People blaming the kid just like when you fart in public and blame the kid! Always the kid's fault!

The data I have seen, from the very beginning, has consistently shown the risk of death to someone under 18 to be basically zero. Lottery type odds, but if I had a child who had other health issues I might be more concerned. Up as mentioned above, annual influenza kills more children. Now, based on current numbers and lockdowns, way more kids may get exposed to the flu in a typical year than kids exposed to Covid, but looking at deaths to confirmed cases in the age group the risk is still negligible. I think that holds true for hospitalization risk as well but I don't confidently recall those numbers.

It's hard for me to buy kids NOT being able to transmit it, that would be unique in the virus world would it not? Less likely, sure. But I'm not going to buy a human can get it from a bat but not another human. So I do think kids will spread it to each other, to teachers, to their family at home. It could be in low overall numbers, but it will happen. Some number of teachers greater than zero may die, or a grandparent in the home. Unfortunately, light research easily turns up many examples of this happening due to influenza as well.

Many people forget day cares have been open this entire time. People who must work outside the home have relied on these daycares, including people we know, and I've not heard of any disasters or tragedies or even news worthy issues that have arisen. We've sent our three kids to summer camps and while they have had some positive cases among staff and shut down, I've heard of no hospitalizations or deaths but it's possible it happened. We do plan to send our freshman, sixth and fourth graders physically to school if allowed.

Daycare <> Schools.

Look at summer camps, not daycare, for how fast it can spread.

Every time I drive by the ATM otherwise known as Chik Filla in Cedar Park and see the dozens of high school kids working inside a hot, humid building for 8 hours at a time I wonder how many of them are getting sick?

They're wearing masks (not the point of this) and gloves...but they're talking, yelling, banging around in this enclosed space and I haven't heard of one kid getting sick or showing symptoms and I literally live in the capital of Karen or it feels that way.

Its a one off but how have one of these locations not been ravaged by community spread their workforce if the disease can spread for days before symptoms appear in a place that can't practice social distancing and everyone is talking/yelling very loudly through masks that are n95 (I swear this isn't about masks don't make it about that).

It makes no sense (to my non scientist mind) that a population that catches everything else isn't catching this or spreading this at scale but here we are.

culdeus said:

---

Daycare <> Schools.

Look at summer camps, not daycare, for how fast it can spread.

---

Exactly why we need to get kids together before school starts. The speed of infection among children and the fact that children don't easily transmit to adults makes one wonder if we had not closed schools (especially grade schools) would we be further along with this epidemic.

I'm not following

what's the fundamental difference you're trying to draw?

culdeus said:

---

Daycare <> Schools.

Look at summer camps, not daycare, for how fast it can spread.

---

Daycare is like school. Kids inside a building for 7-9 hours. Certainly not like an overnight summer camp, and not even like many summer camps were the majority of time is outside. My kids have been in summer camps - one is inside for three hours with less than ten people, wearing masks. No adult or kids cases there all summer. My other two go to a mostly outdoor camp, with no masks or social distancing though, and 2 of the 5 weeks have been cancelled due to a single case among all the counselors, not ever due to a kid's case yet. And after the one week shutdown they will resume in each case since it hasn't spread.

Overnight camps would be different to me since large groups of kids tend to sleep in a single room, with no masks, for 8-10 hour straight.

Perhaps most importantly, the AAP guidance.

https://services.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/clinical-guidance/covid-19-planning-considerations-return-to-in-person-education-in-schools/

Quote:

---

Policy makers must also consider the mounting evidence regarding COVID-19 in children and adolescents, including the role they may play in transmission of the infection. SARS-CoV-2 appears to behave differently in children and adolescents than other common respiratory viruses, such as influenza, on which much of the current guidance regarding school closures is based. Although children and adolescents play a major role in amplifying influenza outbreaks, to date, this does not appear to be the case with SARS-CoV-2. Although many questions remain, the preponderance of evidence indicates that children and adolescents are less likely to be symptomatic and less likely to have severe disease resulting from SARS-CoV-2 infection. In addition, children may be less likely to become infected and to spread infection. Policies to mitigate the spread of COVID-19 within schools must be balanced with the known harms to children, adolescents, families, and the community by keeping children at home.

---

The entire document should be read, as it has smart policy recommendations.

Complete Idiot said:

---

culdeus said:

---

Daycare <> Schools.

Look at summer camps, not daycare, for how fast it can spread.

---

Daycare is like school. Kids inside a building for 7-9 hours. Certainly not like an overnight summer camp, and not even like many summer camps were the majority of time is outside. My kids have been in summer camps - one is inside for three hours with less than ten people, wearing masks. No adult or kids cases there all summer. My other two go to a mostly outdoor camp, with no masks or social distancing though, and 2 of the 5 weeks have been cancelled due to a single case among all the counselors, not ever due to a kid's case yet. And after the one week shutdown they will resume in each case since it hasn't spread.

Overnight camps would be different to me since large groups of kids tend to sleep in a single room, with no masks, for 8-10 hour straight.

---

The ages of the kids matter.

