What would it take?

4,322 Views | 45 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by aggierogue
rbs03Ag
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12:21p, 8/11/21
AG
What would it take to change your opinion on Covid & Covid protocols, regardless of which side you're on?

There's so much polarization, whether political, social media/social pressure, which just seems to get everyone arguing with each other.

a) If you don't believe in the vaccine for you or your family, would it take 5 yrs of proven efficacy and safety to change your mind? 10 years? How long until you believe the many doctors that support the vaccine, along with the CDC, FDA, other scientists working around the clock, etc. on vaccine efficacy research?

b) If you do believe in the vaccine, how long would it take for you to change your opinion that it, theoretically in hindsight, was a bad idea? That also many doctors, vaccine experts like Dr. Robert Malone (inventor of mRNA technology), Geert Van Der Bossche, scientists that feel suppressed to speak out, etc. have been saying about the mistakes being made by mass vaccination?

I hope & believe everyone on here has good intentions. So, at what point do we lay down arms and just respect people to choose for themselves?

The argument is being made on both sides of the coin that it's going to make things worse in the future. And only one is likely to be correct, and science supports each side.

Hope we can find some peace amongst each other. That's a better life than worrying about who's right or wrong IMO. Worrying won't add a day to your life, but could take a bit of it away.
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fightingfarmer09
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In reply to rbs03Ag • 12:45p, 8/11/21
Nothing less than 50% of all confirmed cases resulting in death within 1 week of symptoms.

At this point our politicians are elitists, and the CDC and Heath Officials are politicians. And all politicians are liars looking to bleed you dry.

I've never been so comfortable with a political position as I am now.
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Sims
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1:03p, 8/11/21
AG
I made my mind up when states started offering millions of dollars and free cars to people who would take a vaccine.

I'm typically a late adopter and still consider being vaccinated but that type of behavior was a big red flag. If you don't have enough data to prove things out in a reasonable way and need to resort to stacks of cash and free cars, I'm out.
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Spotted Ag
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1:06p, 8/11/21
AG
It would take the number of years required for the government to stop profiting off of a disease and to stop telling me that I need to inject something into my body because they know what is best for me and everyone else.

Then, maybe, I'd consider it.
Covidians, Communists, CNN, FOX, and all other MSM are enemies of the state and should be treated as such.
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96ags
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In reply to Sims • 1:16p, 8/11/21
AG
Sims said:
I made my mind up when states started offering millions of dollars and free cars to people who would take a vaccine.

I'm typically a late adopter and still consider being vaccinated but that type of behavior was a big red flag. If you don't have enough data to prove things out in a reasonable way and need to resort to stacks of cash and free cars, I'm out.
I contend that there are many, many people like you and that the vaccination rates in the US would be at least 20% higher right now if the government had never taken a stance. The holier than thou attitude and over aggressive actions, particularly from one political group did tremendous damage in my opinion.
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Forum Troll
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1:20p, 8/11/21
AG
I'll change my mind on the vaccine when the unvaccinated stop clogging the hospitals wondering why their ivermectin or HCQ didn't work.
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GeorgiAg
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In reply to Forum Troll • 1:26p, 8/11/21
AG
Forum Troll said:
I'll change my mind on the vaccine when the unvaccinated stop clogging the hospitals wondering why their ivermectin or HCQ didn't work.
I've heard you need to wear a flea collar.
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coolerguy12
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In reply to Forum Troll • 1:26p, 8/11/21
AG
I'll change my mind on the vaccine when the vaccinated stop carrying and transmitting the virus wondering why their vaccine didn't work.
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coolerguy12
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1:28p, 8/11/21
AG
Serious post - I'll change my mind when my demographic falls into a category that I would consider at risk. Until that point I would rather just catch it (been trying for 18 months) and get natural antibodies. Baring a significant change in the virus or a significant change in my health it will be about 35-40 years till I reach that point.
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cisgenderedAggie
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1:35p, 8/11/21
(1) transparent access to actual data and methods used in all the "studies that say. . ."
(2) ability to regularly confirm that the studies actually said that
(3) consistent application of logical reasoning for policies, grounded in objective and transparently accessible metrics for improvement and worsening.
(4) deafening silence from the popular press when it comes to public health and medical science messaging.
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bay fan
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In reply to fightingfarmer09 • 1:52p, 8/11/21
S
Well, that set the bar very low as it relates to OP.

