ramblin_ag02 said:

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This is also a false equivalence. Obesity, drug addiction, and even nicotine addiction are all very difficult things to quit. Things that take a lot of time, effort, and lifelong lifestyle changes. It would not be an exaggeration to call fixing these problems some of the hardest things a person can do. So we advise, we encourage, and we have some empathy for people who are trying and failing.

Getting a vaccine requires none of that. It's not difficult and requires no major lifestyle changes. It takes about 30 minutes. It's incredibly easy. It's also a bad comparison, because obesity and addiction are not contagious. Delta COVID is extremely contagious. If you aren't vaccinated or have certain and documented natural immunity, then you will eventually catch it. You will then spread it to 6-7 other people, who will spread it to 6-7 other people, and on and on. On average 1 in 200 of those people will die. More will get very sick. Vaccination can stop this or drastically slow it down. It only takes a month and it takes almost no sustained effort or willpower.

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Just adding this here, can't remember where I saw it posted first.



Credit to Christopher and the others that are dying but still sticking by their choice to not get a free vaccine that could have prevented their suffering, hospital bill, and grief for their family.

aggieheart said:

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Everyone seems to be reacting to this in an expected fashion: how does it affect me? How dare they. They are trying to control me. They are despicable. They are disgusting. This is all a very natural human response.

How about you take a step back and look at it from another perspective. Doctors and other healthcare providers joined the profession to help people be healthy. We have always watched people make bad choices that affected their health but even those that struggle with following our advice at least make an effort and acknowledge that their choices need improvement. We treat these folks for decades. We treat their children, their siblings, their parents. They become family to us.

Now we watch them die a miserable death. It is preventable. They leave grieving wives, husbands, children, and parents looking to us for answers.. They just need to listen to the medical professionals that have their best interest at heart. They let other forces control their emotions and their choices. They die struggling to breathe,

If you don't think that takes an emotional toll on us then you don't have any idea how much of us becomes invested in our patients. Death after death takes its toll and we are affected. I can understand after hearing for the ten thousandth time that "covid has a 98% survival rate; I'm good without the vaccine" amongst the plethora of other reasons to reach a point where you say:" I can't keep watching my patients die because they will not follow my advice and get a vaccine. I will only see those patients that actually value my opinion enough to get the vaccine". Doctors and nurses are emotionally vulnerable too.

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So all the morbidly obese patients with type 2 diabetes aren't allowed in your office either?

Don't pretend this is somehow defendable in any way.

aggierogue said:

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Quote:

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Hey I want everyone to survive, which is why I am vaccinated. If I can do my share to cut the spread AND better save guarding myself I literally see ZERO reason why I would not.

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While we won't agree on this, everyone getting vaccinated is not a guarantee that you are better safeguarding yourself.

Quote:

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I am not pushing a standard other then your own. If you believe you have a choice about your personal choices, it only makes sense to me you believe others also have the right to make choices. If a doctor is frustrated and tired of people ignoring an obvious and easy way to avoid tragedy, there is zero reason in my books he can't choose to not take on people unwilling to be vaccinated..every action has a reaction. And to that end, you can choose a doc who doesn't mind. Free choice right?

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I am not a doctor. A doctor's job is to save lives. They take an oath. The standards are not the same. I'm a teacher. I don't get to choose which kids I decide to educate and which ones I don't, even in the private sector. If' I'm a police officer/firefighter/etc, I don't get to decide who I decide to help and who I can ignore. Applying personal choice to an individual's decisions and trying to hold it to the same standard as a doctor or many other professions is apples/oranges. You're smart enough to realize this. A police officer/firefighter doesn't get to decide not to help the reckless who knowingly put themselves in harms way. I could give plenty of examples. Hell we have private business owners who can't choose who they bake a cake for.

Quote:

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If a doctor or a hospital could save only one person due being overcrowded, I would indeed dedicate my resources to the vaccinated person.

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One could make an argument that the unvaccinated should receive treatment due to the case they are a higher risk of complications or dying.

