A Natural Experiment in the Effectiveness of Mask Mandates (Univ. of Kansas)

10,211 Views | 106 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by NASAg03
texagbeliever
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bay fan said:

tysker said:

Federale01 said:

I have yet to see someone present a logical reason for not wearing a mask.
How about, "I've already been infected" or "I've existing 10-day isolation with no symptoms" or " I received a negative test today"?

Is there a reason why a person that has already been infected should be required to wear after receiving a negative test or after symptoms have ceased?
Because in a public place, there is no way to know if you are being honest. Do you want to carry a doctors note?

My gosh, I don't enjoy wearing a mask but I do it without complaint because it's the most effective way for me to participate in the solution rather then just focusing on myself.

It's such an over the top reaction to say we'll have to wear them forever. It's just an excuse to avoid owning a refusal to help others.
"the solution". Interesting phrasing there.

Also when you get off your high horse there, masked knight, answer this. Does wearing masks reduce the number of people who ultimately get infected or does it delay the time period of that infection? Another-words does the area under the curve decrease or stay the same (if not get larger). If you don't see where this is going... hospitalization rates why is that no longer used as the measuring stick for shutdowns and risk levels?
texagbeliever
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Also to further the point, would it be better for the vulnerable population to be exposed to covid during the summer when their bodies immune systems are strongest or during the winter when their immune systems are weakest?
Ol_Ag_02
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AG
Federale01 said:

What is the "other side" other than not wanting to and freedom? I have yet to see someone present a logical reason for not wearing a mask. I have heard, "there is no evidence they are effective," "Freedom/America," "God will protect me," "I don't want to," and "I have a health condition." Other than the last one, what excuse not to wear them has any validity for folks to be so understanding about?


Because they're fear porn, extremely useless, and exist solely to do the following two things:

1: Be a visual reminder that there's a virus out there that is so deadly, the average age of death is greater than the average of an American lifespan, and

2: Provide the vehicle for nosy, controlling, sheep to inflate their self importance.

This virus is a joke. Stand like a man, or die cowering in the corner.
Proposition Joe
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Ol_Ag_02 said:

Federale01 said:

What is the "other side" other than not wanting to and freedom? I have yet to see someone present a logical reason for not wearing a mask. I have heard, "there is no evidence they are effective," "Freedom/America," "God will protect me," "I don't want to," and "I have a health condition." Other than the last one, what excuse not to wear them has any validity for folks to be so understanding about?


Because they're fear porn

Fear porn for whom? Does wearing a mask scare you? Does other people wearing a mask scare you?
NASAg03
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texagbeliever said:

Also to further the point, would it be better for the vulnerable population to be exposed to covid during the summer when their bodies immune systems are strongest or during the winter when their immune systems are weakest?
Here's a great idea for spring, summer and fall:
  • Close down gyms
  • Keep people inside away from the sun
  • Increase stress with fear-mongering
  • Decrease emotional health with isolation
  • Discourage close relationships
  • Provide cheap, unhealthy food delivered to your door
  • Masks and distancing to delay covid
  • Suppress the natural immune system

Now let's do winter:
  • Low vitamin D
  • Poor physical health
  • Poor nutritional health
  • Cold weather = trapped indoors with others
  • No help to care for you due to fear / isolation
  • Flu + covid last longer due to cold weather

Yeah, great global health plan for fighting a virus and maintaining hospital space!!!!

Going to be very interesting to see how Sweden plays out this winter.
Mike Shaw - Class of '03
Keegan99
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AG
"Have already had COVID and have antibodies" is a valid reason.
tomtomdrumdrum
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texagbeliever said:

bay fan said:

tysker said:

Federale01 said:

I have yet to see someone present a logical reason for not wearing a mask.
How about, "I've already been infected" or "I've existing 10-day isolation with no symptoms" or " I received a negative test today"?

Is there a reason why a person that has already been infected should be required to wear after receiving a negative test or after symptoms have ceased?
Because in a public place, there is no way to know if you are being honest. Do you want to carry a doctors note?

My gosh, I don't enjoy wearing a mask but I do it without complaint because it's the most effective way for me to participate in the solution rather then just focusing on myself.