It would take substantial, proven ill effects from the vaccine to make me believe doing something (the shot) is better than doing nothing. The ill effects of the virus are known and proven so I would change my mind if the shot proved to have worse effects, something less and less likely with the huge numbers of people now vaccinated throughout the world.

Mask mandates only work if everyone uses them correctly. That is a lost cause. Honestly, I believe the anti mask people are very likely to be the anti vaccine people, the complainers who aren't willing to contribute to any attempted solution because *****ing is far easier then expending any effort towards a solution. I am vaccinated so I would be totally fine doing away with masks and just staying out of places filled with people who don't care enough to contribute to the solution. The only problem I have is for the people who must work amongst the I don't care's. That's my only lasting dilemma and why I still wear a mask wherever it's requested.
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bay fan
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In reply to Sims • 1:54p, 8/11/21
S
Sims said:
I made my mind up when states started offering millions of dollars and free cars to people who would take a vaccine.

I'm typically a late adopter and still consider being vaccinated but that type of behavior was a big red flag. If you don't have enough data to prove things out in a reasonable way and need to resort to stacks of cash and free cars, I'm out.
Um, I don't think it was a lack of data that led to that, rather a lack of willingness to accept it as safe despite the substantial data.
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96ags
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In reply to bay fan • 1:55p, 8/11/21
AG
bay fan said:
Well, that set the bar very low as it relates to OP.

It would take substantial, proven ill effects from the vaccine to make me believe doing something (the shot) is better than doing nothing. The ill effects of the virus are known and proven so I would change my mind if the shot proved to have worse effects, something less and less likely with the huge numbers of people now vaccinated throughout the world.

Mask mandates only work if everyone uses them correctly. That is a lost cause. Honestly, I believe the anti mask people are very likely to be the anti vaccine people.the complainers who aren't willing to contribute to any attempted solution because *****ing is far easier then expending any effort towards a solution. I am vaccinated so I would be totally fine doing away with masks and just staying out of places filled with people who don't care enough to contribute to the solution. The only problem I have is for the people who must work amongst the I don't care's. That's my only lasting dilemma and why I still wear a mask wherever it's requested.
That belief is incorrect. Several folks on this very thread have shown you that is not true.
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bay fan
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In reply to 96ags • 1:58p, 8/11/21
S
Which is why I said very likely and didn't go with the universal.
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Sims
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In reply to bay fan • 2:16p, 8/11/21
AG
bay fan said:
Sims said:
I made my mind up when states started offering millions of dollars and free cars to people who would take a vaccine.

I'm typically a late adopter and still consider being vaccinated but that type of behavior was a big red flag. If you don't have enough data to prove things out in a reasonable way and need to resort to stacks of cash and free cars, I'm out.
Um, I don't think it was a lack of data that led to that, rather a lack of willingness to accept it as safe despite the substantial data.
Again - I'm a late adopter.

The data that I want to see develops over time. How quickly we forget that the CDC paused the permissibility of Johnson & Johnson. Admittedly, the vaccine was developed at "warp speed." I was open and remain open (sans previously disclosed objection) to the vaccine. I'm interested to see where Novavax goes and I'm also interested to hear why J&J withdraw their application for approval of their vaccine in India - presumably indemnity issues and that doesn't give me the warm fuzzies.

Ultimately warp speed followed by a shaky landing and then free cars and cash rubs this late adopter the wrong way.
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CSAG96
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2:17p, 8/11/21
AG
Background: 47 year old and healthy, but with lifelong controlled asthma. Wife and I had Covid in January 2021. Lab confirmed, all the symptoms, recovered with no hospital trip. Vaccinated in late April. Two sons 22 and 24. Both have had Covid but not vaccinated.

I don't believe that masking has proven effective enough to mandate wearing them and alter many daily activities. I find it difficult to breath in one. What would change my mind? A reliable study that show definitive proof that there is enough benefit to walk around suffocating all day. I wear one when I have to, but largely avoid those situations when at all possible.

