Are there legitimate concerns about the vaccine?

13,523 Views | 104 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by Old McDonald
Fenrir
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Zobel said:


Quote:

Yeah, that it's not a politically scientifically tenable position.

fify
Your position is that there is no valid reason for any human to refuse the vaccine?

I mean even the CDC lays out at least a couple of circumstances (pregnancy and previous known allergic reactions with vaccines and/or specific components of these vaccines). The former is because of a current lack of data (and per the CDC "Getting Vaccinated is a Personal Choice"), however this will change in time quite probably showing no overall increased risk. The latter is a bit of a "well, no *****.." but considering absolutely no information beyond "doctor" and "unvaccinated" is known about the anecdote provided, it's more than presumptuous to say their refusal of the vaccine is scientifically untenable. It being politically untenable is a pretty clear fact at this point.
tomtomdrumdrum
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AG
KidDoc said:

Good post.

I would add that a significant percentage of vaccine refusers are minorities as well.

CDC COVID Data Tracker

Per that page 9% of black people are vaccinated. I don't think 91% of black people are Trump fans but I could be wrong I guess.


Pretty sure you're reading that wrong. The 9% refers to "Percent among Persons who are Fully Vaccinated." So 9% of the people that have been vaccinated are black, which makes sense considering 12.4% of our population is black. The gap between those two numbers is significant, but definitely doesn't imply what you read from the chart.

Odd deflection to take, though. Let's not kid ourselves about who the majority audience for this conversation is on TexAgs.
KidDoc
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AG
Thanks for pointing that out you are correct! Blacks sadly still lag behind a bit but they seem to be recently catching up while whites are not.

I did some more digging during a gap in my schedule, here are the % by race graphs.

CDC COVID Data Tracker

Black 25% vs white 30% vs Native American 40%

Not as bad a gap as I believed which is great to see.

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Zobel
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AG
It was a joke.
mazag08
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AG
John Francis Donaghy said:

Well, I guess if your baseline is that you've written off your doctors, all other doctors, the medical research community, all of academia, the most respected medical journals in the world, pharmacists, the pharmacology research community, and all the other people and organizations involved in dealing with a previously unexperienced global health emergency as all being corrupt liars and cheats then you're in a tough spot about how to move forward.

Good luck managing your health with YouTube videos, I guess.


I wrote off the majority of those people a long time ago. Especially academia and anyone who thinks global warming is a real thing.

And I trust big pharma even less than academia.
Picadillo
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https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/07/cdc-director-now-says-new-data-shows-breakthrough-cases-vaccinated-people-can-spread-much-virus-unvaccinated/?ff_source=Twitter&ff_medium=PostTopSharingButtons&ff_campaign=websitesharingbuttons
PJYoung
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AG
Quote:

"In rare occasions, some vaccinated people infected with a delta variant after vaccination may be contagious and spread the virus to others,"
oragator
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I have zero issues with anyone asking legitimate questions about the efficacy, side effects, potential long term concerns etc. everyone should ask those questions.
But it's like everything else in society today, people seek out information that confirms their existing biases and then shuts down critical thought.
Just follow actual data, not cooked up data to prove a point, but real data, and make an informed decision.
CMP-00-
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AG
https://utswmed.org/medblog/covid-vaccine-holdouts/?fbclid=IwAR2R0P3y9FicNJ8ACn5NWhClHFXb9kjHUdQrIiVWH33SJ7UHsi6hQlH9ScY
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KidDoc
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AG
Good information but her last statement just doesn't seem to be true based on the data coming from the CDC this week.

Quote:

The problem with putting off or avoiding vaccination for COVID-19 is that it gives the virus time to spread and mutate, which means both vaccinated and unvaccinated people could be susceptible to future variants. It also means the pandemic and measures such as mask mandates

No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
itsyourboypookie
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Zobel said:

Yes, they can do that and are already.

