Ranger222 said:

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When major hospital systems in major states such as Texas and Florida are stopping all non-emergency surgeries because they don't have enough beds due to COVID, it ain't over and isn't close to over.

It's really that simple.

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If it's that simple then healthcare needs to adjust just like every other business. I read on another thread that the Houston hospital system has something like 1500 beds for 7 million people. Whatever red tape that needs to be cut to build more rooms should have happened along with looking at changing pandemic protocols. That tax payer money which went to the vaccine could have contributed in other ways. If it's a staffing issue then this was inevitable.

ttha_aggie_09 said:

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DaveAg02 said:

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Not making an argument, just sharing a reality. The cumulative impact of millions of so-called personal decisions is a public impact. So, your decision is a public one. As is mine and everyone else's.

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And that is the beauty of living where we do... we're all able to make decisions on our own, without a gun to our head. I'm sure Australia or much of Europe would welcome you with open arms.

Are you going to hold this much vitriol towards people when they're vaccinated and still infect others around them? It is already happening and I am curious how the goal posts are going to be moved, yet again.

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Yes, I will probably still have zero vitriol, as this is not an emotional nor political topic for me, but a logical one. I think if you look at my post, you'll see that I don't really care if infections are rising and falling. Vaccinated people don't tend to need hospitalization. That's the primary concern, and has been since literally the very beginning of the pandemic. Slow the spread, flatten the curve to keep the Healthcare system from breaking. It didn't happen in NYC, and people who could have lived didn't. That's what I would like to see, clearer hospitals. Same goal posts as March, 2020.

larry culpepper said:

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Salute The Marines said:

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Cyp0111 said:

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BC we have quite a few freedom puppies that would cut their nose if in spite of their face

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People should never be ridiculed for advocating liberty. It's a turn off and only pushes them away. If your goal is getting them to vaccinate this is a poor way to do it.

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I wont attack people for advocating liberty. But I'm pretty tired of hearing all the whining about how taking any type of covid safety precaution is an all out assault on muh freedoms. When in reality these people are too selfish to take any action that benefits someone else or is for the greater good (like getting vaccinated, staying home if exposed, etc)

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If this were May of 2020 your point would probably be valid. But people are frustrated after a year of being misled, ridiculed, miscommunicated to, and sometimes just flat out lied to.

larry culpepper said:

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Salute The Marines said:

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larry culpepper said:

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Salute The Marines said:

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Cyp0111 said:

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BC we have quite a few freedom puppies that would cut their nose if in spite of their face

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People should never be ridiculed for advocating liberty. It's a turn off and only pushes them away. If your goal is getting them to vaccinate this is a poor way to do it.

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I wont attack people for advocating liberty. But I'm pretty tired of hearing all the whining about how taking any type of covid safety precaution is an all out assault on muh freedoms. When in reality these people are too selfish to take any action that benefits someone else or is for the greater good (like getting vaccinated, staying home if exposed, etc)

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If this were May of 2020 your point would probably be valid. But people are frustrated after a year of being misled, ridiculed, miscommunicated to, and sometimes just flat out lied to.

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The same people were voicing the same complaints back in May 2020 too. Asking Americans to make small sacrifices for the greater good has always been an uphill battle.

The government/CDC/etc are fair game to criticize for their messaging over the past 18 months but IMO that's no excuse for certain people to be a-holes and completely disregard safety measures out of selfishness.

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The FDA continues to be at fault for not fully authorizing the vaccine...they have "jabbed" over 160M people....if there is something wrong before approval they will have lost full credibility....if something comes up wrong after full approval same result. They have hitched their wagons to these vaccines so just say they are fully safe and move along....

KlinkerAg11 said:

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The hospitals have to stop filling up.

Personally, I think that stops after this summer wave.

IMO I think we will be there by this fall, but that's my opinion.

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totally agree. this is the real ongoing crisis. the health care system from a human capital perspective is completely worn out.

and the vaccination rate as it currently stands absolutely impacts the high acuity volume

but vaccinations are not going to stop the spread. half of my immediate neighbor households all got the itis via breakthrough infections. i'm fully vaccinated and i would 100% assume to catch the virus right now if i went out and took no precautions. i'd likely be fine long-term, but i'd catch it.

and masks as mitigation measures are trash compared to vaccines at best and just don't work at all at worst.

social distancing works, but it's unsustainable long-term from a social and economic persepective.

so the only way is through, using vaccines to blunt the damage as much as possible.

but i still don't believe that some quantifiable measure will be used to signal an end to hostility. no one will want to own those numbers.

Salute The Marines said:

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But you still haven't given us metrics.

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who would want to put that sort of skin into the game at this point?

What safety measures are you referring to?

Masks - surely you don't belief this is an effective safety measure?
Social Distancing?
Lockdowns - buying more time and delaying?
Personal health - advocating for people to make better decisions about their health?
Vaccines - advocating that everyone must receive a vaccine?

