txaggie79 said:

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2girlsdad said:

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What do y'all suggest?

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Get vaccinated and get on with your life.

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100% this.

If the virus was no big deal for you why would you be worried about a vaccine?

I don't get flu shots ever either, but I got the Covid Vaccine so I could return to normalcy quicker.

The phI vaccine trials looked at how the dose was related to the antibody response, because that's a really good proxy for acquiring longer term immunity. There have been a number of vaccine candidates that have failed in the early stage because the response wasn't adequate. So the question becomes, is an asymptomatic or mild case enough of a challenge to the immune system to provide a long term response. And the answer is: nobody knows.

Also, a number of variants out there are different enough to evade the response from an infection from the original strain. It seems like the vaccines are protective against the new strains because the immune response they generated over 2 shots was pretty massive and makes up for the fact they the virus is slightly different.

So that's why you should get vaccinated regardless of whether you've had it or not.

SoupNazi2001 said:

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jopatura said:

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If you are a normal, healthy-ish adult without prior vaccine reactions, the shot isn't going to harm you for more then a few days. If you've had vaccine reactions in the past, or you are on special medication for XYZ disease, I would discuss with your doctor.

We don't know what the shot might do to our bodies in the future, but I guarantee even without it we are all going to die of something one day.

For those super worried about the long-term effects of the vaccine, we also don't know the long-term effects of COVID, especially in those who got super sick. There are some that have some really weird changes to their body now and it wasn't necessarily only people who were hospitalized.

I never had COVID, so I got the Pfizer shots in hopes that I give myself a better chance of not becoming seriously ill or dying this year from catching Covid.

As far as getting the vaccine after having COVID, there are many other vaccines where you still take the vaccine after getting sick. Flu, shingles, etc. It's not a hard science and you do have to consider everything else. I would have likely still gotten vaccinated if I had contracted a mild case of COVID. If my body had been compromised, who knows.

As far as my kids I'm waiting on the trials and more time monitoring the vaccines in adults. In particular interest to me are: Are kids who get the vaccine also seeing occurrences of MIS-C without COVID? Is transmission actually slowing/stopping in adults? Are vaccinated adults still getting COVID? Unless the vaccine shows strong proof that it will inoculate a child enough to prevent spread in the classroom, I don't know that I'm interested right now. If they are still going to get sick (but not die, just like now) and still have a chance of MIS-C and have a chance of contracting MIS-C from the vaccine, I don't know if that's worth it.

Now I don't agree with all the theater around masks and 90 day re-quarantines and vaccine passports. That has for sure been used as a way to control the country and there isn't enough unbiased data to for a regular person to judge for themselves what does and doesn't work. I didn't consider any of that when trying to decide whether to get the shot since I know all those are just political tools.

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Again this post or none really address people who had mild cases of Covid already. There is no scientific evidence as why those people should get vaccinated especially if they are already young and healthy. This is why health officials and the government have lost credibility. When you treat these people the same as others and say just get vaccinated to be safe you lose credibility. If they want to get vaccinated that's great. But if they are forced to in order to otherwise live their life normally that is very wrong.

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Reinfection rates are also fubared at the moment. At one point, you had to have a lab confirmed molecular change in your positive tests. That means that someone had to have their original sample stored or analyzed in such a way that it could be compared to the second sample. For most people, this requirement is impossible. The routine tests just do not capture this data well enough.

Anecdotally across the county, there have been enough reports of people testing positive for COVID, not testing again (or testing negative) between days 14-90 after quarantine is lifted, getting exposed and testing positive again with symptoms. Those cases to my knowledge are not counted unless they can meet the previous standards. Sometimes it's mild, for some it has meant hospitalization.

So we don't really know reinfection rates right now comfortably enough to guarantee it won't happen.

There's just something about Gen-Xers with bachelor's degrees that really produces a strong denier response. The millennials and boomers, and all of the Ph.D.'s I know, are getting the shots. I'm not sure what the phenomenon means, and maybe it's anecdotal, but I'm seeing it A LOT.

Maybe a lot of overlap in the educated 40 - 55 YO group with Trump voters. Who knows. Strange times.

This whole discussion is so frustrating to me. Once we have the ability to get at will vaccines (now in Texas) - as in walk up and get vaccinated - this discussion should be irrelevant. We should (we won't) shift back to people taking personal responsibility for their health. Get vaccinated if you deem it advantageous. Don't if you wish to assume the risk of covid. You are not risking other's health, you are risking your own.

Done.