Regarding vaccine, I don't have a problem with the fact that my kids aren't vaccinated. If they, as adults chose to get it, I wouldn't have a problem with that either. I think adults should be able to make that risk assessment for themselves. I am protected, so why do I care what others do.

Freedom is a vital part of our country's foundation. To remove any freedoms requires a very high bar for me personally.
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HowdyTexasAggies
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In reply to bay fan • 2:20p, 8/11/21
AG
bay fan said:
Sims said:
I made my mind up when states started offering millions of dollars and free cars to people who would take a vaccine.

I'm typically a late adopter and still consider being vaccinated but that type of behavior was a big red flag. If you don't have enough data to prove things out in a reasonable way and need to resort to stacks of cash and free cars, I'm out.
Um, I don't think it was a lack of data that led to that, rather a lack of willingness to accept it as safe despite the substantial data.


Plenty of lack of trust in the government and data to go around between various demographics and political leanings. The vax % stats, by demographics, bear this out.
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Sims
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In reply to HowdyTexasAggies • 2:29p, 8/11/21
AG
HowdyTexasAggies said:
bay fan said:
Sims said:
I made my mind up when states started offering millions of dollars and free cars to people who would take a vaccine.

I'm typically a late adopter and still consider being vaccinated but that type of behavior was a big red flag. If you don't have enough data to prove things out in a reasonable way and need to resort to stacks of cash and free cars, I'm out.
Um, I don't think it was a lack of data that led to that, rather a lack of willingness to accept it as safe despite the substantial data.


Plenty of lack of trust in the government and data to go around between various demographics and political leanings. The vax % stats, by demographics, bear this out.
A new report by researchers at Carnegie Mellon University and the University of Pittsburgh has found that the most highly educated Americans are also the most vaccine hesitant.
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chjoak
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In reply to bay fan • 2:46p, 8/11/21
AG
bay fan said:
Sims said:
I made my mind up when states started offering millions of dollars and free cars to people who would take a vaccine.

I'm typically a late adopter and still consider being vaccinated but that type of behavior was a big red flag. If you don't have enough data to prove things out in a reasonable way and need to resort to stacks of cash and free cars, I'm out.
Um, I don't think it was a lack of data that led to that, rather a lack of willingness to accept it as safe despite the substantial data.
What substantial data?

We are talking about a vaccine that was created differently (mRNA manipulation vs traditional vaccine) than any other vaccine in the history of mankind, was rolled out faster than any other vaccine and is being forced (media, politicians, mandates, etc...) upon everyone despite not actually being FDA approved. There are barely short term studies and absolutely no long term studies. How in the world could there be substantial data that this vaccine is safe?
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Zobel
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In reply to cisgenderedAggie • 2:48p, 8/11/21
AG
I'm curious what your expectations are here for the first two items. Are you saying that in addition to the papers themselves, you expect access to the raw data behind the papers? As far as I know that's always been the property of the researcher, though many will choose to share when contacted (as they do for meta-analyses etc).

Hundreds of journals and other sources of publications chose to make all research and data on COVID open and freely available during the pandemic. The public has basically complete access to trials and data including preprints. It seems like you're suggesting somehow this isn't enough...?
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cisgenderedAggie
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In reply to Zobel • 3:00p, 8/11/21
Zobel said:
I'm curious what your expectations are here for the first two items. Are you saying that in addition to the papers themselves, you expect access to the raw data behind the papers? As far as I know that's always been the property of the researcher, though many will choose to share when contacted (as they do for meta-analyses etc).

Hundreds of journals and other sources of publications chose to make all research and data on COVID open and freely available during the pandemic. The public has basically complete access to trials and data including preprints. It seems like you're suggesting somehow this isn't enough...?


Independent researchers do not typically influence public policy in an authoritarian and unquestionable manner. Don't even begin to pretend that alphabet agencies have been transparent, consistent, and ethical in the sources and and methods on which their policy recommendations are made. I'm speaking about local authorities just as much as BS CDC weekly reports here.