Quote:

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That said, of course I am thrilled Rex is recovering and that choice didn't have to be made. In his own words Rogue, he wishes he'd been vaccinated. In my own words I a very very glad he was able to receive care.

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Glad he received care and that the choice didn't have to be made is exactly where I stand. Making an argument that docs should have the option to turn people away would prevent people like him from getting care. How RR feels about the vaccine after he got sick is irrelevant to this conversation.

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I don't think there is anyway to refute the results of the vaccine as it relates to hospitalization. There is literally no way to believe an unvaccinated person has the same odds of surviving as a vaccinated one, the hospitalization stats don't lie.

Honestly, if your classes were filled with rotten kids and parents who didn't support you, you'd eventually consider what changes you could make to avoid daily misery be it a new district or career. If a person does not trust a doctors advice, or worse is openly dismissive there is no point in pursuing that relationship. Simply go find a doctor who does not mind..if you can, and keep your life insurance current for your family, just in case.

bay fan said:

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aggierogue said:

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Quote:

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Hey I want everyone to survive, which is why I am vaccinated. If I can do my share to cut the spread AND better save guarding myself I literally see ZERO reason why I would not.

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While we won't agree on this, everyone getting vaccinated is not a guarantee that you are better safeguarding yourself.

Quote:

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I am not pushing a standard other then your own. If you believe you have a choice about your personal choices, it only makes sense to me you believe others also have the right to make choices. If a doctor is frustrated and tired of people ignoring an obvious and easy way to avoid tragedy, there is zero reason in my books he can't choose to not take on people unwilling to be vaccinated..every action has a reaction. And to that end, you can choose a doc who doesn't mind. Free choice right?

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I am not a doctor. A doctor's job is to save lives. They take an oath. The standards are not the same. I'm a teacher. I don't get to choose which kids I decide to educate and which ones I don't, even in the private sector. If' I'm a police officer/firefighter/etc, I don't get to decide who I decide to help and who I can ignore. Applying personal choice to an individual's decisions and trying to hold it to the same standard as a doctor or many other professions is apples/oranges. You're smart enough to realize this. A police officer/firefighter doesn't get to decide not to help the reckless who knowingly put themselves in harms way. I could give plenty of examples. Hell we have private business owners who can't choose who they bake a cake for.

Quote:

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If a doctor or a hospital could save only one person due being overcrowded, I would indeed dedicate my resources to the vaccinated person.

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One could make an argument that the unvaccinated should receive treatment due to the case they are a higher risk of complications or dying.

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I don't think there is anyway to refute the results of the vaccine as it relates to hospitalization. There is literally no way to believe an unvaccinated person has the same odds of surviving as a vaccinated one, the hospitalization stats don't lie.

Honestly, if your classes were filled with rotten kids and parents who didn't support you, you'd eventually consider what changes you could make to avoid daily misery be it a new district or career. If a person does not trust a doctors advice, or worse is openly dismissive there is no point in pursuing that relationship. Simply go find a doctor who does not mind..if you can, and keep your life insurance current for your family, just in case.

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Here's a study to refute it.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/uk-public-health-briefing-shows-65-of-delta-variant-deaths-are-in-the-vaccinated/
Or this one
https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/nearly-60-of-hospitalized-covid-19-patients-in-israel-fully-vaccinated-study-finds.html

My prediction is, as vaccination rates increase in this country, the rates of the vaccinated who are hospitalized will increase also. The UK and Israel have high vaccination rates and that's the trend there. Pfizer, Moderna and J&J, never claimed the vaccine would prevent Covid and with the Delta variant, Pfizer is less than 50% at preventing Covid. So I'm not sure why anyone would not treat someone who was unvaccinated, knowing that anyone could get it.

bay fan said:

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aggierogue said:

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Quote:

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Hey I want everyone to survive, which is why I am vaccinated. If I can do my share to cut the spread AND better save guarding myself I literally see ZERO reason why I would not.