It's such an over the top reaction to say we'll have to wear them forever. It's just an excuse to avoid owning a refusal to help others.
"the solution". Interesting phrasing there.

Also when you get off your high horse there, masked knight, answer this. Does wearing masks reduce the number of people who ultimately get infected or does it delay the time period of that infection? Another-words does the area under the curve decrease or stay the same (if not get larger). If you don't see where this is going... hospitalization rates why is that no longer used as the measuring stick for shutdowns and risk levels?


I think that less people getting sick and dying until we have better mitigation tactics and finally a vaccine is a pretty good plan. Not sure how more people dying faster is a better plan.
cavscout96
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You need to relocate
cavscout96
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tomtomdrumdrum said:

texagbeliever said:

bay fan said:

tysker said:

Federale01 said:

I have yet to see someone present a logical reason for not wearing a mask.
How about, "I've already been infected" or "I've existing 10-day isolation with no symptoms" or " I received a negative test today"?

Is there a reason why a person that has already been infected should be required to wear after receiving a negative test or after symptoms have ceased?
Because in a public place, there is no way to know if you are being honest. Do you want to carry a doctors note?

My gosh, I don't enjoy wearing a mask but I do it without complaint because it's the most effective way for me to participate in the solution rather then just focusing on myself.

It's such an over the top reaction to say we'll have to wear them forever. It's just an excuse to avoid owning a refusal to help others.
"the solution". Interesting phrasing there.

Also when you get off your high horse there, masked knight, answer this. Does wearing masks reduce the number of people who ultimately get infected or does it delay the time period of that infection? Another-words does the area under the curve decrease or stay the same (if not get larger). If you don't see where this is going... hospitalization rates why is that no longer used as the measuring stick for shutdowns and risk levels?


I think that less people getting sick and dying until we have better mitigation tactics and finally a vaccine is a pretty good plan. Not sure how more people dying faster is a better plan.


Breaking news:

More people aren't dying faster.
It has nothing to do with masks
nortex97
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Terrible data with terrible statistical analysis, and terrible correlation, sounds great. Wear a mask to be part of a 'final' solution, also sounds wonderful.

What if, gasp, lots of Kansans travel between counties and/or interact with folks from outside their county regularly? What if some counties are...right on state lines, or are much more urban? What scientific analysis for cheap cloth masks worn for extended time periods having an impact on upper respiratory virus spread was used as a predicate for mask usage? Just a few random thoughts.

I worry about masquerade believers.
Capitol Ag
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Little Bill said:

What I don't understand is the almost religious zeal against wearing masks. It reminds me of those who are extremely anti-vaccinations.

Wearing a mask isn't a giant imposition on personal freedom. It doesn't prevent you from going out, living your life, or running your business. It is much better than the asinine government-ordered shut downs that destroy the economy.

Is the scientific evidence 100% in support? No.

Is there strong evidence in support? Yes.

Wearing a mask is part of our civic duty while we muddle our way through this fiasco/pandemic. Wearing masks is a good way to be a helpful and patriotic member of society and to help those who are more vulnerable.

If there is a 50/50 chance that wearing a mask saves your neighbor or grandparent, why wouldn't you do it?
There isn't a 50/50 chance though.

And it's not a "religious zeal" against wearing a mask. This is a government mandate. And the issue for many is that our entire system of government has been established with checks and balances. These mandates will come into effect without that. And not once has a state leader stated publicly that this will end once we gain control of the virus. Heck, quite a few have stated the opposite and that tends to rub people the wrong way. Sure, no one knows an exact date that the mandates can be removed but at least say it is only temporary, and that we won't be wearing these damn things the rest of our lives. At least try to reassure the public. I am not as worried about TX. But other states still have lockdowns and closures. Many have mask mandates that are absolutely ridiculous and unnecessary. Here in TX it is much more reasonable. You must wear a mask when you cannot have social distancing of 6 feet or more and must be worn indoors in public places. In other states, not so much. There are some hilarious rules in other states that don't even follow established science on mask mitigation practically forcing people to wear a mask anywhere and everywhere. Add in governors like NM's who state that the mandate is to last beyond when a vaccine would be introduced, and people become understandably concerned.
merc
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I see people with masks on everywhere I go. Work/store/school etc. I do what I'm asked to do to enter private businesses/work etc. It is hard to trust anyone though because like so many other things in our cultural I feel like we lost perspective. We have such a "gotcha" way of operating I always find myself wondering if some of the people in charge are making the call because it is right or because they don't want to be "canceled" later.
Cassius
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Federale01 said:

I have yet to see someone present a logical reason for not wearing a mask.