Could it possibly be that the virus is of almost 0 risk to people in that age group so there is not really a rational reason for them to seek out a vaccine? Seems like a pretty logical response, especially now that the more at risk people have had the opportunity to be vaccinated now.

Geez, some people just love to live in fear.

Don't live in fear, get the vaccine.

I'm Gen-X with a PhD who got vaccinated, so clearly, 94chem's observations are correct (that's a joke, BTW).

But, I think there is a big push back from people who feel like this vaccine is being "forced" on them - either through gov't intervention, their employer, or society at large.

The problem with that is, if you look at it logically and unemotionally, there really is no good reason to not get vaccinated (assuming you've received other vaccines with no issue). Regardless of what the gov't, your employer, or your friends and family tell you, what we know about vaccines and how vaccines work should outweigh all of that.

Vaccines are safe. This vaccine is safe. If you've taken other vaccines, you should take this one.

But this has become extremely politicized...on both sides. I happen to be one who believes that our reaction to this virus was way overblown, but I also believe that vaccination is the solution. I think my viewpoint is an unusual one.

As far as the argument about infection vs vaccine, there have been multiple studies that have shown that in many cases the vaccine generates a stronger immune response, even among people who have had Covid.

This is just one report on that:

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/immune-response-vaccination-after-covid-19

To summarize, people who had Covid had the same levels of antibodies after the first shot as people who had not had Covid but received two shots.

So, there is benefit to getting vaccinated even if you've had Covid. There is simply no way to know what exact antibody level one has to have to prevent reinfection, and that number probably varies wildly among the population.

The reasonable response to protect yourself and others around you is to just get vaccinated.

But, given that pretty much anyone who wants a vaccine can get one (at least in TX), I feel like ALL restrictions should be lifted. Period. End of discussion.

I'm really started to get annoyed that I'm expected to wear a mask to protect people who refuse to get vaccinated. Unfortunately, if I want to stay employed, I have to continue to wear a mask in certain situations.

TXTransplant said:

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I'm Gen-X with a PhD who got vaccinated, so clearly, 94chem's observations are correct (that's a joke, BTW).

But, I think there is a big push back from people who feel like this vaccine is being "forced" on them - either through gov't intervention, their employer, or society at large.

The problem with that is, if you look at it logically and unemotionally, there really is no good reason to not get vaccinated (assuming you've received other vaccines with no issue). Regardless of what the gov't, your employer, or your friends and family tell you, what we know about vaccines and how vaccines work should outweigh all of that.

Vaccines are safe. This vaccine is safe. If you've taken other vaccines, you should take this one.

But this has become extremely politicized...on both sides. I happen to be one who believes that our reaction to this virus was way overblown, but I also believe that vaccination is the solution. I think my viewpoint is an unusual one.

As far as the argument about infection vs vaccine, there have been multiple studies that have shown that in many cases the vaccine generates a stronger immune response, even among people who have had Covid.

This is just one report on that:

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/immune-response-vaccination-after-covid-19

To summarize, people who had Covid had the same levels of antibodies after the first shot as people who had not had Covid but received two shots.

So, there is benefit to getting vaccinated even if you've had Covid. There is simply no way to know what exact antibody level one has to have to prevent reinfection, and that number probably varies wildly among the population.

The reasonable response to protect yourself and others around you is to just get vaccinated.

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I have 2 good reasons:

(1) I have already been vaccinated by the actual virus, and (2) the virus only caused me mild allergy symptoms.

I don't think your view on this is unusual at all. I agree with your points outside I could care less what other people do. Get the vaccine if you want and don't get it if you don't want.

I felt bullied into getting vaccinated myself.

TXTransplant said:

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But this has become extremely politicized...on both sides. I happen to be one who believes that our reaction to this virus was way overblown, but I also believe that vaccination is the solution. I think my viewpoint is an unusual one.

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Disagree. I think this is what most believe. We just hear from the media and paranoid or the "it's just the flu, it won't hurt me" crowds. Almost everyone I know thinks reactions were way overboard, but vaccine is way out and are or have received it.

I think where we differ is in that there is no way I could feel bullied into getting vaccinated.

I don't really care what others do, as long as I don't have to take precautions to protect them. We aren't there, yet.

But, I absolutely 100% believe that getting vaccinated is the solution to all this crazy.

While I certainly see the logic in this, 1) you don't know that your antibodies from infection are sufficient to prevent reinfection and 2) you don't know that you will have another mild case.

