What's the goal?

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Seersucker Ag 2011
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3:28p, 8/22/21
AG
I'm sincerely asking the question below. I know how divisive of an issue COVID is. As someone who has more or less lived his life as normally as is allowed, I'm trying to understand the other side.

For those who believe that some combination of masking/social distancing/vaccination requirements/etc. are necessary, what is the goal that you're hoping to get to where you say that COVID is defeated and/or not worth worrying about anymore? When can things return to normal?

Knowing that 100% vaccination won't happen unless forced at gunpoint, what are you looking for?

It's easy for both sides to yell at each other and launch ad hominem attacks. But, knowing that COVID is here to stay, what stats/metrics/goals must be met for you to say that the need to worry about COVID or to live differently than we did pre-COVID is necessary?
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Dan Scott
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3:37p, 8/22/21
AG
For me it's hospitalization. 3 months ago I stopped caring about Covid. Starting a few weeks ago when hospitals started filling up and my nurse friends started telling me it's getting bad again, then I started to care a little more.

I care more, but haven't changed anything. Maybe mass casualties of vaccinated people since I'm vaccinated.
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Gordo14
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In reply to Seersucker Ag 2011 • 3:48p, 8/22/21
Seersucker Ag 2011 said:
I'm sincerely asking the question below. I know how divisive of an issue COVID is. As someone who has more or less lived his life as normally as is allowed, I'm trying to understand the other side.

For those who believe that some combination of masking/social distancing/vaccination requirements/etc. are necessary, what is the goal that you're hoping to get to where you say that COVID is defeated and/or not worth worrying about anymore? When can things return to normal?

Knowing that 100% vaccination won't happen unless forced at gunpoint, what are you looking for?

It's easy for both sides to yell at each other and launch ad hominem attacks. But, knowing that COVID is here to stay, what stats/metrics/goals must be met for you to say that the need to worry about COVID or to live differently than we did pre-COVID is necessary?


The goal is to manage the burden on the healthcare system by slowing the spread of the virus and/or improving the collective immunity of society. It will be over when society has enough collective immunity that hospitals don't have to change the way they operate to accommodate COVID patients. I think that criteria will be met after this winter. But until then I think it's a bit selfish/small-minded to ignore what is happening. COVID is more of a systemic issue than an individual one, which is why most people outside of the texags F16 bubble roll their eyes when you try to make the situation about you.

What I'm looking for is for people to actually look at the real data behind the vaccine instead of rush to turn yourself into some sort of victim and then make up bs to justify why that's the case afterwards. A perfect example is the "not FDA approved" banner. Looks like it will be FDA approved on Monday - how many of those people are going to then get a vaccine. None. It was just some convenient excuse they could make at the time to be a victim. I'm not asking for government mandates and there likely won't be. But anti-intellectual populist rhetoric is largely how people justify not getting the vaccine and it's frustrating. A lot of people outside of yourself are exposed to your decisions. I would like to see us get as close to 100% of adults vaccinated by choice as physically possible.

I don't worry about covid for me or my family. We are all vaccinated. I worry about my community. I basically live the same way as I did before COVID. But we as a society need to be in control so that we can manage covid. That's not a true metric, but we are not in control right now.
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t - cam
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3:54p, 8/22/21
AG
I was completely cool with everyone making their own choice once the vaccine was mostly available to everyone. I have been surprised though in the amount of people that would refuse it. I kind of figured we would get 75 to 80 % no problem enabling the medical system to have ample capacity to cover the rest. Since that seems unlikely to happen we need to either create more space so I have a place to go when I have a heart attack
or other measures may be needed keep people out of the hospital.

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Another Doug
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4:06p, 8/22/21
AG
I believe "some combination of masking/social distancing/vaccination requirements/etc. are necessary" and I have lived a normal life.

Most of the COVID changes have been a net positive for me and my family. Work from home options and less work travel is pretty nice. Work meetings via Zoom/Teams are better than in person. Curbside options everywhere is awesome. Driving around and listening to music with my kids has increased 1000%.

I would say the only negative so far is between April and January 2020 I only saw my parents a few times. Every eligible family member I know has gotten the vaccine with the only side effect was feeling crappy for a day. I stopped masks for a while, but do it again in public buildings now that delta is here. I know they work in one respect, if people see you wearing one, they are more likely to keep their distance.