The mRNA is instructions to make the spike protein. Delta (and Beta) has a K417N mutation on the spike compared to the original. The instructions to make the spike by the original vaccines does not have this mutation.

Once they figure the new spike, they can make a new mRNA "code" to make a spike with the K417N mutation. Both Pfizer and Moderna are already developing Delta-type spike mRNA vaccines, and clinical trials are supposed to start next month.

The other thing is it may be better to just do a third round of the original vaccine. The original first shot / second shot looks something like 40 / 95 efficacy vs original, maybe that gives 20 / 70 vs delta. If you add a third shot perhaps you get 99 or sterilizing immunity vs original and 90 vs delta.

Also all of that wanes with time regardless - Pfizer has said their data from the US suggest it goes from 95 to around 85 efficacy over six months.


What about natural immunity? How's it look so far?
Zobel
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AG
That's a really complicated question, because of the effect of variants. Here's some "safe" statements I think we can say.

It seems like antibody levels are a good indicator of vaccine efficacy, which means they're probably also predictive of protection against reinfection.

Antibody levels in vaccinated individuals are generally higher than convalescent and more predictable (see Fig 1A). However, convalescent people have antibodies to both the N protein and the S protein (see Fig 1B). You can see that some convalescent people don't have a strong antibody response to N and/or S, which probably depends on disease severity.

Antibodies generated by vaccines look like they bind more broadly to potential single-protein mutations on the spike than convalescent ones, and are more focused on the "business end" (receptor-binding domain) of the spike than convalescent antibodies. This means that we might expect vaccinated individuals to have better immunity versus some variants than recovered patients.

This is countered by the fact that while the infection-developed antibodies may be less focused on the receptor-binding domain, they are broader since the immune system develops antibodies to the N protein as well. If you read the second paper above, you'll see that not everyone they checked for antibodies who was unvaccinated but previously recovered actually had N-type antibodies. Weird, but small sample size.

Some of the differences in response could be
- the vaccine mRNA spike may be presented to the body in a slightly different shape
- the way its presented to the body immune system may be different
- natural infection only generally presents in the respiratory system vs in the muscle for vaccine

So long story short.

- If you could somehow freeze mutations, it's likely that the vaccines are better than infection versus that specific virus
- Depending on the mutation, vaccine-induced antibodies might give better protection against a variant because of broader binding to the spike receptor-binding domain
- Depending on the mutation, infection-induced antibodies might give better protection against a variant because there's more parts of the virus to respond to

Long story shorter - we don't really know for sure yet, because forecasting the future is hard and the immune system is complicated. We don't even know for sure whether reinfection from the other human corona viruses is because immunity wanes or because the viruses mutate, or both.
CMP-00-
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AG
The CDC data indicates that SOME vaccinated individuals who develop symptomatic breakthrough COVID-19 may shed virus at a rate equal to some unvaccinated individuals with COVID-19. It's also true that the virus is ever-developing immune-evasion and vaccination may not be AS effective with this variant as with SARS-CoV-2 "prime." None of this means that vaccination doesn't limit spread. Furthermore, no one ever claimed that the vaccines were 100% effective. "Seat belts don't always work, therefore nobody should have to wear one." ? Please clarify, are you suggesting that the vaccines currently available in the U.S. don't work? Perhaps I am misunderstanding your position.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
KidDoc
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It works to prevent death and hospital stays. Per this interesting case report last week it does not seem to prevent mild infections and spread of delta.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.htm?s_cid=mm7031e2_w

This is supported by the spread of delta even in countries with widespread vaccine (England). Deaths have remained very low however which is great news.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
chap
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We are NOT supposed to use car crash analogies with COVID.
12thMan9
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The answer to OP question is yes.