I have yet to see any evidence that they work to mitigate the overall transmission of the virus. Do you wear a mask during flu season?

The door to my liquor store is not cleaned. 100s/1000s of people walk through and touch it it every day. They then touch the doors to the frig section and maybe pick up and put back numerous bottles of liquor that has been touched by 100s of other patrons. They then exchange money and their goods with the clerk, who has touched money and bottles from 100s of other customers that day. They then touch the door on the way out - which is never cleaned and has been touched by 100s/1000s of other patrons. They then remove their mask and drop it on the seat, to wear to the next place. The mask is worn over and over again. On no, the mask now has germs from 1000s of people on it. They then pick up their kid who moves the mask to get in the seat to be taken to school. On no, the kid now has those germs on their hands and takes them to school and touches all kinds of other stuff. And so on and so forth...

Help me Barry Marshall.
texagbeliever
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tomtomdrumdrum said:

texagbeliever said:

bay fan said:

tysker said:

Federale01 said:

I have yet to see someone present a logical reason for not wearing a mask.
How about, "I've already been infected" or "I've existing 10-day isolation with no symptoms" or " I received a negative test today"?

Is there a reason why a person that has already been infected should be required to wear after receiving a negative test or after symptoms have ceased?
Because in a public place, there is no way to know if you are being honest. Do you want to carry a doctors note?

My gosh, I don't enjoy wearing a mask but I do it without complaint because it's the most effective way for me to participate in the solution rather then just focusing on myself.

It's such an over the top reaction to say we'll have to wear them forever. It's just an excuse to avoid owning a refusal to help others.
"the solution". Interesting phrasing there.

Also when you get off your high horse there, masked knight, answer this. Does wearing masks reduce the number of people who ultimately get infected or does it delay the time period of that infection? Another-words does the area under the curve decrease or stay the same (if not get larger). If you don't see where this is going... hospitalization rates why is that no longer used as the measuring stick for shutdowns and risk levels?


I think that less people getting sick and dying until we have better mitigation tactics and finally a vaccine is a pretty good plan. Not sure how more people dying faster is a better plan.
That isn't really thinking, that is emotions masquerading as "thinking". Do you think depression is a made up consequence? How about all of the "at risk" kids who aren't logging in to remote school and are falling even further behind? How about all the people who have skipped medical treatment out of fear of the virus?

You are only counting the costs that are most easily observed and giving them more weight because they are easier for you to see. It is a natural flaw of human nature. Which occurs more often the letter K as the first letter or the 3rd letter? It is easier for you to think of words that start with K so you guess more words start with k. But actually more words have k as the 3rd letter. That is called the "availability heuristic"
Federale01
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This is a BS false dichotomy. I have gone into my office every day since this broke out. I work in a large shared office. I am not afraid to go into the office, stores, etc. But I do not mind being uncomfortable or inconvenienced if there is even the slightest chance it helps my co-workers and their family. Wearing a mask doesn't mean one is cowering with fear. It means one is willing to have respect for those they interact with.
Capitol Ag
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bay fan said:

tysker said:

Federale01 said:

I have yet to see someone present a logical reason for not wearing a mask.
How about, "I've already been infected" or "I've existing 10-day isolation with no symptoms" or " I received a negative test today"?

Is there a reason why a person that has already been infected should be required to wear after receiving a negative test or after symptoms have ceased?
Because in a public place, there is no way to know if you are being honest. Do you want to carry a doctors note?

My gosh, I don't enjoy wearing a mask but I do it without complaint because it's the most effective way for me to participate in the solution rather then just focusing on myself.