As far as public health goes, I think its important not to just give up and let it run wild. The longer you can protect at risk people, the more time science has to work on treatments. IMO, the only people being a little ***** about it, are people that will always find something to be a little ***** about.
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GAC06
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In reply to Another Doug • 4:22p, 8/22/21
AG
Another Doug said:
I believe "some combination of masking/social distancing/vaccination requirements/etc. are necessary" and I have lived a normal life.

Most of the COVID changes have been a net positive for me and my family. Work from home options and less work travel is pretty nice. Work meetings via Zoom/Teams are better than in person. Curbside options everywhere is awesome. Driving around and listening to music with my kids has increased 1000%.

I would say the only negative so far is between April and January 2020 I only saw my parents a few times. Every eligible family member I know has gotten the vaccine with the only side effect was feeling crappy for a day. I stopped masks for a while, but do it again in public buildings now that delta is here. I know they work in one respect, if people see you wearing one, they are more likely to keep their distance.

As far as public health goes, I think its important not to just give up and let it run wild. The longer you can protect at risk people, the more time science has to work on treatments. IMO, the only people being a little ***** about it, are people that will always find something to be a little ***** about.


"I believe in authoritarian restrictions because it's been nice for me."

"I think it's important for everyone else to feel the same way even if it's crushing them."

Pretty much sums up the covidian mindset.
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Another Doug
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In reply to GAC06 • 4:48p, 8/22/21
AG
Guy asked for personal opinions and I gave mine. Sorry you are so angry.

How does me personally thinking vaccines/social distancing is a good idea, mean I support "authoritarian restrictions". You 16chan types see bogeymen everywhere.
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GAC06
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In reply to Another Doug • 5:01p, 8/22/21
AG
I'm not angry. I think it's sad. The "we're all in this together" line has always been nonsense. People who were or felt at risk and people who preferred staying home and didn't suffer economically parroted that line out of selfishness.
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Another Doug
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In reply to GAC06 • 5:06p, 8/22/21
AG
Again where does my support of "authoritarian restrictions" come in?
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cone
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In reply to GAC06 • 5:07p, 8/22/21
AG
being able to work for home during this has been the absolute height of privilege
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St Hedwig Aggie
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In reply to t - cam • 5:08p, 8/22/21
AG
t - cam said:
I was completely cool with everyone making their own choice once the vaccine was mostly available to everyone. I have been surprised though in the amount of people that would refuse it. I kind of figured we would get 75 to 80 % no problem enabling the medical system to have ample capacity to cover the rest. Since that seems unlikely to happen we need to either create more space so I have a place to go when I have a heart attack
or other measures may be needed keep people out of the hospital.


Vaccination rates in Texas as of 20 Aug

67.5% of people 12 and older (1 shot)
55% of people 12 and older (fully vaccinated)

For a state with ~24,000,000 vaccine eligible residents, that's impressive any way you slice it.
Make Mental Asylums Great Again!
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GAC06
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In reply to Another Doug • 5:11p, 8/22/21
AG
You said you're in favor of masking/ social distancing/vaccine "requirements". As cone pointed out, it's easy to call for requirements/mandates/restrictions when you're benefiting from the pain of others. The height of privilege and hypocrisy.
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St Hedwig Aggie
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In reply to GAC06 • 5:11p, 8/22/21
AG
GAC06 said:
The "we're all in this together" line has always been nonsense .

Absolutely.
Make Mental Asylums Great Again!
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Another Doug
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In reply to GAC06 • 5:25p, 8/22/21
AG
GAC06 said:
You said you're in favor of masking/ social distancing/vaccine "requirements". As cone pointed out, it's easy to call for requirements/mandates/restrictions when you're benefiting from the pain of others. The height of privilege and hypocrisy.

You left off "some" and grouped "requirements" with the other two. Almost all the requirements these days aren't coming from the state/fed so it would be silly to say this is some sort of authoritarian regime. Yes, some places have vaccine requirements now, but guess what, vaccine requirements aren't a new thing. I actually went to a public university in Texas that required vaccines.

As far as "you're benefiting from the pain of others. The height of privilege and hypocrisy." You sounds like a ****ing liberal. I have no idea what you are talking about, but get over it snowflake.