Now, arguably, you don't know these things for certain even if you are vaccinated, but there is a heck of a lot of data showing that they are true for the majority of vaccinated people.

I look at the vaccine as insurance, even if you've had Covid.

TXTransplant said:

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While I certainly see the logic in this, 1) you don't know that your antibodies from infection are sufficient to prevent reinfection and 2) you don't know that you will have another mild case.

Now, arguably, you don't know these things for certain even if you are vaccinated, but there is a heck of a lot of data showing that they are true for the majority of vaccinated people.

I look at the vaccine as insurance, even if you've had Covid.

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Luckily for me I am the one to gets to decide this for myself.

DallasGrad18 said:

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Could it possibly be that the virus is of almost 0 risk to people in that age group so there is not really a rational reason for them to seek out a vaccine? Seems like a pretty logical response, especially now that the more at risk people have had the opportunity to be vaccinated now.

Geez, some people just love to live in fear.

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I don't know. I think of Pelayo, who was in that group, and is no longer with us. I think of my 50 year old friend (through international adoption connections), father of 6, who just passed. I think about David Edwards, age 48, who's gone. And my pastor, age 48, who nearly died but made it out of the hospital. And my daughter's 40-something HS counselor, who they thought was gone, got sent to hospice, and has somehow survived (maybe with permanent brain damage). I'm guessing they'd all be getting vaccinated now if they had the choice. I live in Texas. I haven't been living in fear. I also have an umbrella insurance policy. Is that living in fear too?

Couple of folks on threads here recently seem to have an aptitude to belittle or shout down different viewpoints when an otherwise civil conversation is going on. Can't help but notice a common forum at the top of their posting history.

Friendly reminder/request to play by the golden rule. TIA

The_Fox said:

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TXTransplant said:

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While I certainly see the logic in this, 1) you don't know that your antibodies from infection are sufficient to prevent reinfection and 2) you don't know that you will have another mild case.

Now, arguably, you don't know these things for certain even if you are vaccinated, but there is a heck of a lot of data showing that they are true for the majority of vaccinated people.

I look at the vaccine as insurance, even if you've had Covid.

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Luckily for me I am the one to gets to decide this for myself.

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As it should be. This is most definitely an individual decision. I was just responding to people who have said that there is no scientific reason for people who have had Covid to get vaccinated. There is.

Ranger222 said:

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Until you catch one of the variants going around that is showing more severe disease outcomes.

It would be wise to boost your immune system.

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This isn't really happening in reinfections. Or at all. Mortality rates appear to be the same.

That said, I still recommend the vaccine regardless just to play it as safely as possible with community spread. But don't see this has been happening. On the other hand, is it really necessary to keep pushing vaccines on the young and healthy here in the US, especially who have already had the disease, while 93% of the global adult populations hasn't had it yet?

Maybes it isn't a 1 for 1 type of thing with supply. But I'd rather get the vaccine to those who need it more than a young person who already had covid and is highly unlikely to get it again, or if they do even more unlikely to end up with a severe disease. Better served on a higher risk in another country. Even if I n an ideal world we eventually get it to everyone

94chem said:

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DallasGrad18 said:

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Could it possibly be that the virus is of almost 0 risk to people in that age group so there is not really a rational reason for them to seek out a vaccine? Seems like a pretty logical response, especially now that the more at risk people have had the opportunity to be vaccinated now.

Geez, some people just love to live in fear.

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I don't know. I think of Pelayo, who was in that group, and is no longer with us. I think of my 50 year old friend (through international adoption connections), father of 6, who just passed. I think about David Edwards, age 48, who's gone. And my pastor, age 48, who nearly died but made it out of the hospital. And my daughter's 40-something HS counselor, who they thought was gone, got sent to hospice, and has somehow survived (maybe with permanent brain damage). I'm guessing they'd all be getting vaccinated now if they had the choice. I live in Texas. I haven't been living in fear. I also have an umbrella insurance policy. Is that living in fear too?

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The reaction of some seems to be that taking or not literally any action is "living in fear". It's weird.

94chem said:

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DallasGrad18 said:

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Could it possibly be that the virus is of almost 0 risk to people in that age group so there is not really a rational reason for them to seek out a vaccine? Seems like a pretty logical response, especially now that the more at risk people have had the opportunity to be vaccinated now.

Geez, some people just love to live in fear.