Under 5 seems zero risk

If you look at camps like K2 with kids over 13, they had 82 cases that materialized in a matter of a week of exposure. They had 5000 other kids at younger camps that had zero cases to date. That's something to look at.

Now none of them ?obviously? will get sick (not sure we will know), but to say because day cares have avoided any detected cases means you leverage this on schools is silly.

Day cares also tend to have much fewer kids than a school. Even a 2 class JH will have 500 kids in it. That matters also.

https://t.co/VwsCWuL19t?amp=1

The effect of school closures in Finland vs Sweden was studied. Linked above.



Conclusions

Closing of schools had no measurable effect on the number of cases of covid-
19 among children.

Children are not a major risk group of the covid-19 disease and seem to play a
less important role from the transmission point of view, although more active
surveillance and special studies such as school and household transmission
studies are warranted.

The negative effects of closing schools must be weighed against the possible
positive indirect effects it might have on the mitigation of the covid-19
pandemic.

Good discussion on this thread. That Denmark data is very interesting. I did a little news feature on KBTX about the AAP recs.

https://www.kbtx.com/2020/06/29/local-pediatrician-return-to-in-person-learning-is-the-right-move/

Great job on that interview!
As an educator, I don't envy the administrators who are trying to figure all of this out.

ETFan said:

---

Skillet Shot said:

---

JesusQuintana said:

---

Skillet Shot said:

---

380Ag said:

---

That's odd.
Our nanny's 4yo stepson gave it to her entire family.
Maybe they got it because they aren't French...

---

It's funny how certain anecdotal reports are used as justification to push certain narratives (kids spreading virus, young people dying, long-term health consequences post recovery) while other anecdotal reports (HCQ, steroids and other treatments effectiveness) are quickly dismissed as trivial.

For the record, I am not denying the severity and seriousness of the disease. And I do believe in science confirming the efficacy of medical treatments (when the studies aren't flawed).

Fewer kids have died from COVID than the flu over the same time period. Multiple studies have shown significantly reduced virus spreading from children, who are mostly asymptomatic. Find a way to protect the teachers if necessary, but closing the schools for another semester is anti-science fear mongering.


Even the CDC admits there is no data supporting children being major drivers in the spread of the virus.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/08/cdc-director-says-theres-no-data-children-drive-coronavirus-spread-but-the-us-isnt-testing-many-kids.html

---

The key points in that link are very typical of everything from leadership so far. First person says we don't have evidence that children are drivers of the virus. Second person says not so fast, we don't have enough data to arrive at that conclusion.

---

The burden of proof lies on those who are proposing the fundamental change. You cannot logically shut down schools based on a lack of evidence showing children don't spread the virus.

I do agree the CDC article is a little wishy washy. Try this one.

https://www.rivm.nl/en/novel-coronavirus-covid-19/children-and-covid-19

---

Wouldn't it be logical to assume children DO spread a coronavirus (like other coronaviruses and the flu) and work from there?

I am NOT saying we need to keep schools closed or that COVID-19 is a major danger to children or that they are a major vector, just commenting on your statement specifically.

---

I agree that is a logical assumption. But in order to justify shutting down schools and the way of life for most American families, evidence needs to be shown to prove that assumption. An honest risk assessment needs to be weighed with pros and cons considered, but nuanced thought is lost on most issues in our society unfortunately on both sides of the aisle.

It is different from the flu/cold in the sense that most children are asymptomatic to Sars-Cov-2, which has shown to be less transmissible than someone who is showing symptoms. Plus the data from other European schools that have kept schools open.

Skillet Shot said:

---

380Ag said:

---

That's odd.
Our nanny's 4yo stepson gave it to her entire family.
Maybe they got it because they aren't French...

---

It's funny how certain anecdotal reports are used as justification to push certain narratives (kids spreading virus, young people dying, long-term health consequences post recovery) while other anecdotal reports (HCQ, steroids and other treatments effectiveness) are quickly dismissed as trivial.

For the record, I am not denying the severity and seriousness of the disease. And I do believe in science confirming the efficacy of medical treatments (when the studies aren't flawed).

Fewer kids have died from COVID than the flu over the same time period. Multiple studies have shown significantly reduced virus spreading from children, who are mostly asymptomatic. Find a way to protect the teachers if necessary, but closing the schools for another semester is anti-science fear mongering.


Even the CDC admits there is no data supporting children being major drivers in the spread of the virus.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/08/cdc-director-says-theres-no-data-children-drive-coronavirus-spread-but-the-us-isnt-testing-many-kids.html

---

KidDoc said:

---

Good discussion on this thread. That Denmark data is very interesting. I did a little news feature on KBTX about the AAP recs.

https://www.kbtx.com/2020/06/29/local-pediatrician-return-to-in-person-learning-is-the-right-move/

---

Good interview!

My aunt works at Irving ISD. They just announced or will announce soon that first grade and lower will not return to school. Teachers will instead generate lesson plans to follow while staying at home.

