Some interesting clinical points regarding COVID-19

18,751 Views | 89 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by McInnis 03
Infection_Ag11
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AG
As some of you are aware, I'm an infectious diseases physician in the Dallas area. I wanted to provide some clinical information compiled from US patient populations based on discussions with my colleagues around the state and country in ID, EM and pulm crit. Much of this is from the cases in Washington. If you find anything over your head and want further clarification please ask, I know we forget what constitutes professional shop talk sometimes.

This is a very unique virus, it behaves very differently from the more common coronaviruses which cause the common cold and from most respiratory viruses in general. It's actually quite different than influenza in its clinical characteristics. Even compared to the original SARS it's a little unique. Once you see a couple it's actually not too hard to recognize because of this.

Runny nose, congestion and GI symptoms are uncommon (no more than 5-10%) and any of these combined with the absence of or only short lived fever effectively excludes the diagnosis. These people fever consistently for days, often high fevers.

The myalgias are less intense than with influenza.

Everyone has a cough at some point

Kids aren't really becoming ill very often, and symptoms are very rare under age 12 or so. They are possibly serving as asymptomatic carriers however.

Almost all of these patients are lymphopenic (low lymphocyte counts, a type of white blood cell).

Most have mild to moderate liver function test elevations (AST/ALT 3-5x the upper limit of normal)

They all have chest imaging abnormalities and essentially everyone has at least a mild (maybe even sub clinical) viral pneumonia by imaging. The findings are generally bilateral. This is in contrast to influenza which more often results in a post viral bacterial pneumonia, rather than primary viral pneumonia (though both do happen).

We are seeing some young healthy patients do poorly. It's not the norm, but it happens. We will have some 20s-40s die in Texas.

If respiratory failure happens it will occur at day 7-8 almost like clockwork. And it happens FAST, mild hypoxia to full blown ARDS usually in only hours. The critical care guys are saying you can literally watch it happen in front of you some times.

A lot of these patients are dying not of persistently poor oxygenation on a ventilator, but due to cardiac arrhythmias. It's believed to be related to viral myocarditis and many are going into full blown cardiogenic shock. Lots of Vfib/Vtach.

Remdesivir looks promising, it was developed for viral hemorrhagic fevers (think Ebola) but seems to have good activity against many RNA viruses. It's leading to much more rapid improvement of the respiratory failure in our small sample sizes. A few loopholes and exclusion criteria to get through, though.

I'll post more tomorrow, gonna try and get some rest while the pager is silent lol
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MRB10
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AG
Stay home, go to PCP, or go to hospital, if experiencing flu or pneumonia like symptoms?

I work in the P&C insurance industry. Specifically, I underwrite various coverages for systems on par(size wise) with Mayo Clinic. I've had four separate clients tell me there may be anecdotal evidence to support the hypothesis that having this seasons flu shot may improve chances and speed of recovery. Have you heard anything that supports or debunks these comments?
Jet Black
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Man from the cruise ship said he only had high fever for 8 hours. 103 I believe is what he said. I could be wrong. Appreciate the info.
MCMXCVII
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AG
Good info. Thank you.
FamousAgg
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Thanks for the information. Below is 3rd party information from a Pulmonary specialist in China, who is a friend of a friend.

From my friend:
"She said the virus affected people drastically different and most of the time it had nothing to do with age, whether smoker/non-smoker, physical fitness, etc. Said it is unlike any virus she has ever studied. Has nothing to do with which of the 2 mutations either. She and her team of doctors are now researching why they see such drastically different responses to the coronavirus. Recently released her last NCOV-19 patient."

I believe the 2 strain theory is based on a Chinese study that is highly disputed currently. It seems like a very odd disease indeed.
Infection_Ag11
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BoilerAg10 said:

Stay home, go to PCP, or go to hospital, if experiencing flu or pneumonia like symptoms?


If you are able to care for yourself and carry out daily activities around the house without a restrictive degree of shortness of breath, stay home and isolate yourself as much as possible.

The time to come seek help, generally, is if you have shortness of breath that is limiting your ability to function.

Right now, without widespread testing, coming in for mild disease really does you no good and only exposed others.
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MRB10
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Thanks. I updated my post with another question. No rush, feel free to get to others first.
Infection_Ag11
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Jet Black said:

Man from the cruise ship said he only had high fever for 8 hours. 103 I believe is what he said. I could be wrong.


