What would it take?

4,325 Views | 45 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by aggierogue
Nasreddin
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7:17a, 8/12/21
It would take me being able to make posts critical of the "accepted" party line and not find myself banned when attempting a post a few days later. Some moderator on this site has a real problem with any questions about covid. One day you're posting and the next "your account has been banned until _____." You haven't stated anything offensive or rude, you haven't posted porn - all you have done is question the narrative.

My response to that is continued use of Adblockers and not paying to use the site.
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KidDoc
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8:20a, 8/12/21
AG
I'm pro-vax anti mandate (mask or vax).

To change my pro-vax stance I would need to see consistent data showing lack of efficacy for severe illness or consistent correlation with serious side effects.

I'm very familiar with routine vaccination and fully understand that any vaccine can trigger rare and weird immune reactions. In most adults COVID vaccine benefit outweighs the risk at this point in time. For healthy children I do not think the benefit outweighs the risk at this time.

To change my anti mask mandate I would have to see actual real studies comparing schools with and without mask that actually show a difference in infection rates. This data does not exist at this time.

No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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rbs03Ag
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In reply to KidDoc • 9:03a, 8/12/21
AG
KidDoc said:
I'm pro-vax anti mandate (mask or vax).

To change my pro-vax stance I would need to see consistent data showing lack of efficacy for severe illness or consistent correlation with serious side effects.

I'm very familiar with routine vaccination and fully understand that any vaccine can trigger rare and weird immune reactions. In most adults COVID vaccine benefit outweighs the risk at this point in time. For healthy children I do not think the benefit outweighs the risk at this time.

To change my anti mask mandate I would have to see actual real studies comparing schools with and without mask that actually show a difference in infection rates. This data does not exist at this time.





Just to clarify...if the virus becomes (in large part) fully resistant to the vaccine, and the tides now turn to those who are fully vaccinated now have more severe disease and morbidity (in contrast to unvaccinated)...would your opinion be that vaccines (or mass vaccinations) were a mistake in retrospect?
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Zobel
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In reply to rbs03Ag • 9:43a, 8/12/21
AG
What do you think the mechanism would be to have people who are vaccinated have more severe disease than people who are unvaccinated? What makes you think that is a possible outcome?
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KidDoc
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In reply to rbs03Ag • 9:44a, 8/12/21
AG
rbs03Ag said:
KidDoc said:
I'm pro-vax anti mandate (mask or vax).

To change my pro-vax stance I would need to see consistent data showing lack of efficacy for severe illness or consistent correlation with serious side effects.

I'm very familiar with routine vaccination and fully understand that any vaccine can trigger rare and weird immune reactions. In most adults COVID vaccine benefit outweighs the risk at this point in time. For healthy children I do not think the benefit outweighs the risk at this time.

To change my anti mask mandate I would have to see actual real studies comparing schools with and without mask that actually show a difference in infection rates. This data does not exist at this time.





Just to clarify...if the virus becomes (in large part) fully resistant to the vaccine, and the tides now turn to those who are fully vaccinated now have more severe disease and morbidity (in contrast to unvaccinated)...would your opinion be that vaccines (or mass vaccinations) were a mistake in retrospect?
Not a mistake just a change in the dataset. Any evidence based medicine physician should be making decisions on evidence. Right now the evidence is very clear for adults especially with no past infection and risk factors. If that changes then of course my advice will change as well.

Two weeks ago the data showed that the vaccines were remarkably effective at preventing ALL infection, that changed with the new data as Delta spread in UK, Israel, and USA. It is not a change of opinion, it is a critical analysis of the available data.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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KidDoc
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In reply to Zobel • 9:45a, 8/12/21
AG
Zobel said:
What do you think the mechanism would be to have people who are vaccinated have more severe disease than people who are unvaccinated? What makes you think that is a possible outcome?
Antibody-dependent enhancement - Wikipedia

It has not been shown to happen with these vaccines. It did with some earlier attempts with RSV vaccine.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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dodger02
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In reply to Hullabaloo91 • 9:47a, 8/12/21
AG
Hullabaloo91 said:
I was also skeptical of the mRNA technology, the lack of liability for drug companies, and the speed of development. I listened to a Peter Attia podcast with Paul Offit, a doctor specializing in virology who developed the rotavirus vaccine, and he said that vaccines typically take 15-20 years and $1B to reach full approval.
I'm not picking on you. Your post is reasonable and I cannot quarrel with your position.