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GAC06
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In reply to Another Doug • 5:34p, 8/22/21
AG
You have enjoyed your vacation but think those who criticize are *****ing and will ***** about anything. Great self awareness there, buddy. Sorry you're angry and can't control yourself.
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ReloadAg
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In reply to Seersucker Ag 2011 • 6:37p, 8/22/21
AG
I haven't cared from day 1. I saw this for what it is almost immediately and as a result my family has lived life normally (or as normally as we can get away with in certain situations) for 18 months now. We never stayed home to stay "safe", shirk mask requirements as much as possible and I've never worked from home. Screw all of this nonsense.
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dlp3719
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8:33p, 8/22/21
AG
My only real concern is for the unvaxxed who are hogging medical resources from others with other needs (heart attacks, car accidents, etc.)

If we can allow hospitals to reject unvaxxed COVID patients (with rare exceptions) then I'm good to go back to normal and declare the goal has been accomplished.

The nurses and doctors I know still working ICU / COVID - moral is getting lower and anger is building among medical professionals against the unvaxxed.

As long as the unvaxxed are clogging up medical resources I might need for other reasons then the goal has not been accomplished and we still have work to do.
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AggieUSMC
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8:48p, 8/22/21
AG
Draconian restrictions and mandates are useless. Vaccines work. Encourage vaccination as much as possible. The unvaccinated are taking their own risk. Deal with the influx at hospitals as best we can. The virus will burn itself out to a seasonal cold-like virus eventually. It will suck but that's the best we can do.
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Tastybrisket10
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In reply to dlp3719 • 6:50a, 8/23/21
AG
If we start saying we have limited beds and a triage situation to decide who receives treatment due to their personal health choices, who do you turn away? The smoker, the obese person, someone with HIV, or the unvaccinated?
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tysker
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In reply to Gordo14 • 7:44a, 8/23/21
AG
Gordo14 said:
Seersucker Ag 2011 said:
I'm sincerely asking the question below. I know how divisive of an issue COVID is. As someone who has more or less lived his life as normally as is allowed, I'm trying to understand the other side.

For those who believe that some combination of masking/social distancing/vaccination requirements/etc. are necessary, what is the goal that you're hoping to get to where you say that COVID is defeated and/or not worth worrying about anymore? When can things return to normal?

Knowing that 100% vaccination won't happen unless forced at gunpoint, what are you looking for?

It's easy for both sides to yell at each other and launch ad hominem attacks. But, knowing that COVID is here to stay, what stats/metrics/goals must be met for you to say that the need to worry about COVID or to live differently than we did pre-COVID is necessary?


The goal is to manage the burden on the healthcare system by slowing the spread of the virus and/or improving the collective immunity of society. It will be over when society has enough collective immunity that hospitals don't have to change the way they operate to accommodate COVID patients. I think that criteria will be met after this winter. But until then I think it's a bit selfish/small-minded to ignore what is happening. COVID is more of a systemic issue than an individual one, which is why most people outside of the texags F16 bubble roll their eyes when you try to make the situation about you.

The burden of the healthcare system is not the patients but the system itself. Its been a complete misallocation of resources since the beginning. Converted convention centers, respirators, lockdowns with no mental health resources especially for children and now there are supposedly not enough beds (again) even though thousands of beds and medical space sits unused in Texas alone. Medical professionals continually playing catchup even though the most vulnerable and most susceptible have been well known since the start. The healthcare system is showing itself not to be about public health or general health if our citizens but about politics and the fanciful whims of leadership. There is no end because our healthcare system, rightly or wrongly, isn't designed for elimination or curing disease but to manage them.
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Teslag
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7:54a, 8/23/21
AG
This should have ended the day vaccines were available to anyone. I don't feel I should change anything about my life because people want to go unvaxxed.
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tomtomdrumdrum
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In reply to Tastybrisket10 • 8:03a, 8/23/21
AG
Tastybrisket10 said:
If we start saying we have limited beds and a triage situation to decide who receives treatment due to their personal health choices, who do you turn away? The smoker, the obese person, someone with HIV, or the unvaccinated?

