Aggies2009 said:

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12thMan9 said:

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There is no rule against what happened.

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People have quoted a few.

Is it not interference at the very least?

If there's no rule against it, what prevents our players from shoving others off the base and tagging them? Or grabbing their ankle and pulling until they're off the base?

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If there's no rule against it, then get a large guy (roughly the size of L$Us first base coach) and have him just knock the **** out of everyone running to first

So we'll push them off with the hand holding the ball. Same thing

trouble said:

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So we'll push them off with the hand holding the ball. Same thing

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Yes! But with a fat guy, we can push them real hard and real far

12thMan9 said:

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There is no rule against what happened.

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Rule 5.06(a)(1):
If in the judgment of an umpire, a runner is pushed or forced off a base by a fielder, intentionally or unintentionally, at which the runner would have otherwise been called safe, the umpire has the authority and discretion under the circumstances to return the runner to the base he was forced off following the conclusion of the play.

HoustonAg2106 said:

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12thMan9 said:

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There is no rule against what happened.

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Rule 5.06(a)(1):
If in the judgment of an umpire, a runner is pushed or forced off a base by a fielder, intentionally or unintentionally, at which the runner would have otherwise been called safe, the umpire has the authority and discretion under the circumstances to return the runner to the base he was forced off following the conclusion of the play.

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Unless you are Zach Neff and already called the runner safe

It's blatantly clear that Tucker's hand was established on the base and was FORCED off due to the tag. Don't know how anyone can see it differently, whether it was live or via replay. Ump ****ed up the call.

HoustonAg2106 said:

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12thMan9 said:

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There is no rule against what happened.

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Rule 5.06(a)(1):
If in the judgment of an umpire, a runner is pushed or forced off a base by a fielder, intentionally or unintentionally, at which the runner would have otherwise been called safe, the umpire has the authority and discretion under the circumstances to return the runner to the base he was forced off following the conclusion of the play.

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Rule 5.06(a)(2)
No one under age 30 shall umpire in the nation's most elite college baseball conference. And furthermore, he (or she) shall not be a dewsh and must know the freaking rules.

HoustonAg2106 said:

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12thMan9 said:

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There is no rule against what happened.

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Rule 5.06(a)(1):
If in the judgment of an umpire, a runner is pushed or forced off a base by a fielder, intentionally or unintentionally, at which the runner would have otherwise been called safe, the umpire has the authority and discretion under the circumstances to return the runner to the base he was forced off following the conclusion of the play.

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Keep reading, same book. 9.02.

BTW, we are not complaining if we do that to lsu. :-)

Melton could have been a master at this!

12thMan9 said:

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HoustonAg2106 said:

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12thMan9 said:

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There is no rule against what happened.

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Rule 5.06(a)(1):
If in the judgment of an umpire, a runner is pushed or forced off a base by a fielder, intentionally or unintentionally, at which the runner would have otherwise been called safe, the umpire has the authority and discretion under the circumstances to return the runner to the base he was forced off following the conclusion of the play.

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Keep reading, same book. 9.02.

BTW, we are not complaining if we do that to lsu. :-)

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Not complaining, but we would certainly be able to admit that was called wrong (like most LSU fans were saying yesterday)

And 9.02 does not say anything that proves the umpire was correct, just that his incorrect call was final.

9.02 (a) Any umpire's decision which involves judgment, such as, but not limited to, whether a batted ball is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a runner is safe or out, is final

75AG said:

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HoustonAg2106 said:

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12thMan9 said:

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There is no rule against what happened.

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Rule 5.06(a)(1):
If in the judgment of an umpire, a runner is pushed or forced off a base by a fielder, intentionally or unintentionally, at which the runner would have otherwise been called safe, the umpire has the authority and discretion under the circumstances to return the runner to the base he was forced off following the conclusion of the play.

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Rule 5.06(a)(2)
No one under age 30 shall umpire in the nation's most elite college baseball conference. And furthermore, he (or she) shall not be a dewsh and must know the freaking rules.

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I don't think that is asking for too much.

You know, it's one thing if the runner is reaching for the bag at the same time the fielder trying to tag his hand and the collision between hand and glove forces the players hand off/away from the bag.

In this situation, Tucker is lying on the ground with his hand already at rest on the bag, and the umpire signals SAFE.

After which, the fielder swipes his hand off the bag with his glove, and the umpire signals that he came off the bag and he's ruled out.