As for the second item, I follow your posts and don't really believe that you are unfamiliar with following sources to confirm what is stated. It's frequently been a notorious problem in even academic journals, but the popular press takes it to a new level. The studies rarely say what they are claimed to say, and context is almost always lacking.
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Zobel
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In reply to chjoak • 3:01p, 8/11/21
AG
This has been beat to death but these talking points are a little bit misleading.

There absolutely were steps taken to reduce the time for the vaccine. Some of these were only possible because of previous research. In the case of the mRNA vaccines, there has been years of research on the lipids, on dosing, on how to actually make the spike protein have the right shape, on where to inject it and where it goes, how long it lasts in the body, and "tricks" with the mRNA itself. The groundwork was already there.

Part of the reason we could get clinical data so fast was because unfortunately there were so many infections - the disease is really prevalent. So very rapidly we were able to see whether they worked or not.

The prevalence of the disease also led to huge numbers of volunteers, so the phase 3 trials were also exceptionally large - over 30,000 and 40,000 people for Pfizer and Moderna, respectively. That gave a much clearer view of safety than normally (most phase 3 trials are around 3,000 people).

Saying it is not FDA approved seems to imply that the FDA is not saying the vaccines are safe and effective, but this is not the case. You can read their position here. To summarize, the FDA says they are safe and effective and that the known and potential benefits of these vaccines outweigh the known and potential risks for the American public. All of the safety and efficacy data is shared on that page, along with the advisory committee discussions and the FDA decisions where they outline why they approved the vaccines for use.

Every shred of evidence we have - and there is a TON - points to these vaccines being incredibly safe and effective, and an objectively better option than getting COVID19.
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Zobel
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In reply to cisgenderedAggie • 3:04p, 8/11/21
AG
I understand what you're saying. I thought you were saying that we didn't have enough access to the actual science. I agree with you about the justifiable lack of trust in the federal agencies and the ridiculous antics of local groups, and absolutely agree that media representations of scientific publications rarely have much to do with the actual findings.

The only defense against both of those things is people combating misinformation with good info, I think.
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The_Fox
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In reply to rbs03Ag • 3:11p, 8/11/21
I would take the vaccine when it is shown to have serious effects on those in my age/health range that have natural immunity from previous infection.

By serious effects, I mean like around a 4% IFR. 4%, not .4%. You know, around the same risk as the guys hitting the beaches in Normandy in 43.

Even then, I would still need to see the CDC Director inject the same vaccine that I would be taking into her ****oris on live tv.

Only after all of those conditions are met, would I seriously consider taking the vaccine.
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cisgenderedAggie
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In reply to Zobel • 3:15p, 8/11/21
You can't combat misinformation when all interpretations that are not preapproved to support unaccountable administrative actions are labeled as intentional disinformation and political hate speech. I've lost all trust in the intentions public health institutions and I'm a medical scientist that has worked on Covid trials.

I have nothing but empathy and understanding for laypersons that refuse to believe anything they are told simply because of who is doing the telling, and contempt for those that never question anything.
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Zobel
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In reply to cisgenderedAggie • 3:20p, 8/11/21
AG
What else can we do? "Clowns to the left of me jokers to the right"

Refusing to believe anything is one thing, but it seems to me that people instead simply choose what to believe based on existing bias. There's certainly a social media post, expert, or website for any belief. I don't see much drive for finding truth, mostly just red team / blue team playing or hapless confirmation loops.
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cisgenderedAggie
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In reply to Zobel • 3:26p, 8/11/21
Zobel said:
What else can we do? "Clowns to the left of me jokers to the right"

Refusing to believe anything is one thing, but it seems to me that people instead simply choose what to believe based on existing bias. There's certainly a social media post, expert, or website for any belief. I don't see much drive for finding truth, mostly just red team / blue team playing or hapless confirmation loops.