Agree. Need more blame there vs citizens in my opinion. Not enough coverage of that *minor* detail (no full approval).

I hear "its coming" and sure as heck may but why should we wait 1 more month. What is the risk. School is here. Full approval could be huge...

Salute The Marines said:

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But you still haven't given us metrics. Even if everyone is vaccinated covid will still spread. So if we are still reporting every infection as a "case" what's the point of vaccination % as an end goal?

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I did. Read my posts. 80-90% vaccination rate for all that are eligible (will be ages 5+ in September). Ideally 90%+ but I'm doubting we will be able to reach that high with too many digging their feet on this thing and resisting.

I agree that we have made a grave mistake in reporting every positive test, especially for vaccinated. The idea is to get this to the point where an infection = cold/mild flu like symptoms and no hospitalization. We got into an unnecessary frenzy over vaccinated individuals testing positive and having some symptoms. The end goal was to keep you out of the hospital and dying. Its proving very effective in doing just that. Right now we are facing another pandemic of the unvaccinated that are filling hospitals and dying. If we cover a super majority of the population, keep them out of the hospital and out of the morgue, then we have accomplished the task and we can safely end mitigation measures, get back to life before the pandemic (aside from a potential new yearly vaccination to go along with the flu vaccine) and move on.

It's been that way since the beginning and hasn't changed. There will be people that say it has but it honestly hasn't.

I do want to clarify that i think full FDA approval will in fact get some people off the fence and have them "get the jab".

I also want to be more specific that I do not believe any mandates should arise from full FDA approval....i will say that is my biggest concern.

Upon approval, our leaders should tout the safety of the vaccine and let people naturally grow to take the vaccine. Full approval + mandates will help nothing.

Forum Troll said:

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larry culpepper said:

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I agree. I am anxiously awaiting FDA approval because I think that will make a meaningful difference.

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The vaccine refusal goalposts will just be moved. Maybe a few get it due to FDA approval, but it won't be noticeable imo.

Hopefully you are right and I am wrong.

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I have been very pessimistic but one reason for optimism is I truly do not believe that half of the country is anti-vax. They are just the most vocal. There is a significant portion of the country that just never got the vaccine, either out of apathy or ignorance on how to get it. Now those numbers are increasing due to the delta spike. This is anecdotal but my brother as well as some friends I know have recently gotten the first dose. They were never against the vaccine, i guess they just put it off for whatever reason and now they are getting it.

larry culpepper said:

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Salute The Marines said:

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larry culpepper said:

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Salute The Marines said:

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Cyp0111 said:

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BC we have quite a few freedom puppies that would cut their nose if in spite of their face

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People should never be ridiculed for advocating liberty. It's a turn off and only pushes them away. If your goal is getting them to vaccinate this is a poor way to do it.

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I wont attack people for advocating liberty. But I'm pretty tired of hearing all the whining about how taking any type of covid safety precaution is an all out assault on muh freedoms. When in reality these people are too selfish to take any action that benefits someone else or is for the greater good (like getting vaccinated, staying home if exposed, etc)

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If this were May of 2020 your point would probably be valid. But people are frustrated after a year of being misled, ridiculed, miscommunicated to, and sometimes just flat out lied to.

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The same people were voicing the same complaints back in May 2020 too. Asking Americans to make small sacrifices for the greater good has always been an uphill battle.

The government/CDC/etc are fair game to criticize for their messaging over the past 18 months but IMO that's no excuse for certain people to be a-holes and completely disregard safety measures out of selfishness.

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You are blanket assuming these are "small" sacrifices. You are also ridiculing people for "selfishness" which discounts beliefs that may be fervently held and true to others. In short, it undermines what you want them to do and pushes them away.

it would be nice if we had some agreed upon facts about what seems to work.

you might be loathe to put mRNA into your body, but with regard to severe illness due to COVID, it's overwhelmingly established that the mRNA vaccines work

there is absolutely zero evidence that the minimum acceptable masking as defined by mandates work

masks do one thing really really well - they send the signal that the pandemic isn't over and that you should think twice before getting close to me. that's almost their entire utility in practical terms. you might hate that and reject it entirely, but that's the actual usefulness to the public health planners.

also, you put people into masks by mandate because it's cheap. and so when you grant them permission to take off the masks, you can ask for something in return (vaccine mandates, passports, etc.).

i'm assuming that FDA approval will be used to most directly change how medical bills related to covid illness are covered (depending on vaccination status)

it's pretty clear that the unvaccinated are requiring as a population far more intensive and expensive care. a FDA approval will make it easy for insurance companies to force the unvaccinated to pay fuller freight on the care.

Quote:

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If we cover a super majority of the population, keep them out of the hospital and out of the morgue, then we have accomplished the task and we can safely end mitigation measures, get back to life before the pandemic (aside from a potential new yearly vaccination to go along with the flu vaccine) and move on.