---

While we won't agree on this, everyone getting vaccinated is not a guarantee that you are better safeguarding yourself.

Quote:

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I am not pushing a standard other then your own. If you believe you have a choice about your personal choices, it only makes sense to me you believe others also have the right to make choices. If a doctor is frustrated and tired of people ignoring an obvious and easy way to avoid tragedy, there is zero reason in my books he can't choose to not take on people unwilling to be vaccinated..every action has a reaction. And to that end, you can choose a doc who doesn't mind. Free choice right?

---

I am not a doctor. A doctor's job is to save lives. They take an oath. The standards are not the same. I'm a teacher. I don't get to choose which kids I decide to educate and which ones I don't, even in the private sector. If' I'm a police officer/firefighter/etc, I don't get to decide who I decide to help and who I can ignore. Applying personal choice to an individual's decisions and trying to hold it to the same standard as a doctor or many other professions is apples/oranges. You're smart enough to realize this. A police officer/firefighter doesn't get to decide not to help the reckless who knowingly put themselves in harms way. I could give plenty of examples. Hell we have private business owners who can't choose who they bake a cake for.

Quote:

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If a doctor or a hospital could save only one person due being overcrowded, I would indeed dedicate my resources to the vaccinated person.

---

One could make an argument that the unvaccinated should receive treatment due to the case they are a higher risk of complications or dying.

Quote:

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That said, of course I am thrilled Rex is recovering and that choice didn't have to be made. In his own words Rogue, he wishes he'd been vaccinated. In my own words I a very very glad he was able to receive care.

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Glad he received care and that the choice didn't have to be made is exactly where I stand. Making an argument that docs should have the option to turn people away would prevent people like him from getting care. How RR feels about the vaccine after he got sick is irrelevant to this conversation.

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I don't think there is anyway to refute the results of the vaccine as it relates to hospitalization. There is literally no way to believe an unvaccinated person has the same odds of surviving as a vaccinated one, the hospitalization stats don't lie.

Honestly, if your classes were filled with rotten kids and parents who didn't support you, you'd eventually consider what changes you could make to avoid daily misery be it a new district or career. If a person does not trust a doctors advice, or worse is openly dismissive there is no point in pursuing that relationship. Simply go find a doctor who does not mind..if you can, and keep your life insurance current for your family, just in case.

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Sure I could quit and find another school to work for. And I still wouldn't be able to decide who I accept and who I deny to my classroom.

Funny he just validated your point...

Educators, police officers, and firefighters are PUBLIC servants, funded by public taxes. Doctors are typically private.

Doctors also make determinations about who to treat all the time. When my son was two, he was rushed to Children's Hospital in Dallas from his pediatrician's office by ambulance due to asthma. We spent the day in the ER. His asthma was controlled by oxygen, but when oxygen was removed, his levels dropped to what they were in the pediatrician's office. When we arrived, they said he would be admitted, but they needed to wait for a bed. More severe cases kept arriving and we were told we were going home about nine that night despite him not improving. After our pediatrician intervened, they found a bed somehow. I learned a few things that day, one of which was that doctors make tough decisions about who they treat.

Good grief. So that's your argument for the the ethical decision of saving lives? "They're private!"

I've already made the case for teachers who work in private schools. They don't get to choose who they teach either. Not that it matters.

Why would doctors be held to any part of their Hippocratic oath? They can just claim "I'm private," and do whatever they want.

Good grief. I'm not arguing FOR it. Just explaining the difference.

cc_ag92 said:

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Good grief. I'm not arguing FOR it. Just explaining the difference.

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It's a straw man argument. The reason this is a controversial topic is because it's unethical. I can understand a pediatrician requiring standard vaccinations to accept a patient. Our pediatrician requires the same. However those "patients" are not standing at their door dying and in need of immediate treatment. If a doctor refuses a person in need of immediate care on the sole objection of their vaccine status, that is unethical.