If you want to argue with a doctor that these are four equivalent preexisting conditions, I don't think you're going to win any sympathy for the one that can be addressed with a free vaccine. It's a lot harder to lose weight or stop smoking than it is to go to Walgreens and ask for a shot. And I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make against treating people with HIV.
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The Big12Ag
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In reply to Another Doug • 8:03a, 8/23/21
Another Doug said:
Guy asked for personal opinions and I gave mine. Sorry you are so angry.

How does me personally thinking vaccines/social distancing is a good idea, mean I support "authoritarian restrictions". You 16chan types see bogeymen everywhere.
I bet no one has more posts on this board than GAC06, he's the most active poster on Covid. Despite that, I bet he has never actually started a thread on the board. He's what you would call a contrarian reactor, no matter what the general gist of a long reply might be he'll pick out a couple of minor points and react strongly to those and derail things. He's done it to the overly Covid worried and the overly Covid dismissive, mostly the former, but he's been contrarian to both.
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Tastybrisket10
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In reply to tomtomdrumdrum • 8:09a, 8/23/21
AG
Not making any argument, I'm just curious ethically and legally how a medical professional is going to decide who does and doesn't get treated.
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Teslag
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In reply to tomtomdrumdrum • 8:13a, 8/23/21
AG
tomtomdrumdrum said:
Tastybrisket10 said:
If we start saying we have limited beds and a triage situation to decide who receives treatment due to their personal health choices, who do you turn away? The smoker, the obese person, someone with HIV, or the unvaccinated?

If you want to argue with a doctor that these are four equivalent preexisting conditions, I don't think you're going to win any sympathy for the one that can be addressed with a free vaccine. It's a lot harder to lose weight or stop smoking than it is to go to Walgreens and ask for a shot. And I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make against treating people with HIV.

HIV, like smoking and overeating, is almost always contracted via irresponsibility and poor choices.
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tomtomdrumdrum
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In reply to Teslag • 8:17a, 8/23/21
AG
You can stop smoking, you can lose weight, you can get a vaccine, but you can't stop having HIV.

Unless... Does Ivermectin cure HIV too? Has anyone tried? Can't hurt!
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t - cam
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In reply to Teslag • 8:26a, 8/23/21
AG
Salute The Marines said:
tomtomdrumdrum said:
Tastybrisket10 said:
If we start saying we have limited beds and a triage situation to decide who receives treatment due to their personal health choices, who do you turn away? The smoker, the obese person, someone with HIV, or the unvaccinated?

If you want to argue with a doctor that these are four equivalent preexisting conditions, I don't think you're going to win any sympathy for the one that can be addressed with a free vaccine. It's a lot harder to lose weight or stop smoking than it is to go to Walgreens and ask for a shot. And I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make against treating people with HIV.

HIV, like smoking and overeating, is almost always contracted via irresponsibility and poor choices.


Sex?

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tysker
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In reply to Teslag • 8:31a, 8/23/21
AG
Salute The Marines said:
tomtomdrumdrum said:
Tastybrisket10 said:
If we start saying we have limited beds and a triage situation to decide who receives treatment due to their personal health choices, who do you turn away? The smoker, the obese person, someone with HIV, or the unvaccinated?

If you want to argue with a doctor that these are four equivalent preexisting conditions, I don't think you're going to win any sympathy for the one that can be addressed with a free vaccine. It's a lot harder to lose weight or stop smoking than it is to go to Walgreens and ask for a shot. And I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make against treating people with HIV.

HIV, like smoking and overeating, is almost always contracted via irresponsibility and poor choices.

At this point isnt catching covid is essentially a result of irresponsibility and poor choices?
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cone
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In reply to tysker • 8:38a, 8/23/21
AG
lol is this sarcasm
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Seersucker Ag 2011
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In reply to tysker • 9:08a, 8/23/21
AG
tysker said:
Salute The Marines said:
tomtomdrumdrum said:
Tastybrisket10 said:
If we start saying we have limited beds and a triage situation to decide who receives treatment due to their personal health choices, who do you turn away? The smoker, the obese person, someone with HIV, or the unvaccinated?

If you want to argue with a doctor that these are four equivalent preexisting conditions, I don't think you're going to win any sympathy for the one that can be addressed with a free vaccine. It's a lot harder to lose weight or stop smoking than it is to go to Walgreens and ask for a shot. And I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make against treating people with HIV.

HIV, like smoking and overeating, is almost always contracted via irresponsibility and poor choices.