But it's not a 'solution". It's a mitigation. I see where the masks MAY help in mitigating viral spread, but I cannot see where masks are a solution at all. I know your posting history. You are smart, so I figure you realize this. But terms like "solution" and "cure" when used in relation to mask usage sends the wrong message and again, makes people not want to wear them as they think supporters of masks think it is some miracle solution. It isn't. One can still contract the virus wearing a mask. One can still spread it. It may provide a limitation for viral load though, which, if actually true, could save a person's life. The wearer (it's ok to be worried about yourself here) and those around the wearer. But it is no solution. Herd immunity is a solution, a vaccine is a solution. Better treatments are a solution. All of which would eliminate the need for masks.


Quote:

It's such an over the top reaction to say we'll have to wear them forever. It's just an excuse to avoid owning a refusal to help others.

Again, have some understanding for those that feel this way. I believe their concerns are very real. Why? B/c, while I do wear my mask, I agree with them. You have to admit that a lot has transpired to make people feel this way and it is not an excuse. Again, there are state governors and doctors stating that masks should be worn after a real solution like a vaccine is introduced. And maybe they mean for a few more months until everyone has a chance to get the vaccine if they want it. But they are not saying that. Phrasing is so important if you are a leader or expert. Just saying a statement to try to reassure the public that this is temporary could go a massive way to getting people to maybe wear the masks more. Again, very few I see aren't wearing them so I am not too worried. We will never have 100% compliance and honestly I doubt we need that.
Federale01
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I take the flu vaccine every year to do my part to prevent the spread of the flu. Plus, flu outbreaks don't overwhelm hospitals to the point of critical failure. People react different to this disease because it is novel and our actions need to reflect that.
beerad12man
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Well I do mind. Good for you. I don't think you are cowering in fear. It's your right to wear one. Go ahead, I won't make fun of you and certainly would hope others will stop. It's stupid to. But I do take issue with others preaching to those who don't want to wear them that they are selfish and self centered.

I'll do it when required and only then. Not because someone else wants me to, or if they try to pressure me into it by calling me selfish for not. The second this isn't a requirement, they are coming off for good for me. If others want to continue to wear them, go ahead. I do not believe they are worth the negative psychological/societal effect for the MINOR, if any, benefit one might get from wearing them. Especially if they are not the right types, and not being worn 100% correctly and sanitarily.

Depression, suicide, drug overdose is all up. While this is obviously mostly due to the pandemic itself, I do think the masks play a role in it that some others don't factor in. It just creates a terrible atmosphere when going out.
cone
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meanwhile and apropos of nothing, when I see people walking outdoors with mask on I see nothing but magical thinking.
texagbeliever
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Federale01 said:

I take the flu vaccine every year to do my part to prevent the spread of the flu. Plus, flu outbreaks don't overwhelm hospitals to the point of critical failure. People react different to this disease because it is novel and our actions need to reflect that.
At what point in America has the American hospital system been overwhelmed to the point of critical failure?

I don't understand the bold comment at all. Why does being novel require different actions?
beerad12man
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As for the solution. At the end of the day, your solution may differ from someone else's solution. Some of us still believe to this day that herd immunity among the young and healthy may very well be the best way to recover from this on the whole,and still believe that in many areas we'd already be there(or at least a good resistance to the disease through immunity if not outright herd immunity) if we stopped trying to mitigate this thing. I've thought since about April when we found out who this attacked that wearing masks and social distancing among the young and healthy was/is insane and merely delaying us getting back to some semblance of normalcy. This could potentially make it safer more quickly for the elderly and high risk to live their life.

If you merely said when you are going to be around the elderly or in enclosed places for long periods of time rather than wearing them at all times, you might get more compliance out of them when it's truly needed as opposed to just when it feels good. This having to wear one every single time I walk into HEB does nothing, short of me directly coughing or sneezing on someone. And if I really had to sneeze, I could bat wing it anyways . I'm not within 6 feet of anyone for more than 5-10 seconds throughout the whole trip. My point is, we tend to go overboard with rules and mitigation when something is new, rather than just use common sense. You see this all the time in businesses, government, everything. Rules for the sake of rules even when it makes minimal to no difference. I loathe that mentality. I need tangible, real evidence on something to make a drastic change or sacrifice.