I think the vast, vast majority of physicians would treat a patient regardless of vaccination status. I think it's understandable why many people don't get vaccinated. There's a lot of complicated information and misinformation out there and most people I know seem to minimize the direct risk to themselves. I also understand why physicians get frustrated. It's physically and emotionally exhausting to care for covid patients or to work in a hospital that is disrupted due to being full of unvaccinated covid patients.

All of that being said, when there is a shortage of resources (hospital beds, ventilators, etc.) then allocation of those resources is going to go toward those with the highest likelihood for a good outcome which in this case is probably going to be the vaccinated person. It won't be the only factor in the decision but it will play a roll. Like others have mentioned, it happens in medicine already. Active smokers and drinkers can't get transplants. There are BMI limits on numerous surgeries including joint replacements. IV drug users with endocarditis usually only get one chance at valve replacement.

Media Fear Mongering. Shameful.

aggierogue said:

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bay fan said:

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aggierogue said:

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Quote:

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Hey I want everyone to survive, which is why I am vaccinated. If I can do my share to cut the spread AND better save guarding myself I literally see ZERO reason why I would not.

---

While we won't agree on this, everyone getting vaccinated is not a guarantee that you are better safeguarding yourself.

Quote:

---

I am not pushing a standard other then your own. If you believe you have a choice about your personal choices, it only makes sense to me you believe others also have the right to make choices. If a doctor is frustrated and tired of people ignoring an obvious and easy way to avoid tragedy, there is zero reason in my books he can't choose to not take on people unwilling to be vaccinated..every action has a reaction. And to that end, you can choose a doc who doesn't mind. Free choice right?

---

I am not a doctor. A doctor's job is to save lives. They take an oath. The standards are not the same. I'm a teacher. I don't get to choose which kids I decide to educate and which ones I don't, even in the private sector. If' I'm a police officer/firefighter/etc, I don't get to decide who I decide to help and who I can ignore. Applying personal choice to an individual's decisions and trying to hold it to the same standard as a doctor or many other professions is apples/oranges. You're smart enough to realize this. A police officer/firefighter doesn't get to decide not to help the reckless who knowingly put themselves in harms way. I could give plenty of examples. Hell we have private business owners who can't choose who they bake a cake for.

Quote:

---

If a doctor or a hospital could save only one person due being overcrowded, I would indeed dedicate my resources to the vaccinated person.

---

One could make an argument that the unvaccinated should receive treatment due to the case they are a higher risk of complications or dying.

Quote:

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That said, of course I am thrilled Rex is recovering and that choice didn't have to be made. In his own words Rogue, he wishes he'd been vaccinated. In my own words I a very very glad he was able to receive care.

---

Glad he received care and that the choice didn't have to be made is exactly where I stand. Making an argument that docs should have the option to turn people away would prevent people like him from getting care. How RR feels about the vaccine after he got sick is irrelevant to this conversation.

---

I don't think there is anyway to refute the results of the vaccine as it relates to hospitalization. There is literally no way to believe an unvaccinated person has the same odds of surviving as a vaccinated one, the hospitalization stats don't lie.

Honestly, if your classes were filled with rotten kids and parents who didn't support you, you'd eventually consider what changes you could make to avoid daily misery be it a new district or career. If a person does not trust a doctors advice, or worse is openly dismissive there is no point in pursuing that relationship. Simply go find a doctor who does not mind..if you can, and keep your life insurance current for your family, just in case.

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Sure I could quit and find another school to work for. And I still wouldn't be able to decide who I accept and who I deny to my classroom.

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That's your chosen profession. You could become a tutor and choose your clients. The point is the choice is yours just as it should be for everyone!

aggierogue said:

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Good grief. So that's your argument for the the ethical decision of saving lives? "They're private!"

I've already made the case for teachers who work in private schools. They don't get to choose who they teach either. Not that it matters.

Why would doctors be held to any part of their Hippocratic oath? They can just claim "I'm private," and do whatever they want.