At this point isnt catching covid is essentially a result of irresponsibility and poor choices?


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Teslag
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In reply to t - cam • 9:15a, 8/23/21
AG
t - cam said:
Salute The Marines said:
tomtomdrumdrum said:
Tastybrisket10 said:
If we start saying we have limited beds and a triage situation to decide who receives treatment due to their personal health choices, who do you turn away? The smoker, the obese person, someone with HIV, or the unvaccinated?

If you want to argue with a doctor that these are four equivalent preexisting conditions, I don't think you're going to win any sympathy for the one that can be addressed with a free vaccine. It's a lot harder to lose weight or stop smoking than it is to go to Walgreens and ask for a shot. And I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make against treating people with HIV.

HIV, like smoking and overeating, is almost always contracted via irresponsibility and poor choices.


Sex?

Unprotected sex with multiple partners and intravenous drug use. We know how STD's are transmitted and we know how to prevent it.
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Teslag
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In reply to tysker • 9:16a, 8/23/21
AG
tysker said:
Salute The Marines said:
tomtomdrumdrum said:
Tastybrisket10 said:
If we start saying we have limited beds and a triage situation to decide who receives treatment due to their personal health choices, who do you turn away? The smoker, the obese person, someone with HIV, or the unvaccinated?

If you want to argue with a doctor that these are four equivalent preexisting conditions, I don't think you're going to win any sympathy for the one that can be addressed with a free vaccine. It's a lot harder to lose weight or stop smoking than it is to go to Walgreens and ask for a shot. And I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make against treating people with HIV.

HIV, like smoking and overeating, is almost always contracted via irresponsibility and poor choices.

At this point isnt catching covid is essentially a result of irresponsibility and poor choices?

Not getting a free, effective vaccine is irresponsible and a poor choice.
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Seersucker Ag 2011
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In reply to Teslag • 9:26a, 8/23/21
AG
Salute The Marines said:
tysker said:
Salute The Marines said:
tomtomdrumdrum said:
Tastybrisket10 said:
If we start saying we have limited beds and a triage situation to decide who receives treatment due to their personal health choices, who do you turn away? The smoker, the obese person, someone with HIV, or the unvaccinated?

If you want to argue with a doctor that these are four equivalent preexisting conditions, I don't think you're going to win any sympathy for the one that can be addressed with a free vaccine. It's a lot harder to lose weight or stop smoking than it is to go to Walgreens and ask for a shot. And I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make against treating people with HIV.

HIV, like smoking and overeating, is almost always contracted via irresponsibility and poor choices.

At this point isnt catching covid is essentially a result of irresponsibility and poor choices?

Not getting a free, effective vaccine is irresponsible and a poor choice.


Vaccination status seems to have little effect on whether or not someone catches COVID at this point.
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Teslag
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In reply to Seersucker Ag 2011 • 9:30a, 8/23/21
AG
Seersucker Ag 2011 said:
Salute The Marines said:
tysker said:
Salute The Marines said:
tomtomdrumdrum said:
Tastybrisket10 said:
If we start saying we have limited beds and a triage situation to decide who receives treatment due to their personal health choices, who do you turn away? The smoker, the obese person, someone with HIV, or the unvaccinated?

If you want to argue with a doctor that these are four equivalent preexisting conditions, I don't think you're going to win any sympathy for the one that can be addressed with a free vaccine. It's a lot harder to lose weight or stop smoking than it is to go to Walgreens and ask for a shot. And I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make against treating people with HIV.

HIV, like smoking and overeating, is almost always contracted via irresponsibility and poor choices.

At this point isnt catching covid is essentially a result of irresponsibility and poor choices?

Not getting a free, effective vaccine is irresponsible and a poor choice.


Vaccination status seems to have little effect on whether or not someone catches COVID at this point.

Not exactly. Covid is the symptomatic disease and the vaccines have shown to prevent that. You hare thinking of infection with SARS-COV-2 which is still possible with vaccination, though the viral load duration is significantly lower with vaccination resulting in less spread.
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tysker
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In reply to cone • 9:36a, 8/23/21
AG
cone said:
lol is this sarcasm

Maybe a little but with all of the available ways to not get infected (masks, social distancing, isolation, etc) plus access to the vaccine if you get sick at this point, you kinda did it to yourself.
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