Again, I wear them when businesses require them, and if I HAVE to get near an elderly. To wear them at all times in public no matter what just seems like a gross waste of time and more pandering/making yourself feel good than actually being part of a solution.

As for contact with the elderly, other than my parents who won't let me wear them anyways, is extremely rare anyways. No reason for me to wear them only around people my age.
ORAggieFan
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Federale01 said:

This is a BS false dichotomy. I have gone into my office every day since this broke out. I work in a large shared office. I am not afraid to go into the office, stores, etc. But I do not mind being uncomfortable or inconvenienced if there is even the slightest chance it helps my co-workers and their family. Wearing a mask doesn't mean one is cowering with fear. It means one is willing to have respect for those they interact with.

You seem to think one that disagrees with masks working don't wear them. I hate the damn things. I didn't to begin with. I proudly took pictures showing my family being responsible with masks. Then I did my research. I learned the CDC guidelines in masks. I read all the studies. Now, I still wear it where required, but that doesn't mean I'm happy about it or remaining silent.

I help coach baseball. The kids aren't required to wear masks. The coaches, who are all parents of kids on the team, are required to. Please explain this logic. One coach got reprimanded by the league for not having a mask and he was playing the outfield without a single kid near him. We are refusing to use simple logic.
Capitol Ag
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Federale01 said:

This is a BS false dichotomy. I have gone into my office every day since this broke out. I work in a large shared office. I am not afraid to go into the office, stores, etc. But I do not mind being uncomfortable or inconvenienced if there is even the slightest chance it helps my co-workers and their family. Wearing a mask doesn't mean one is cowering with fear. It means one is willing to have respect for those they interact with.
Only thing is, I know people that are bordering on cowering in fear. And it's unjustified. But unfortunately they believe the press and the over the top way the virus is being reported. A very good friend, who is a very smart man, just cancelled his gym membership as, per what he told me, "employees are skirting the guidelines." He doesn't feel comfortable. But, as a former employee of that gym, I can see where it would be impossible to truly do all the measures that gyms set forth sometimes. It is a larger gym. And given that the CDC has even dialed back their initial theories regarding how long the virus can live on surfaces, it is unlikely a person would contract it from a surface at a gym. Sure, small, enclosed rooms with a large number of people could be an issue (there is a well documented case of a cycle class where a number of participants contracted the virus). But there has been little evidence of viral spread in weight rooms as those are usually larger areas where social distancing is easy to accomplish unless during peak hours, and he doesn't go during peak hours. That includes weight rooms that do not enforce masks, which most I know about do not. But my issue is that he needs to train. He is overweight and its a tradeoff. If he doesn't go to the gym, he won't be exercising. And even he knows that those who are in very good shape have better immune systems. My advice was for him to create a garage gym. I did. Not for Covid, but b/c I worked in a gym. I would get pulled off the floor during sets and interrupted while training myself, which I hated. Plus I mainly use a power rack (not a smith machine-those damn things are useless except as an overpriced way to store plates) and if that was being used, I had to wait. so I slowly put together a garage gym. And for his health, I told him he needs to. He will feel much more comfortable and he has the money to do it.

I totally understand people not feeling comfortable but at the same time, I feel that there are other, greater threats in gyms like MRCA and other microbes besides Covid. I also feel that it is imperative one get themselves into shape especially because that is one comorbidity a person can have control over eliminating. The risk is worth the reward. So if you aren't going to train at a gym, build your own. I know it's hard to find equipment but they do come back in stock. Get on the email lists. Most manufacturers have them. And they get stuff in regularly it just sells out fast, so be on the ball about it. Walking and running alone won't cut it. One needs weight training to truly maximize the benefits of fitness. And, of course, a good nutrition plan. But I am just afraid the folks staying away from the gym are getting into worse shape now and are becoming even more susceptible to the viruses worst effects.

Other areas I see are people not going out to eat or not going to events and stores. That is also not good for your health. Again, it's a tradeoff. And if you are in the at risk category, sure. But these are younger people that are not truly at risk. But I truly feel that getting out and about is how we evolved. Socializing is essential. Experiencing things is vital. And especially when these people have children. I am glad you get out. Go to the office etc. There are people who don't though, yet their risk is very low of something serious happening to them.
Cassius
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Federale01 said:

I take the flu vaccine every year to do my part to prevent the spread of the flu. Plus, flu outbreaks don't overwhelm hospitals to the point of critical failure. People react different to this disease because it is novel and our actions need to reflect that.