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Do you really believe kids aren't kicked out of private schools all the time for failing to not follow the rules? Of course they are.
Oh and by the way, I am not suggesting anyone in immediate need of medical care not receive it unless it's a triage situation in which case the vaccinated person has the best chance to survive. I am suggesting a doctor has the right to not accept new patients into their practice if they choose to make vaccination a criteria.

bay fan said:

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aggierogue said:

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Good grief. So that's your argument for the the ethical decision of saving lives? "They're private!"

I've already made the case for teachers who work in private schools. They don't get to choose who they teach either. Not that it matters.

Why would doctors be held to any part of their Hippocratic oath? They can just claim "I'm private," and do whatever they want.

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Do you really believe kids aren't kicked out of private schools all the time for failing to not follow the rules? Of course they are.
Oh and by the way, I am not suggesting anyone in immediate need of medical care not receive it unless it's a triage situation in which case the vaccinated person has the best chance to survive. I am suggesting a doctor has the right to not accept new patients into their practice if they choose to make vaccination a criteria.

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The private school argument you're trying to make is silly.

I don't have a problem with a doctor not accepting new patients in their office. I talking strictly hospital and ER facilities.

You brought up private schools not me, you just don't care for my answer.

Then we don't disagree other then you don't think vaccine status should be factored into triage while I do.

bay fan said:

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You brought up private schools not me, you just don't care for my answer.

Then we don't disagree other then you don't think vaccine status should be factored into triage while I do.

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Not about not liking your answer. It makes no sense. I don't get to choose who I teach, and docs shouldn't get to turn away patients in emergency situations. You said I can change jobs. So can they. You continue to talk out of both sides of your mouth just like when you root for Rex Racer and say you're glad he got treatment and then argue that a doc should be able to turn people like him away.

Don't fake empathize when you cheerlead for docs to turn people like him away on vax status.

I don't really want to get into this argument, but I do want to point out that teachers CAN and DO decide who they want to teach, at least I know they do in some districts. I've seen it happen, and heard teachers talk about transferring kids to other teachers.

I do think, ethically, doctors should *and do* treat anyone who walks in the door if they can.

https://www.thehastingscenter.org/briefingbook/conscience-clauses-health-care-providers-and-parents/

Doctors can morally object to providing legal care to patients. Usually this comes up with abortion. In the case of a moral objection they are required to minimize the disruption of that patient's care which usually means they find someone else who will provide the care.

littledude said:

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https://www.thehastingscenter.org/briefingbook/conscience-clauses-health-care-providers-and-parents/

Doctors can morally object to providing legal care to patients. Usually this comes up with abortion. In the case of a moral objection they are required to minimize the disruption of that patient's care which usually means they find someone else who will provide the care.

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You're right. And they should have that right, absolutely. I wasn't thinking of that. I was thinking only of life saving treatment, not participating in murder of the unborn.

Sometimes the murder of the unborn is lifesaving for the mother. It's a difficult position to be in, especially when the mother knew she shouldn't get pregnant because neither she nor the child would survive the pregnancy. Most of this stuff is not as black and white as people want it to be. And most physicians just want to help relieve people's suffering. It's not an easy task.

littledude said:

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Sometimes the murder of the unborn is lifesaving for the mother. It's a difficult position to be in, especially when the mother knew she shouldn't get pregnant because neither she nor the child would not survive the pregnancy. Most of this stuff is not as black and white as people want it to be. And most physicians just want to help relieve people's suffering. It's not an easy task.

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If it really, truly is lifesaving for the mother then I understand it. I think that's very rare but now we've strayed very far from the topic.

I totally agree. Most physicians want to relieve suffering, they care for the patients, and they are ethical. I hate the demonizing of doctors that takes place so often in this vaccination discussion.

aggieheart said:

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Everyone seems to be reacting to this in an expected fashion: how does it affect me? How dare they. They are trying to control me. They are despicable. They are disgusting. This is all a very natural human response.