But these two sentences are what really bother me about this whole situation:

How many people who are "skeptical of the mRNA technology" have any clue at all about what mRNA is or how an mRNA-based vaccine is any more/less safe or effective than a live-attenuated (MMR), inactive (flu), or recombinant (pneumococcal) vaccine that most people consume without any hesitation? How do we expect people to "do their own research" and come to a reasonable conclusion when the vast majority of the general population hasn't taken a biology class since their sophomore year of high school? How many people who claim to "do their own research" have access to JAMA, NEJM, or any other legitimate peer reviewed medical journal where real research data and conclusions are published?

Too many people "do their own research" by listening to podcasts, watching YouTube videos and TikToks, or reading alternative news sites who have just as many stories about Bigfoot sightings and alien abductions as they do COVID "news". Anyone with a webcam and/or microphone can produce a podcast or post a YouTube video purporting to know someone who stopped menstruating after receiving the vaccine or who can now receive FM radio signals in their head.

Don't get me wrong, I listen to a ton of podcasts. I don't listen to them to consume unbiased news; they're entertainment. If something piques my interest, I may take a moment to research it on my own. But I don't take Joe Rogan or his guests as the gospel. I don't believe anyone should.

This is all just so maddening.
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Zobel
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In reply to KidDoc • 9:51a, 8/12/21
AG
That's a concern in general, but why would it be a concern with the vaccines we have now?

To have ADE you need non-neutralizing antibodies, no? So this would mean the change in the virus would have to be such a way that the antibodies bind but don't neutralize, or only partially. Since the antibodies we are creating via vaccine are using the same antigen as the actual virus (spike) any change in circulated virus that would cause ADE would impact both the vaccinated and previously infected.

This seems like one of those future hypotheticals which is true for vaccines in general, not for COVID vaccines in particular - and an unknowable based on some possible future mutation.
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ec2004
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In reply to rbs03Ag • 9:59a, 8/12/21
AG
rbs03Ag said:
What would it take to change your opinion on Covid & Covid protocols, regardless of which side you're on?

There's so much polarization, whether political, social media/social pressure, which just seems to get everyone arguing with each other.

I'm currently reading "The Righteous Mind" by Jonathan Haidt - written in 2012. This is a quote in the introduction (emphasis mine):


Quote:
"If you think that moral reasoning is something we do to figure out the truth, you'll be constantly frustrated by how foolish, biased, and illogical people become when they disagree with you. But if you think about moral reasoning as a skill we humans evolved to further our social agendas - to justify our actions and to defend the teams we belong to - then things will make a lot more sense. Keep your eye on the institutions, and don't take people's moral arguments at face value. They're mostly post hoc constructions made up on the fly, crafted to advance one or more strategy objectives."



The truth is that the vast majority of people on this board and F16 will craft their logic on a post hoc basis to advance their social objectives (and be totally convinced themselves that the logic is constructed in a way to seek the truth).

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rbs03Ag
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In reply to Zobel • 10:48a, 8/12/21
AG
Zobel said:
What do you think the mechanism would be to have people who are vaccinated have more severe disease than people who are unvaccinated? What makes you think that is a possible outcome?




I believe the term is viral immune escape, but I'm not 100% certain.

I think Geert Vanden Bossche provides some analysis on this. It appears to be objective and mathematical.

Essentially, mass vaccination campaigns will only increase the infectious pressure, causing mutations to form that become more dangerous to unvaccinated first, and then ultimately the vaccinated in the end.

He got debunked at the time his videos came out, but a lot of what he said seems accurate now that hindsight Is 2020. Idk. You could probably take a look and determine on your own, but I think it's interesting he and the inventor of mRNA technology are not on board with mass vaccinations.

Hope this helps in response. I'm not absolutely against vaccines or absolutely for them, necessarily. Just hope to get to the truth.
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Zobel
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In reply to rbs03Ag • 11:21a, 8/12/21
AG
The only thing that causes mutations to form is replication. The more replications you have, the more chance you have for mutations, the more chance for a meaningful replication.

This is just an argument against vaccines in general - which shows why it's not true. None of the other things we vaccinate for have demonstrated this behavior.
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aggierogue
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7:15p, 8/12/21
AG
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CSaR9AYp5li/
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