You do realize that the flu vaccine doesn't work on everyone, right?! That's why we want everyone to get it, so we have herd immunity to protect those that get it but where its not effective. Additionally, the vaccine is a guess on which mutation it will be. They do miss the mark.

This is not and hasn't been about overwhelming hospitals after the first week. Please tell me you don't believe that?! So, assuming masks work (again, no evidence of transmission mitigation) you are OK not wearing one and spreading a deadly disease and potentially giving it to someone and killing them as long as the hospitals can handle it?! Ok then.
ORAggieFan
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Federale01 said:

I take the flu vaccine every year to do my part to prevent the spread of the flu. Plus, flu outbreaks don't overwhelm hospitals to the point of critical failure. People react different to this disease because it is novel and our actions need to reflect that.

You're speaking as if this is March. Hospitals aren't being overwhelmed. The fact that it is novel really doesn't matter now as we've learned so much.

Can you point to mask mandate effectiveness in any Western country?
Philip J Fry
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Quote:

Wearing a mask isn't a giant imposition on personal freedom.


Because we've learned that when you give the hover man inch, they take a mile.
Federale01
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https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/16/pandemic-states-virus-rebound-429753

In many parts of the country, yes they are.
Federale01
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I was pointing out the difference to how this disease effects people differently than the flu. You implied we don't do anything against the flu as a society therefore we shouldn't worry about doing anything with this virus. They are different circumstances. We have a flu vaccine and our bodies have been exposed to flu for a long time. It takes a very unique strain to cause death outside of folks with weakened immune systems.

This is a novel virus and we still don't know how or why it does what it does. Countless people have died of this that would have easily survived a flu infection. Several doctors who post here have shared their stories on how perplexing this virus and our bodies reaction to it really are. They are different circumstances.
Federale01
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DP
Federale01
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I agree there. I don't understand those who wear them just walking down the street, or worse yet, alone in their car. I know some cities have mandates for outside usage to help prevent the spread through crowds, but I take mine off when I get outside of a building
cone
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this is my coherence issue

one side claims science whole heartedly but hand waves away claims of magical thinking

the other appeals to the skepticism inherent to science but won't admit to the knowledge problem of early pandemic and the hierarchy of practical NPIs

in short, the mask may not do a damn thing, but it's cheap and we don't have time to really science it out right now.
nortex97
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Masks don't do anything but virtue signal that you are part of the 'solution' and compliant population.

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2020/10/do-masks-work.php

It's just silliness, but for the oppressive state/social requirements. Like working with someone who is a wiccan or some weird religion where everyone has to tiptoe around their sensitivities like an episode in the Office (but now Michael Scott is in charge in some states/countries).
BeeAg
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We have run out of logic. Everything now is based on reactionary emotions.
texagbeliever
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Federale01 said:

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/16/pandemic-states-virus-rebound-429753

In many parts of the country, yes they are.
If they were "overwhelmed to critical failure" the bar you set, the state governors could easily call up Trump and request support from the National Guard. They could also set up medical triage facilities. Also a nurse shortage is a temporary problem that is handled efficiently by the market place by paying nurses to travel to areas of need. There are entire businesses setup that staff and provide this sort of service.

Can you just admit your statement was hyperbolic and that hospitalizations are not a current issue when accounting for flex care capacity? It is okay to be wrong, it isn't okay to be wrong and know it.
Federale01
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No, it wasn't hyperbolic. Hospitals had hit that level earlier this year and, if not for the precautions set to limit the spread, they would do so again. You can't use the current hospital status we have now after we shut down half the economy, enforced social distancing, and mandated masks as evidence this virus wouldn't cause hospitals to fail if we didn't take those actions. It is obvious with what happened in places like Italy, Moscow, and NY that this virus absolutely can cause hospital systems to fail, which, back to my original point, is why it is different than the flu.

He then said no hospital systems are in danger of being overwhelmed now, which the article addresses. Those are two separate premises.


 
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