A great read:
https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/reasons-not-getting-covid-vaccine/
Ronnie '88
Wakesurfer817
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Also a great read:

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/christian-elliots-18-reasons-i-wont-be-getting-a-covid-vaccine-viral-antivaccine-misinformation/
CMP-00-
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AG
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s_Health_Defense

Is this the type of organization with which you want to align yourself? This group is not an authoritative scientific or medical organization. They have no credibility in the scientific or medical communities. This is propaganda. I cannot overemphasize the importance of vetting sources when seeking the truth.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Drip99
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CMP-00- said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s_Health_Defense

Is this the type of organization with which you want to align yourself? This group is not an authoritative scientific or medical organization. They have no credibility in the scientific or medical communities. This is propaganda. I cannot overemphasize the importance of vetting sources when seeking the truth.


Personal trainer writing opinion articles about vaccines. I'm guessing this is circulating on the beacon of truth and knowledge known as Facebook.

Christian Elliot
Christian Elliot is a certified personal trainer, life coach and a certified nutrition coach
rafer69
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Thoughts from a doc?

I'm sure the usual suspects will say this guy is also a quack.

https://westernstandardonline.com/2021/07/bc-doc-says-hes-found-blood-clots-in-62-of-post-jab-patients/
Tamu_mgm
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AG
Short answer is YES, there absolutely are short term and long term concerns with the COVID vaccines and upcoming booster shots as well.
texan12
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Haven't skipped a beat at work since the beginning. Over 500 people whose average age is about 45 and in a outdoor/indoor setting. Worse it got was about 10 people who popped positive about a year ago. Of course many more were sent home for precautionary reasons. Masks haven't been mandated for the last 6 months too.
Zobel
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AG
He may or may not be a quack but his explanation of the vaccine and where it goes in the body is factually incorrect compared with actual published research. If he is really finding this, he should publish his results. That would be not only the responsible thing but also the best for him personally and for his career. The fact that he has not done that means he's probably either wrong or lying.
fig96
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Fenrir said:

Zobel said:


Quote:

Yeah, that it's not a politically scientifically tenable position.

fify
Your position is that there is no valid reason for any human to refuse the vaccine?

I mean even the CDC lays out at least a couple of circumstances (pregnancy
and previous known allergic reactions with vaccines and/or specific components of these vaccines). The former is because of a current lack of data (and per the CDC "Getting Vaccinated is a Personal Choice"), however this will change in time quite probably showing no overall increased risk. The latter is a bit of a "well, no *****.." but considering absolutely no information beyond "doctor" and "unvaccinated" is known about the anecdote provided, it's more than presumptuous to say their refusal of the vaccine is scientifically untenable. It being politically untenable is a pretty clear fact at this point.
This isn't accurate. They've said there is a need for more data and studies are currently ongoing, but they acknowledge that there's potentially higher risk with pregnant women and to consult your physician.

My wife got vaccinated when she was about 6 months pregnant after we had a few different discussions with her OB. She had zero issues and our baby girl is now here and healthy.
fig96
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AG
Posted this on another thread a while back, but for those with concerns about the EUA/unofficial approval/testing of the COVID vaccines here's some info I got directly from someone who's been in pharmaceutical testing in various capacities for 25+ years:

Full FDA approval requires long term studies in wide populations, including blind trials which the current timeline has not yet provided for. In the case of Covid vaccines full non-clinical work was done (i.e. is this safe for humans?) before undergoing Phase 1 and 2 clinical trials for safety and efficacy. Longer term animal studies and human trials are required for full approval.

Many drugs, particularly vaccines, have received Emergency Use Authorization before going on to full approval, and EUA is still very difficult to get and highly vetted by the FDA. Companies receiving EUA have to continue with their development and testing in parallel to release. It started back in the 80s with AIDS when people were dying while waiting on the full approval of drugs that already had large amounts of clinical evidence for helping their condition.

As with any drug there will be some risk, but in the case of a vaccine like this the benefits outweigh the risks by pretty much every measure.
planoaggie123
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AG
Not sure why, if they are comfortable with a EUA to "jab" 100s of millions of people, they can't just skip all the red-tape and give full FDA approval. It is not like they are going to say "oops" and not authorize fully. At this point, full approval would likely increase vaccination rates which is what they want....
fig96
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AG
Not sure if you've missed recent news but this is in the works, believe they're aiming for a Labor Day full approval.
planoaggie123
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fig96 said:

Not sure if you've missed recent news but this is in the works, believe they're aiming for a Labor Day full approval.