Medicine is a population based field and there are always outliers

That being said, a sustained 103 F for 8 hours is impressive. Most adults rarely sustain fevers so high for so long, apart from a few conditions notorious for that. And this means he likely had lower grade fevers before and after.
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Infection_Ag11
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BoilerAg10 said:

I work in the P&C insurance industry. Specifically, I underwrite various coverages for systems on par(size wise) with Mayo Clinic. I've had four separate clients tell me there may be anecdotal evidence to support the hypothesis that having this seasons flu shot may improve chances and speed of recovery. Have you heard anything that supports or debunks these comments?


This is definitely a claim that's out there, but it's unlikely. It would be too early with too little data to know anyway.

Now there is benefit from the standpoint that it helps prevent coinfections and reduces healthcare strain (less people coming in with the flu).
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Not a Bot
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Respiratory failure day 7-8 post symptoms or post exposure?
Infection_Ag11
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Moxley said:

Respiratory failure day 7-8 post symptoms or post exposure?


Symptoms

Disease can take up to 12-14 days post exposure to develop, but most get symptoms by days 2-4 post exposure
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Schall 02
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AG
Thank you. Gig 'em.
Big Al 1992
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Oxygen levels - what I've read if below 93 get to the ER. Sure sign of covid-19. If above 95 it's not CV. Any thoughts?
Not a Bot
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Big Al 1992 said:

Oxygen levels - what I've read if below 93 get to the ER. Sure sign of covid-19. If above 95 it's not CV. Any thoughts?


Low o2 could be flu, pneumonia, PE, or a range of other things. Not a sure sign of anything other than your body isn't getting quite enough o2.
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Infection_Ag11
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Big Al 1992 said:

Oxygen levels - what I've read if below 93 get to the ER. Sure sign of covid-19. If above 95 it's not CV. Any thoughts?


Not accurate, the degree of hypoxia isn't generally dependent on the disease but on the degree of pulmonary involvement and underlying cardiopulmonary status.

Influenza actually appears to cause a more refractory hypoxia in the setting of ARDS than COVID it seems
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TRADUCTOR
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Big Al 1992 said:

Oxygen levels - what I've read if below 93 get to the ER. Sure sign of covid-19. If above 95 it's not CV. Any thoughts?
Your a nerd with pulse oximetry device
Redassag94
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Thanks for the info! I just got off a cruise ship last weekend and the wife and I have had a head cold ever since. No fever at all just runny nose and scratchy throat. From what you are saying it sounds like we are fine.
Redassag94
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What are your thoughts on the seasonality of this virus? I read COVID 19 does not like warm weather.
Mordred
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Redassag94 said:

What are your thoughts on the seasonality of this virus? I read COVID 19 does not like warm weather.
Nobody knows for certain yet, but probably not much difference.
Infection_Ag11
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Redassag94 said:

What are your thoughts on the seasonality of this virus? I read COVID 19 does not like warm weather.


We don't know yet, but I'll say it's pretty warm in Singapore and that didn't seem to stop it
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MosesRAB-93
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How long does the sickness last for those that recover? After getting through it, is immunity developed?
Thomas Ford 91
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Quote:

A lot of these patients are dying not of persistently poor oxygenation on a ventilator, but due to cardiac arrhythmias. It's believed to be related to viral myocarditis and many are going into full blown cardiogenic shock. Lots of Vfib/Vtach.


I'm getting the sense these observations are coming from deaths that aren't in the official count. When you say "a lot" do you mean a lot of the 50 official deaths, or a lot of deaths that aren't in the official count because of testing restrictions?
erudite
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If you would do me a favor? In China they are claiming that people have up to 20% reduced lung function for anyone showing severe chest imaging abnormalities that (usually) require ventilation post treatment. If you could help keep an eye out and see if this holds true or not we might be able to debunk this rumor.
McInnis 03
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I saw the mention of remdesivir, are there any datasets coming back on the chloroquine/iv zinc effort to fight the virus or using tocilizumab when the cytokine storm occurs?
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erudite
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Stupid question. Isn't Chloroquine an anti-parasitic? Why would you use that? Or is it used to alleviate the symptoms?
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Infection_Ag11
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Thomas Ford 91 said:

Quote:

A lot of these patients are dying not of persistently poor oxygenation on a ventilator, but due to cardiac arrhythmias. It's believed to be related to viral myocarditis and many are going into full blown cardiogenic shock. Lots of Vfib/Vtach.


I'm getting the sense these observations are coming from deaths that aren't in the official count. When you say "a lot" do you mean a lot of the 50 official deaths, or a lot of deaths that aren't in the official count because of testing restrictions?


Both

Like I said, it's clinically very obvious once you see a few cases. About half the deaths the Seattle ICU guys are attributing to this are unofficial because they either couldn't get tested or were so sick it no longer mattered so they just put them on contact/airborne empirically.