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hope your right

but this feels hopelessly naive to me

we've got a taste for the new biosecurity state and a lot of people like it

cone said:

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Quote:

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Once some time has passed that will allow children and any adult hold-outs to be vaccinated (2-3 months) to receive both doses of the vaccine, then many of the mitigation requirements (masks, social distancing) will be lifted. Being conservative, by January 2022.

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you're high if you think mitigation measures are going to be lifted during cold and flu

especially with the vaccines being increasingly broken through

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I'm not sure what you are looking for. This is why these topics become pointless to post on and this forum has become useless (way back in May - June 2020 if we are counting STAFF).

There are a certain group of posters (some on this very thread) that want to say they were lied to etc., but yet they are the ones continuing to move the goal posts for this. Weird how that works, isn't it?

i'm looking for a more realistic take than we are going to lift restrictions during cold and flu season in North America

i mean, let's be real here. whatever is in place in November will be in place in April.

larry culpepper said:

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There is a significant portion of the country that just never got the vaccine, either out of apathy or ignorance on how to get it.

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This is EXACTLY right. All the media outlets and Twitter warriors claiming that people were misled by their uncle's Facebook posts (why does everyone always blame uncles?) or were scared because of "Tuskegee" are just trying to score political points.

There is a large percentage of the population that just suffers from inertia. They just never got around to getting vaccinated early on, never got sick, and then it appeared that COVID seemed to be going away.

And here we are.

ttha_aggie_09 said:

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DaveAg02 said:

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ttha_aggie_09 said:

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DaveAg02 said:

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Not making an argument, just sharing a reality. The cumulative impact of millions of so-called personal decisions is a public impact. So, your decision is a public one. As is mine and everyone else's.

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And that is the beauty of living where we do... we're all able to make decisions on our own, without a gun to our head. I'm sure Australia or much of Europe would welcome you with open arms.

Are you going to hold this much vitriol towards people when they're vaccinated and still infect others around them? It is already happening and I am curious how the goal posts are going to be moved, yet again.

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Yes, I will probably still have zero vitriol, as this is not an emotional nor political topic for me, but a logical one. I think if you look at my post, you'll see that I don't really care if infections are rising and falling. Vaccinated people don't tend to need hospitalization. That's the primary concern, and has been since literally the very beginning of the pandemic. Slow the spread, flatten the curve to keep the Healthcare system from breaking. It didn't happen in NYC, and people who could have lived didn't. That's what I would like to see, clearer hospitals. Same goal posts as March, 2020.

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If it is logical, are you willing to acknowledge natural immunity and the equal (possibly even superior) benefit it provides to the vaccine?

I am not trying to make any of this political or emotional... you're the one playing the "think of the sick children card" and quite frankly, it is grotesque. It is absolutely what is wrong with the messaging about this virus and why so many people are reinforced of their beliefs that this vaccine contains something nefarious.

I am not one of those people, for the record.

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The sick children aren't a card, they are a reality. If your argument against taking a vaccine is that people who are susceptible have the choice to get it, it's important to note that a lot of people who are susceptible don't have the option.

planoaggie123 said:

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DaveAg02 said:

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My 10 yo's best friend has leukemia. She's 10, she cannot get vaccinated, and she might have to be hospitalized at any time if she gets even a small cold due to her immune system. Before the cancer, I coached her for 13 soccer seasons over 7 years, since the two of them were 3. She's a great athlete, wants to play goal for the Ags. She may not have a hospital bed available if she needs one.

My wife is a pediatrician. Her employer has had to let doctors go because they were hit so hard financially without elective surgeries. My wife's officemate was let go effective the day she was notified, zero severance pay.

If everyone who could be vaccinated would, we wouldn't have this issue of overcrowded hospitals. Then, covid would still be there, but the excess death due to lack of treatment capacity and the nearing-critical impact on Healthcare workers would be behind us. That's when it ends.

There is no personal choice. There's only public choice. Each individual has the freedom to choose whether they want to incrementally impact the survival rate of cancer kids or help the Healthcare industry start to recover.

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I hate seeing any young kid with any form of cancer or serious illness and I feel for her and her family.

I just have two small problems with your comments:

1) I think vaccinations work and they are amazing for the high risk group and even moderate risk groups but no mandates should ever be made for perfectly healthy kids / young people...or anyone for that matter. Let's have the FDA get off its ass and provide full FDA approval today / tomorrow and we will see a spike in vaccinations. Let's blame the FDA a bit a this point. 160M+ "jabs"...what is the risk now of an "early" FDA approval?

Also are you requiring those with natural immunity to get the vaccine?


2) The personal vs public choice is soooo wrong. That is the slipperiest of slopes and I hope you can see how government being given the option to mandate health choices is the wrong path.

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1. Totally agree that we need FDA approval.

2. I don't think we should have a government mandate. I do think vaccination decisions are individual public choices. You are making a decision that impacts the public, not your person. People are only evaluating their own situation, and making a choice that has broader consequences.