I just checked Irving ISD's web site. It seems they will have an in-person and online option, just like pretty much every other district. Nothing was mentioned about online-only for certain grades.

this seems completely backwards

I run a preschool/daycare. We are not normally open in the summer, as we run on a traditional school calendar, but I have director friends I talk to that are open right now.

I am looking at my reopening plans and reviewing the recommendations for reopening. Honestly, we already do so many of the recommendations with our hand washing procedures and sanitation. Its a requirement for us and is part of our yearly training for our teachers. For us, we already have small class sizes. We are still going to limit to the recommended 10 per classroom. Each classroom already has its own bathroom and handwashing sink. We already eat in the classrooms and sanitize after lunch. Each class can go outside to the playground and not have to interact with others. The morning procedures of screenings and drop-off are different, but will be doable. We will not have much contact with parents. Obviously teachers wearing masks will be an additional protocol to follow. We will have to be more strict about our illness policies.

I really think that the fact that we already have protocols in place that we normally have to follow for Child Care Licencing puts Day Cares and preschools at an advantage. We will just be intensifying our procedures and keeping groups to themselves. I think this is why I am not hearing of any big issues from any of my director friends. We already do a lot of these things anyway.

I think it will be much harder on our public schools and teachers to adjust. Much bigger groups of kids, teachers not use to all of the protocols of handwashing and sanitizing. I don't think you can compare daycares/preschools to camps and public schools.

Bruce Almighty said:

---

380Ag said:

---

That's odd.
Our nanny's 4yo stepson gave it to her entire family.
Maybe they got it because they aren't French...

---

Kids passing it to adults is more common than kids passing it to other kids.

---

I think that's at root of the school debate. Many kids live multi generationally.

bay fan said:

---

Bruce Almighty said:

---

380Ag said:

---

That's odd.
Our nanny's 4yo stepson gave it to her entire family.
Maybe they got it because they aren't French...

---

Kids passing it to adults is more common than kids passing it to other kids.

---

I think that's at root of the school debate. Many kids live multi generationally.

---

How many 5%-10% of all students? How many are going to pass it on to elder family that cant otherwise be isolated or taken care of? So the other 90-95% kids that don't live multi-generationally are going to get a subpar education to protect the less than than 1% of students that may infect elder family member that may live in the same household? 99% of us have to bear the cost of protecting the 1%.

Keegan99 said:

---

I just checked Irving ISD's web site. It seems they will have an in-person and online option, just like pretty much every other district. Nothing was mentioned about online-only for certain grades.

---

I trust my aunt as she directly makes calls to families and hears about what goes down the pipeline. I'll let you know if I hear differently from her when we all talk again as a family.

Hopefully it was just an idea floating around that has no merit and she spoke about it incorrectly.

bay fan said:

---

Bruce Almighty said:

---

380Ag said:

---

That's odd.
Our nanny's 4yo stepson gave it to her entire family.
Maybe they got it because they aren't French...

---

Kids passing it to adults is more common than kids passing it to other kids.

---

I think that's at root of the school debate. Many kids live multi generationally.

---

Homeschooling is an option

Re: hand washing
Are hands supposed to be washed in warm water? Do y'all use paper towels or air dryers?

We have to control the temp of hot water due to safety reasons, so our water is not hot.

We use the EnMotion touch-less towel system. Will be adding the touchless soap dispensers.

I was under the impression that water temperature doesn't matter. The soap is doing all the work.

380Ag said:

---

That's odd.
Our nanny's 4yo stepson gave it to her entire family.
Maybe they got it because they aren't French...

---

Around here, there is a husband and wife and two babies have it and the husband's ex-wife and one of their two kids has it, too. The doctors think the other kid has it but hasn't tested positive yet.

I don't think that the husband and ex-wife have much in the way of close contact, so it would seem likely that it may have been passed between them by the kid.

Thanks for the information. I don't make any important decisions for my district, but I'm interested in the guidelines that are in place for daycares. I probably should look those up.

If you want to see the typical things we have to do for a normal situation, go look up the Minimum Standards for Child Care Center for Texas. It will break down when we have to wash hands, how we clean etc.

If you want to see what they are recommending for schools and daycares to do now, go to https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/schools-childcare/guidance-for-schools.html.

Texas A&M Agrilife Extension also has some required training that we are having to do for Covid. I am recommending it for my public school teacher friends.

That is correct. Soap is the important component and they say that soap and water is best, even over hand sanitizer.

A friend of mine just took his kid to Summer camp. His entire family got it and 80+ kids at the camp. The spread it for sure.

Aggie1946 said:

---

A friend of mine just took his kid to Summer camp. His entire family got it and 80+ kids at the camp. The spread it for sure.

---

What age? When most of the papers are referring to "kids" they are talking about 10 and under. It is well known that older kids/teens spread it.

Agreed, I know several people in camps where kids got it and were 18+, a few 14-15. With schools I think elementary will be okay and most middle schools. High schools seem like they are going to have a few outbreaks which is going to be the most difficult to deal with.

Aggie1946 said:

---

A friend of mine just took his kid to Summer camp. His entire family got it and 80+ kids at the camp. The spread it for sure.

---

Here?

Missouri summer camp with 82 cases