What else is one that has been lied to, and misled, and had the rug pulled out over and over and over supposed to do? This is not an exaggeration and it doesn't require Tucker Carlson to have told you that restrictive policies get imposed and public opinion gets directed with bad faith justifications.
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Kyle Field Shade Chaser
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In reply to rbs03Ag • 3:43p, 8/11/21
AG
Forgetting a key category like much of the media / CDC, etc...

c) Not opposed to vaccine, but have previously recovered from Covid

Those who need to see real data showing that the level of S-Protein provided by the vaccine is necessary, and that the numbers achieved via natural immunity aren't enough. It is documented that natural immunity may not produce as strong of numbers as the vaccine. However, what is the acceptable number? Is natural immunity enough? This is the data I'd like to see before getting the vaccine. I can go 60mph in a somewhat similar amount of time in a V6 or a V8 engine. Do I need 2500 S-Protein value when a natural immunity value of 700 is enough to protect me? I've recovered from Covid and been around several covid positive people including my wife and not been re-infected. So, do I really need the vaccine? Having been recovered with know anti-bodies, I'm more willing to wait on getting the vaccine 5 years from the time I first had Covid end of 2020.
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rbs03Ag
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In reply to Kyle Field Shade Chaser • 4:01p, 8/11/21
AG
Motracicletraficificker said:
Forgetting a key category like much of the media / CDC, etc...

c) Not opposed to vaccine, but have previously recovered from Covid

Those who need to see real data showing that the level of S-Protein provided by the vaccine is necessary, and that the numbers achieved via natural immunity aren't enough. It is documented that natural immunity may not produce as strong of numbers as the vaccine. However, what is the acceptable number? Is natural immunity enough? This is the data I'd like to see before getting the vaccine. I can go 60mph in a somewhat similar amount of time in a V6 or a V8 engine. Do I need 2500 S-Protein value when a natural immunity value of 700 is enough to protect me? I've recovered from Covid and been around several covid positive people including my wife and not been re-infected. So, do I really need the vaccine? Having been recovered with know anti-bodies, I'm more willing to wait on getting the vaccine 5 years from the time I first had Covid end of 2020.



Hope this doesn't come across as argumentative, because that's a good point.

But I would consider that anti-covid vaccine, as Dr. Malone and Bossche are both clear no one with previous infection should ever get vaccinated.
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Zobel
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In reply to Kyle Field Shade Chaser • 4:22p, 8/11/21
AG
Doesn't directly answer the whole burning convalescent vs vaccinated protection thing but - this paper looked at the relationship between antibody levels in the early studies and vaccine efficacy from the trials, using convalescent plasma as kind of a reference point.

The problem is I think once again we're running into real limits of medical understanding.

The question about how well one thing or another correlates to protection is not something we really know all that well, and there probably isn't a simple answer one way or another.

One thing to consider is that vaccine immunity may be related to how bad of a dose you're exposed to, so "protection" may be a moving target. Even how you choose to define protection is a moving target - some vaccines protect against disease, some only protect against larger infection vs localized infections, and so on. So antibodies may correlate with one, but not the other.

Another is that being protected from infection and how your body actually recovers once infected may not be the same thing. So antibodies may do the first part, but the recovery part or how severe the disease gets may be a completely separate thing (cellular responses). Or the way / how you initially get infected or vaccinated may change the protection mechanism (cellular response vs antibody) or protection on an organ level (like whether you can get locally infected in your nose, but not systemically, or something).

Antibodies are obviously important and vaccines focus on them but the immune system works in multiple layers and both vaccines and previous infections trigger more than antibody responses. So antibodies going away may make you susceptible to infection, but maybe the vaccine affords some protection against further disease. And this question is different for different viruses. We may even have some of this backwards in some cases - antibodies may really just indicate for how well other parts of the immune system have been activated.
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Hullabaloo91
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In reply to rbs03Ag • 10:14p, 8/11/21
AG
I'll raise my hand. I recently changed my position. I'm getting my first vaccine shot (Moderna) tomorrow.

I'm 51, in good health, but could stand to lose a pound or 20. After looking at both sides of the vax issue for the past 7 or 8 months, I've decided to get vaccinated. I was skeptical initially, because I wanted to see side effects and efficacy. I was also skeptical of the mRNA technology, the lack of liability for drug companies, and the speed of development. I listened to a Peter Attia podcast with Paul Offit, a doctor specializing in virology who developed the rotavirus vaccine, and he said that vaccines typically take 15-20 years and $1B to reach full approval. This gave me pause for a vaccine that was developed in about 10 months and skipped Phase 1 trials.