We've only diagnosed a small minority of the cases out there.
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Infection_Ag11
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MosesRAB-93 said:

How long does the sickness last for those that recover? After getting through it, is immunity developed?


Around a week usually, and while we don't know for sure it's most likely that you do develop immunity.
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McInnis 03
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Supposedly chloroquine acts as a transport agent for zinc that can send it into the virus and destroy it, if in interrupting correctly
***If this post is on Business and Investing, take it with a grain of salt. I am wrong way more than I am right (but I am less wrong than I used to be) and if you follow me you will be too.***

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erudite
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Do you know the testing criteria for corona? I'm looking at the current (6th) edition guidelines published by the CCDC (Chinese CDC)

I also came across this snippet:
Quote:

There is significant deviation on sterilization regarding novel coronavirus in comparision to SARS/MERS. Adequate methods include
  • Intense UV exposure and applied heat at 56C for 30 minutes
  • Ethanol 75% concentration
  • Chlorine containing disinfectant
  • peracetic acid (?) translation literal: "Passthrough Oxygen Methyl acid"
  • Choloroform (?) translation literal: "Chlorine inminator"

bay fan
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S
Thank you. Clear delivery of important information.
Pasquale Liucci
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AG
Do you feel that the data coming from the SK and Italian outcomes are painting an accurate picture re: CFR by age groups?
Redassag94
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erudite said:

Do you know the testing criteria for corona? I'm looking at the current (6th) edition guidelines published by the CCDC (Chinese CDC)

I also came across this snippet:
Quote:

There is significant deviation on sterilization regarding novel coronavirus in comparision to SARS/MERS. Adequate methods include
  • Intense UV exposure and applied heat at 56C for 30 minutes
  • Ethanol 75% concentration
  • Chlorine containing disinfectant
  • peracetic acid (?) translation literal: "Passthrough Oxygen Methyl acid"
  • Choloroform (?) translation literal: "Chlorine inminator"




Chlorine plus disinfectant... Is that just adding dawn to your beach mixture? Is there a good recipe for beach cleaner that will kill the virus?
Patentmike
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Infection_Ag11 said:

As some of you are aware, I'm an infectious diseases physician in the Dallas area. I wanted to provide some clinical information compiled from US patient populations based on discussions with my colleagues around the state and country in ID, EM and pulm crit. Much of this is from the cases in Washington. If you find anything over your head and want further clarification please ask, I know we forget what constitutes professional shop talk sometimes.

This is a very unique virus, it behaves very differently from the more common coronaviruses which cause the common cold and from most respiratory viruses in general. It's actually quite different than influenza in its clinical characteristics. Even compared to the original SARS it's a little unique. Once you see a couple it's actually not too hard to recognize because of this.

Runny nose, congestion and GI symptoms are uncommon (no more than 5-10%) and any of these combined with the absence of or only short lived fever effectively excludes the diagnosis. These people fever consistently for days, often high fevers.

The myalgias are less intense than with influenza.

Everyone has a cough at some point

Kids aren't really becoming ill very often, and symptoms are very rare under age 12 or so. They are possibly serving as asymptomatic carriers however.

Almost all of these patients are lymphopenic (low lymphocyte counts, a type of white blood cell).

Most have mild to moderate liver function test elevations (AST/ALT 3-5x the upper limit of normal)

They all have chest imaging abnormalities and essentially everyone has at least a mild (maybe even sub clinical) viral pneumonia by imaging. The findings are generally bilateral. This is in contrast to influenza which more often results in a post viral bacterial pneumonia, rather than primary viral pneumonia (though both do happen).

We are seeing some young healthy patients do poorly. It's not the norm, but it happens. We will have some 20s-40s die in Texas.

If respiratory failure happens it will occur at day 7-8 almost like clockwork. And it happens FAST, mild hypoxia to full blown ARDS usually in only hours. The critical care guys are saying you can literally watch it happen in front of you some times.

A lot of these patients are dying not of persistently poor oxygenation on a ventilator, but due to cardiac arrhythmias. It's believed to be related to viral myocarditis and many are going into full blown cardiogenic shock. Lots of Vfib/Vtach.

Remdesivir looks promising, it was developed for viral hemorrhagic fevers (think Ebola) but seems to have good activity against many RNA viruses. It's leading to much more rapid improvement of the respiratory failure in our small sample sizes. A few loopholes and exclusion criteria to get through, though.

I'll post more tomorrow, gonna try and get some rest while the pager is silent lol
Are the Remdesivir results posted where the public can see them. I would like to watch those studies.
PatentMike, J.D.
BS Biochem
MS Molecular Virology


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