" amongst the plethora of other reasons to reach a point where you say:" I can't keep watching my patients die because they will not follow my advice and get a vaccine. I will only see those patients that actually value my opinion enough to get the vaccine". Doctors and nurses are emotionally vulnerable too.
Understood, but why are you picking Covid and vaccinations as your hill to die on. I have never heard of doctors refusing treatment to obese diabetics or lung cancer in smokers or brain injuries in football players. It's only unvaccinated Covid patients.

Also, as a medical consultant, its shocking to me that you don't understand your patients hesitancy to take the vaccination. You can definitely have a different opinion and think their hesitancy is unfounded, but to flat out not understand why your patient could think that way is disturbing.
You are trying too hard. First of all I didn't pick this hill to die on. I haven't refused to and do not plan on refusing to treat unvaxxed patients. I simply tried to give a different perspective about why some practitioners have reached this point. As another doctor posted above physicians are not robots. They take it hard when patients die for whatever reason. There is always the question of could I have done more? Something different? Your lack of understanding that is alarming.

You , like so many think obesity and diabetes are only a result of behavior and choices. That is just flat wrong. Shame on you for not knowing better as a medical consultant. However if we are going to include false equivalent behaviors in medical risks the list is endless and I bet I could find at least five that you are guilty of. None of us are perfect so don't be so quick to look down your nose at others that you believe have bad behaviors that make them unhealthy. And if I had a shot that would prevent people from having diabetes, lung cancer or brain injuries and my patients refused it I would be vexed with that as well.

As for patients hesitancy I do understand that patients are bombarded with a lot of misinformation. They fear the consequences of death from a vaccine that is far safer than the virus. I also understand the the large majority of the population does not comprehend the science and often latch onto misinterpretation of scientific literature from those that either do not understand it or have a different agenda. One of the most frustrating reasons many of my colleagues and I have heard for not getting the vaccine is: I'm not getting it for political reasons. I hate Biden and it is a conspiracy by the democrats. All I can say is It was President Trump that instituted Operation Warp Speed and brought the vaccines to us quickly. It has no effect on their staunch resistance.It is confounding. So I do recognize why patients have a hesitancy but I do wonder why they put their trust more in social media and politicians than those that spend their life trying to save theirs.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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lobopride
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In reply to aggieheart • 5:53a, 8/28/21
aggieheart said:
Everyone seems to be reacting to this in an expected fashion: how does it affect me? How dare they. They are trying to control me. They are despicable. They are disgusting. This is all a very natural human response.

How about you take a step back and look at it from another perspective. Doctors and other healthcare providers joined the profession to help people be healthy. We have always watched people make bad choices that affected their health but even those that struggle with following our advice at least make an effort and acknowledge that their choices need improvement. We treat these folks for decades. We treat their children, their siblings, their parents. They become family to us.

Now we watch them die a miserable death. It is preventable. They leave grieving wives, husbands, children, and parents looking to us for answers.. They just need to listen to the medical professionals that have their best interest at heart. They let other forces control their emotions and their choices. They die struggling to breathe,

If you don't think that takes an emotional toll on us then you don't have any idea how much of us becomes invested in our patients. Death after death takes its toll and we are affected. I can understand after hearing for the ten thousandth time that "covid has a 98% survival rate; I'm good without the vaccine" amongst the plethora of other reasons to reach a point where you say:" I can't keep watching my patients die because they will not follow my advice and get a vaccine. I will only see those patients that actually value my opinion enough to get the vaccine". Doctors and nurses are emotionally vulnerable too.


If you don't do the same for obesity and smoking you're a hypocrite (and I doubt you do).
I am a slave of Christ
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aggierogue
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In reply to bay fan • 11:13a, 8/28/21
AG
bay fan said:
redsquirrelAG said:
It is preventable. Eat healthy. Exercise. Take care of your body. Be cautious of anything you PUT into it. You want to Shame me? Let's get into your personal choices. You vote to kill babies? You fat? You vote for Biden and kill those marines?

If someone isn't wearing seat belt and is in a wreck, they are turned away right?

Demons have been created on this issue due to the lack of logic being applied and the constant FEAR PORN. But force things in to my body and I'm liable to force something back on you. That simple. Come and stick it mother ****er!
Action/reaction. Accept the consequences of your choice squirrel, personal accountability right?
Why is it you want your "freedoms" but don't believe doctors should be able to choose who they treat? Their "freedoms" aren't as important as yours? By the way, your post is hateful and belongs on the politics board.
By the standard you are pushing here, our very own Rex Racer would have been denied treatment.

Yet, I see you on his thread pulling for him, offering prayers, etc.

Do you want unvaccinated people treated by doctors or not?
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aggierogue
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 11:23a, 8/28/21
AG
ramblin_ag02 said:
This is also a false equivalence. Obesity, drug addiction, and even nicotine addiction are all very difficult things to quit. Things that take a lot of time, effort, and lifelong lifestyle changes. It would not be an exaggeration to call fixing these problems some of the hardest things a person can do. So we advise, we encourage, and we have some empathy for people who are trying and failing.