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I don't know. I think of Pelayo, who was in that group, and is no longer with us. I think of my 50 year old friend (through international adoption connections), father of 6, who just passed. I think about David Edwards, age 48, who's gone. And my pastor, age 48, who nearly died but made it out of the hospital. And my daughter's 40-something HS counselor, who they thought was gone, got sent to hospice, and has somehow survived (maybe with permanent brain damage). I'm guessing they'd all be getting vaccinated now if they had the choice. I live in Texas. I haven't been living in fear. I also have an umbrella insurance policy. Is that living in fear too?

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Anecdotal evidence isn't data. Seems like there are a lot of people in a lot of walks of life that need to learn that lesson. Many of the problems we have in society today are people acting irrationally based on anecdotal evidence.

Individuals should evaluate what they feel is best for them. You were free to get the vaccine, others are free not to. It's honestly nobody's business but the individual. Vaccines are widely available now, so protect yourself as you see fit.

The whole response to this pandemic has been irrational, so now you have two factions. One lights votive candles to St. Fauci and the other refuses the vaccine. Maybe if we focused on a strategy of individual freedom in this process, we wouldn't be so split. But here we are...

I don't think you understand what living in fear means. So much of our response to covid has been irrational and fear based.

DallasGrad18 said:

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I don't think you understand what living in fear means. So much of our response to covid has been irrational and fear based.

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And I think a lot of people who are on your "side" of things think the whole situation is weirdly black and white.

Just because I'm personally taking precautions and think we should still have certain restrictions in place doesn't mean I agree with many aspects of our response from the top down.

Nobody on "my side" thinks you shouldn't be prudent and care for your own health. Do what's best for you. However, your personal risks do not get to make decisions for society at large. You don't get to keep kids home from school for a year. You don't get to put restaurants and small service businesses out of business. You don't get to mandate what risks I am not willing to take. You don't get to close outdoor spaces to the public. You don't get to tell me to wear a mask inside my own home or avoid seeing my own family. You don't get to tell me I can't go to church. You don't get to tell me I can't go to a funeral for a loved one. Although far from exhaustive, these are all things "your side" has pressured on society over the last year.

"Your side" never thinks of the greater societal damage caused by "2 weeks to slow the spread". It certainly does not outweigh the risks of catching this virus. You can disagree with that, but your opinion is not any more valid than mine. If people had stuck to the mission of keeping the hospitals from being overwhelmed, fine. We can all agree on that which is why it never happened. But this has become religion for "your side". Living in fear is allowing society to cave to the virus. Shutting down the actual important aspects of life because of a challenging situation. Promoting nonsensical restrictions to show how virtuous you are in the fight against the virus.

Leave people's health up to them. The whole reason we are here is the overzealous, politicized nature of this virus response. It's amazing why you can't see why people would be averse to getting a vaccine forced down their throat for a virus they don't fear after a year of governmental agencies pedaling in fear porn and misinformation.

Quote:

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I think of my 50 year old friend (through international adoption connections), father of 6, who just passed.

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Just curious...are the initials of this friend "D.W."?

The refusal to get vaccinated is just the flip side of the same coin, the flip side being the people who won't let go of their security mask.

I went to lunch with three other people today. All of us are fully vaccinated (and we all know that about each other). We walked there - about 3/4 of a mile each way.

Two of us took our masks off as soon as we stepped outside and kept them off, even when we entered the restaurant.

The other two kept their masks on the entire time, except when they were putting food into their mouths. As soon as they were done eating, they put the masks back on. The only other person we came within 6 feet of the entire time was our waitress, and even she wasn't wearing a mask.

I am all for personal choice - whether it comes to vaccination or mask wearing. But, geez, it's getting hard to have a serious conversation with someone who refuses to speak to you without a mask on.

If you're still so worried that you feel the need to wear a mask why even go to lunch?

The risk of a vaccinated person spreading the virus to someone else is probably around the same order magnitude as a person being harmed by the vaccine - meaning both are so small that they shouldn't even be blips on our daily radar. But both sides are still stuck where they are on these issues.

TXTransplant said:

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The refusal to get vaccinated is just the flip side of the same coin, the flip side being the people who won't let go of their security mask.

I went to lunch with three other people today. All of us are fully vaccinated (and we all know that about each other). We walked there - about 3/4 of a mile each way.

Two of us took our masks off as soon as we stepped outside and kept them off, even when we entered the restaurant.

The other two kept their masks on the entire time, except when they were putting food into their mouths. As soon as they were done eating, they put the masks back on. The only other person we came within 6 feet of the entire time was our waitress, and even she wasn't wearing a mask.