I realize that there are potential side effects for me (the anecdotal stories and VAERS numbers are a little scary), but I've made a risk assessment for me and my situation that the potential benefits outweigh the potential risks.

The turning point for me was seeing the UK data on hospitalizations and lower deaths during the latest wave and hearing from doctors that I trust who have what I consider a reasoned position saying that the vaccine reduces severity of the illness. With school starting back up, I think there's a higher likelihood my kids could bring it home.

I'm anti mandate, and I don't think there has ever been compelling evidence on masking. I also deal with a 77 year old mom who is convinced that the vaccine has microchips and magnets, so I've got that going for me.

My kids are 11 (twins), and I'm absolutely against them getting the vaccine until longer term studies or results are available. I view the COVID heath risks to healthy kids as negligible, and we don't yet know the long term effects of these vaccines.

The most frustrating aspect of all of this has been how difficult it is to just get the facts without any spin. Don't scare monger me about a virus with a 99+% survival rate and don't scare-monger me that the vaccine is a ploy to depopulate the planet. I just want the facts so I can make a sound decision for my family and me.

Just my 2 on this. YMMV, please respect my decision, and all that.
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HowdyTexasAggies
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In reply to Sims • 5:50a, 8/12/21
AG
Yes, and there are other groupings with low vax % as well.
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01agtx
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6:40a, 8/12/21
AG
When I see stories like this, my answer is no. It doesn't matter how many people have gotten the shot safely.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9826739/Minnesota-woman-legs-AMPUTATED-contracting-COVID-19-days-receiving-vaccine.html

https://www.gofundme.com/f/22h9pf-fundraiser-for-jummai-naches-medical-expenses
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Spudman
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In reply to Hullabaloo91 • 6:46a, 8/12/21
AG
In all the posts I have read over the last 18+ months related to this, that is the most level-headed, non-political post I have seen. Bravo to you for sharing your thoughts. Your line about your mother cracked me up though - I have a MIL very similar to that.
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96ags
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In reply to Hullabaloo91 • 6:47a, 8/12/21
AG
Hullabaloo91 said:
I'll raise my hand. I recently changed my position. I'm getting my first vaccine shot (Moderna) tomorrow.

I'm 51, in good health, but could stand to lose a pound or 20. After looking at both sides of the vax issue for the past 7 or 8 months, I've decided to get vaccinated. I was skeptical initially, because I wanted to see side effects and efficacy. I was also skeptical of the mRNA technology, the lack of liability for drug companies, and the speed of development. I listened to a Peter Attia podcast with Paul Offit, a doctor specializing in virology who developed the rotavirus vaccine, and he said that vaccines typically take 15-20 years and $1B to reach full approval. This gave me pause for a vaccine that was developed in about 10 months and skipped Phase 1 trials.

I realize that there are potential side effects for me (the anecdotal stories and VAERS numbers are a little scary), but I've made a risk assessment for me and my situation that the potential benefits outweigh the potential risks.

The turning point for me was seeing the UK data on hospitalizations and lower deaths during the latest wave and hearing from doctors that I trust who have what I consider a reasoned position saying that the vaccine reduces severity of the illness. With school starting back up, I think there's a higher likelihood my kids could bring it home.

I'm anti mandate, and I don't think there has ever been compelling evidence on masking. I also deal with a 77 year old mom who is convinced that the vaccine has microchips and magnets, so I've got that going for me.

My kids are 11 (twins), and I'm absolutely against them getting the vaccine until longer term studies or results are available. I view the COVID heath risks to healthy kids as negligible, and we don't yet know the long term effects of these vaccines.

The most frustrating aspect of all of this has been how difficult it is to just get the facts without any spin. Don't scare monger me about a virus with a 99+% survival rate and don't scare-monger me that the vaccine is a ploy to depopulate the planet. I just want the facts so I can make a sound decision for my family and me.

Just my 2 on this. YMMV, please respect my decision, and all that.
This describes probably 70% of my close friend group to a tee. The hyperbole surrounding it all has done more damage than just about anything.
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