Getting a vaccine requires none of that. It's not difficult and requires no major lifestyle changes. It takes about 30 minutes. It's incredibly easy. It's also a bad comparison, because obesity and addiction are not contagious. Delta COVID is extremely contagious. If you aren't vaccinated or have certain and documented natural immunity, then you will eventually catch it. You will then spread it to 6-7 other people, who will spread it to 6-7 other people, and on and on. On average 1 in 200 of those people will die. More will get very sick. Vaccination can stop this or drastically slow it down. It only takes a month and it takes almost no sustained effort or willpower.
1. It's not a false equivalence imo. People make poor decisions all the time and continue to do it knowing that they are making poor decisions. I don't eat fast food. It takes discipline, but I eat very healthy. It's no more difficult for anyone else. And most everyone who uses drugs start knowing the risks. Even young people are educated on the dangers. Yet, I am nervous about taking a vaccine that we are not sure of the long term risks? So I should be refused medical care, b/c I'm looking out for my long term future? Do you think people like me WANT to get Covid or even WANT to end up in the hospital? Not at all. We've just looked at all sides of the vaccine argument and feel like we may be better off fighting it off naturally. The fact that there are people arguing that doctors should have the right to turn patients away is shocking to me. But I guess the politics of this vaccine argument will turn people who usually have empathy into people willing to let people die without treatment so they an win their argument.

2. Where I am employed there are already vaccinated people getting Covid and spreading it to others. Why are these examples ignored? Plenty of the vaccinated are carrying the same viral load that an unvaccinated person would carry.
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In reply to aggierogue • 11:56a, 8/28/21
S
aggierogue said:
bay fan said:
redsquirrelAG said:
It is preventable. Eat healthy. Exercise. Take care of your body. Be cautious of anything you PUT into it. You want to Shame me? Let's get into your personal choices. You vote to kill babies? You fat? You vote for Biden and kill those marines?

If someone isn't wearing seat belt and is in a wreck, they are turned away right?

Demons have been created on this issue due to the lack of logic being applied and the constant FEAR PORN. But force things in to my body and I'm liable to force something back on you. That simple. Come and stick it mother ****er!
Action/reaction. Accept the consequences of your choice squirrel, personal accountability right?
Why is it you want your "freedoms" but don't believe doctors should be able to choose who they treat? Their "freedoms" aren't as important as yours? By the way, your post is hateful and belongs on the politics board.
By the standard you are pushing here, our very own Rex Racer would have been denied treatment.

Yet, I see you on his thread pulling for him, offering prayers, etc.

Do you want unvaccinated people treated by doctors or not?
Hey I want everyone to survive, which is why I am vaccinated. If I can do my share to cut the spread AND better save guarding myself I literally see ZERO reason why I would not.

I am not pushing a standard other then your own. If you believe you have a choice about your personal choices, it only makes sense to me you believe others also have the right to make choices. If a doctor is frustrated and tired of people ignoring an obvious and easy way to avoid tragedy, there is zero reason in my books he can't choose to not take on people unwilling to be vaccinated..every action has a reaction. And to that end, you can choose a doc who doesn't mind. Free choice right?

If a doctor or a hospital could save only one person due being overcrowded, I would indeed dedicate my resources to the vaccinated person. That said, of course I am thrilled Rex is recovering and that choice didn't have to be made. In his own words Rogue, he wishes he'd been vaccinated. In my own words I a very very glad he was able to receive care.
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aggierogue
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In reply to bay fan • 12:40p, 8/28/21
AG

Quote:
Hey I want everyone to survive, which is why I am vaccinated. If I can do my share to cut the spread AND better save guarding myself I literally see ZERO reason why I would not.
While we won't agree on this, everyone getting vaccinated is not a guarantee that you are better safeguarding yourself.

Quote:
I am not pushing a standard other then your own. If you believe you have a choice about your personal choices, it only makes sense to me you believe others also have the right to make choices. If a doctor is frustrated and tired of people ignoring an obvious and easy way to avoid tragedy, there is zero reason in my books he can't choose to not take on people unwilling to be vaccinated..every action has a reaction. And to that end, you can choose a doc who doesn't mind. Free choice right?
I am not a doctor. A doctor's job is to save lives. They take an oath. The standards are not the same. I'm a teacher. I don't get to choose which kids I decide to educate and which ones I don't, even in the private sector. If' I'm a police officer/firefighter/etc, I don't get to decide who I decide to help and who I can ignore. Applying personal choice to an individual's decisions and trying to hold it to the same standard as a doctor or many other professions is apples/oranges. You're smart enough to realize this. A police officer/firefighter doesn't get to decide not to help the reckless who knowingly put themselves in harms way. I could give plenty of examples. Hell we have private business owners who can't choose who they bake a cake for.

Quote:
If a doctor or a hospital could save only one person due being overcrowded, I would indeed dedicate my resources to the vaccinated person.
One could make an argument that the unvaccinated should receive treatment due to the case they are a higher risk of complications or dying.

Quote:
That said, of course I am thrilled Rex is recovering and that choice didn't have to be made. In his own words Rogue, he wishes he'd been vaccinated. In my own words I a very very glad he was able to receive care.
Glad he received care and that the choice didn't have to be made is exactly where I stand. Making an argument that docs should have the option to turn people away would prevent people like him from getting care. How RR feels about the vaccine after he got sick is irrelevant to this conversation.
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