How about you take a step back and look at it from another perspective. Doctors and other healthcare providers joined the profession to help people be healthy. We have always watched people make bad choices that affected their health but even those that struggle with following our advice at least make an effort and acknowledge that their choices need improvement. We treat these folks for decades. We treat their children, their siblings, their parents. They become family to us.

Now we watch them die a miserable death. It is preventable. They leave grieving wives, husbands, children, and parents looking to us for answers.. They just need to listen to the medical professionals that have their best interest at heart. They let other forces control their emotions and their choices. They die struggling to breathe,

If you don't think that takes an emotional toll on us then you don't have any idea how much of us becomes invested in our patients. Death after death takes its toll and we are affected. I can understand after hearing for the ten thousandth time that "covid has a 98% survival rate; I'm good without the vaccine" amongst the plethora of other reasons to reach a point where you say:" I can't keep watching my patients die because they will not follow my advice and get a vaccine. I will only see those patients that actually value my opinion enough to get the vaccine". Doctors and nurses are emotionally vulnerable too.

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Not sure what line you practice in, but would you treat a lung cancer patient who you repeatedly told to stop smoking?

Have y'all heard that police won't protect those who have a criminal record? Or the lifeguard who won't jump in to save someone who didn't produce evidence that they can swim beforehand? How about the soldiers in the battlefield who are trained to render aid to even the enemies. Our tax payer money literally went to insurgents in Iraq to be treated in U.S. hospitals.

What a time to be alive. Y'all are ****in crazy. Here's to a 99.999% survival rate.

aggierogue said:

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bay fan said:

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You brought up private schools not me, you just don't care for my answer.

Then we don't disagree other then you don't think vaccine status should be factored into triage while I do.

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Not about not liking your answer. It makes no sense. I don't get to choose who I teach, and docs shouldn't get to turn away patients in emergency situations. You said I can change jobs. So can they. You continue to talk out of both sides of your mouth just like when you root for Rex Racer and say you're glad he got treatment and then argue that a doc should be able to turn people like him away.

Don't fake empathize when you cheerlead for docs to turn people like him away on vax status.

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That's what you took from this back and forth? Um, clearly a waste of my time. Hope you have life insurance for your family.

nm

The reactions to this article are overblown.

1. A family medicine physician said that his clinic is no longer seeing patients who are not vaccinated which is similar to requirements that pediatric clinics establish. Clinics, for the most part, are not providing emergent, life saving care. That is what the Emergency Department is for. Emergency Departments are required by law, EMTALA, to provide stabilization and treatment to all patients.

2. A task force was discussing triage in the event of limited hospital capacity and then backtracked, saying that would not use vaccination status to determine bed utilization.

Get vaccinated.

traxter said:

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Since when does a doctor have to risk their health, or the health of their staff, and the other patients in their office, to help you? Some doctors fire patients for non-compliance with their medication regimens, or those that clearly do not follow doctor's orders. How is this different?

If you don't like it, go find someone else.

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All the prehospital medical providers would like a word. Part of the understanding when becoming a medical provider is you will be facing risks to health.

If a patient is sick when we arrive on scene, it is unethical as well as against the law to refuse to provide care.

But you wouldn't go to your PCP if you needed emergent care. There is a difference.

Exactly. People are conflating emergent care and longitudinal care.

Charpie said:

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But you wouldn't go to your PCP if you needed emergent care. There is a difference.

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Have you worked in EMS? Want to come do a ride along? The 911 system is abused by people who call for non emergent reasons.

A PCP, an ER DOC or any other medical professional is not going to fix the health problems of America. People need to quit eating ****ty food, be physically active and sleep.

There is a difference.

mernaggie12 said:

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Exactly. People are conflating emergent care and longitudinal care.

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Okay doc. Will you write me a prescription for a magic pill to cure all my ailments?

What does you sarcastic response have to do with anything I said?

You're a paramedic. You aren't a doc. You're job is to analyze and decide what to do next. No one is calling y'all to write scripts or get medical advice. It's really apples and oranges.