I am all for personal choice - whether it comes to vaccination or mask wearing. But, geez, it's getting hard to have a serious conversation with someone who refuses to speak to you without a mask on.

If you're still so worried that you feel the need to wear a mask why even go to lunch?

The risk of a vaccinated person spreading the virus to someone else is probably around the same order magnitude as a person being harmed by the vaccine - meaning both are so small that they shouldn't even be blips on our daily radar. But both sides are still stuck where they are on these issues.

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I have zero fear of the vaccine. But I do not see the need to expend any effort in getting it.

I have zero fear of the flu, and also do not take the time to get it either.

I was vaccinated for almost everything imaginable prior to my last deployment to Iraq. Vaccinations are fine.

I am also not concerned about actually being infected by COVId.

I just want everybody ok both sides to STFU and go back to normal. Or don't, but stop including me in your paranoia.

DallasGrad18 said:

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Nobody on "my side" thinks you shouldn't be prudent and care for your own health. Do what's best for you. However, your personal risks do not get to make decisions for society at large. You don't get to keep kids home from school for a year. You don't get to put restaurants and small service businesses out of business. You don't get to mandate what risks I am not willing to take. You don't get to close outdoor spaces to the public. You don't get to tell me to wear a mask inside my own home or avoid seeing my own family. You don't get to tell me I can't go to church. You don't get to tell me I can't go to a funeral for a loved one. Although far from exhaustive, these are all things "your side" has pressured on society over the last year.

"Your side" never thinks of the greater societal damage caused by "2 weeks to slow the spread". It certainly does not outweigh the risks of catching this virus. You can disagree with that, but your opinion is not any more valid than mine. If people had stuck to the mission of keeping the hospitals from being overwhelmed, fine. We can all agree on that which is why it never happened. But this has become religion for "your side". Living in fear is allowing society to cave to the virus. Shutting down the actual important aspects of life because of a challenging situation. Promoting nonsensical restrictions to show how virtuous you are in the fight against the virus.

Leave people's health up to them. The whole reason we are here is the overzealous, politicized nature of this virus response. It's amazing why you can't see why people would be averse to getting a vaccine forced down their throat for a virus they don't fear after a year of governmental agencies pedaling in fear porn and misinformation.

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You've done an exceptional job illustrating exactly what I just said about "your side" seeing things as black and white and why there's little conversation to be had on this subject.

To highlight, since you missed it the first time:

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Just because I'm personally taking precautions and think we should still have certain restrictions in place doesn't mean I agree with many aspects of our response from the top down.

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I've said nothing about lockdowns, keeping kids out of school, outdoor spaces, that people should be forced to be vaccinated, or basically anything else that you've ascribed to me in your post, and explicitly made the point that I don't agree with many things in my first two sentence response that you apparently didn't bother to read in its entirety.

Good rant though.

This is just further evidence of the societal damages of the last year. People are living in fear. Politicians stand around wearing masks after being fully vaccinated. Fauci goes out and says keep on keeping on even if you get the vaccine.

I'm not "anti-vax". People who are at risk should get it. I already had covid and don't find the risk of reinfection serious enough to bother with a vaccine that has given people worse side effects with than the actual virus. I also haven't seen a scintilla of data indicating there is a substantial risk of reinfection without some underlying condition. Others may come to a different conclusion and my opinion may change over time. However, the idea being propagated that there's a moral imperative to get a vaccine is amoral and absurd. And the hostage situation with the shut downs and reopening is worse.

I hate to see the sentiment expressed by the OPs company. Leveraging people into making health decisions is terrible. If employees need to take precautions for their health, allow them. Don't violate the privacy of others. It's not murder to walk around without a mask. The only way that all of this stops is if we stand up to it and say enough.

Let's say for fun none of the lockdown stuff happens. Masks are recommended from the get-go but never required politically. Businesses still have the choice whether to require them or not. Gatherings are never prohibited, but most people cancel them anyways out of precaution/liability/etc. Basically we are where we are today without any of the theater.

Do you still decide against the vaccine?

You obviously didn't take much time to consider what I actually said. If anything, my point is that it's not black and white. The nuance is how our response impact society on a greater level than just life/death outcomes of the virus.

My response was not an individual attack. I know nothing about what you believe personally. However, you invoked the "side" argument, so I was offering a retort to the "other side." Sorry for the personal pronouns. Didn't think it would be that hard to see the point.

If you want to see it as a rant, fine. But a lot of people agree with what I just said, so don't think some snide comment discounts the content of the message.