I am aware they aim for approval in the next month or so but not sure why it has not been done already. Could have already had increased numbers in vaccinated adults....saving lives....
TheMasterplan
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KidDoc said:

Good post.

I would add that a significant percentage of vaccine refusers are minorities as well.

CDC COVID Data Tracker

Per that page 9% of black people are vaccinated. I don't think 91% of black people are Trump fans but I could be wrong I guess.


This - you can't insult donald trump supporters and leave out minorities as well who overwhelmingly vote Democrat.

You can't complain about the "always distrust ____" culture and then only mention one side. That's how you lose trust. It would help if Gordo and others would have some humility and stop being so condescending. It is 100% fact that there is no real world evidence of masking and they have never owned up to it.

Forum Troll
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AG
Its Picadillo, you guys must've not been around on F16 in the Obama days.
tomtomdrumdrum
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AG
TheMasterplan said:

KidDoc said:

Good post.

I would add that a significant percentage of vaccine refusers are minorities as well.

CDC COVID Data Tracker

Per that page 9% of black people are vaccinated. I don't think 91% of black people are Trump fans but I could be wrong I guess.


This - you can't insult donald trump supporters and leave out minorities as well who overwhelmingly vote Democrat.

You can't complain about the "always distrust ____" culture and then only mention one side. That's how you lose trust. It would help if Gordo and others would have some humility and stop being so condescending. It is 100% fact that there is no real world evidence of masking and they have never owned up to it.



Guess you didn't keep reading the thread beyond when you were replied to, but KidDoc's post you quoted is not at all an accurate understanding of the linked chart.

And you can complain about who people are directing their frustrations at all you want, but let's not kid ourselves about who the audience is on these forums. If you feel singled out as a Trump supporter, you aren't - you're probably in the majority on TexAgs.
TheMasterplan
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There's heaps of other data out there that says otherwise.

tomtomdrumdrum
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AG
There are heaps of data about the demographics of TexAgs? Or there are heaps of data about how KidDoc thought the chart said only 9% of black people are vaccinated, when it actually said 9% of vaccinated people are black?

I'm confused about what point you think you're making, because it doesn't seem relevant as a response to what I said.
PJYoung
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planoaggie123 said:

Not sure why, if they are comfortable with a EUA to "jab" 100s of millions of people, they can't just skip all the red-tape and give full FDA approval. It is not like they are going to say "oops" and not authorize fully. At this point, full approval would likely increase vaccination rates which is what they want....

Sounds like it will happen in early September

Quote:

FDA Accelerates Full Approval of Pfizer-BioNTech Vaccine as Delta Variant Surges
https://time.com/6087556/fda-pfizer-vaccine-approval/

Quote:

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has begun accelerating the process to fully approve the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine, facing pressure to add resources from those who believe the lack of full approval is hampering efforts to get more Americans vaccinated.

"We recognize that for some, the FDA approval of COVID-19 vaccines may bring additional confidence and encourage them to get vaccinated," Abigail Capobianco, a spokeswoman at the FDA, said in a statement on Aug. 4. "Acknowledging the urgency related to the current state of the pandemic, we have taken an all-hands-on-deck approach, including identifying additional resources such as personnel and technological resources from across the agency and opportunities to reprioritize other activities, in order to complete our review to help combat this pandemic surge."
Old McDonald
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i have a nagging suspicion that "FDA approval" is a convenient yet-to-happen formality that the vaccine-hesitant have latched onto to justify their choice not to get it, and not really their legitimate concern. i have a hard time believing that a demographic which largely distrusts medical/government agencies and institutions is actually waiting for the go-ahead from a government agency to get the vaccine.

i really hope i'm wrong
 
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