Given that you've already called him safe, and you clearly saw the fielder knock his hand off the bag, there's no way you're thinking Tucker pulled his hand back off the bag OF HIS OWN ACCORD and then got legally tagged out.

It's just impossible to make that argument.

That's one of the worst calls I've seen in my life. And one of the few times that I've got genuinely furious just sitting in my living room watching a game

In real time I could give the umpire the benefit of the doubt that it all happened so quickly and all he noticed was the hand off the bag and being tagged but after a second or two to digest it all he should have put his pride aside and say actually he was pushed off the bag and call him safe. Umpires never put their pride aside which is why replay is supposed to fix calls like that

The super bad thing about replay is that they can't always look at the stuff that is most obvious and is often most critical. I remember this coming up in the postseason last year regarding a crucial play. Honestly don't remember the full details at the moment but I think it was it was a fair or foul call -- but I do remember being angry in regards to the current incarnation of replay. How stupid is it that we can review frame by frame whether a runner pops off a base with the tag applied but while there are many aspects that we simply cannot correct via replay no matter no obvious.

I generally hate replay for baseball so I admit personal bias, but honestly more than I hate replay I hate that we currently use it for neighborhood plays but preclude these so-called umpire judgment calls. It makes zero logical sense and in my opinion is pretty much backwards.

Due to the prevalence of cameras I think replay is (unfortunately) here to stay. But if that is true it needs to be re-worked completely.
- Centralized reviews only so umps never have to leave the field
- 30s maximum time limit or the call on the field stands
- End the verbal explanation. Just signal safe or out and move on.
- Correct the reviewable calls to include most umpire judgments.

HoustonAg2106 said:

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In real time I could give the umpire the benefit of the doubt that it all happened so quickly and all he noticed was the hand off the bag and being tagged but after a second or two to digest it all he should have put his pride aside and say actually he was pushed off the bag and call him safe. Umpires never put their pride aside which is why replay is supposed to fix calls like that

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I wouldn't say never but it's rare for sure. I remember a call in the CWS where they screwed up and called an obvious homerun a ground rule double. They conferenced up to discuss and forgot they were mic'd up for the series. The guy that made the call said he thought he missed it and then the crew chief told him he couldn't overturn it. The context was easy to read. It wasn't he wasn't allowed by rule, it was they weren't going to acknowledge they screwed up.

12thMan9 said:

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There is no rule against what happened.

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If there is no rule against it.

Intentionally walk every batter.

Throw to first, have the first baseman push the runner off. OUT.

Get a no hitter, throw no pitches. What could possibly go wrong?

The pitcher's BB/K ratio would suck, but the 0.0 ERA would be awesome.

EMY92 said:

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12thMan9 said:

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There is no rule against what happened.

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If there is no rule against it.

Intentionally walk every batter.

Throw to first, have the first baseman push the runner off. OUT.

Get a no hitter, throw no pitches. What could possibly go wrong?

The pitcher's BB/K ratio would suck, but the 0.0 ERA would be awesome.

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Boy, this board needs a baseball IQ test.

12thMan9 said:

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EMY92 said:

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12thMan9 said:

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There is no rule against what happened.

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If there is no rule against it.

Intentionally walk every batter.

Throw to first, have the first baseman push the runner off. OUT.

Get a no hitter, throw no pitches. What could possibly go wrong?

The pitcher's BB/K ratio would suck, but the 0.0 ERA would be awesome.

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Boy, this board needs a baseball IQ test.

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For which you would evidently fail given you think the rules allow for the play White made and the umpire was in your eyes justified in this call. You ignore the rule that addresses the situation and point to the rule that just says an umpires judgement call ruling is final? That doesn't mean the umpire is always correct in his judgement calls. Maybe your point was that 9.02 makes this play not reviewable, but even that I have to question as I believe fair/foul is reviewable in certain instances (most notably on home runs, but I believe on any balls hit into the outfield fair/foul is reviewable).

Goose06 said:

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12thMan9 said:

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EMY92 said:

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12thMan9 said:

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There is no rule against what happened.

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If there is no rule against it.

Intentionally walk every batter.

Throw to first, have the first baseman push the runner off. OUT.

Get a no hitter, throw no pitches. What could possibly go wrong?

The pitcher's BB/K ratio would suck, but the 0.0 ERA would be awesome.

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Boy, this board needs a baseball IQ test.

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For which you would evidently fail given you think the rules allow for the play White made and the umpire was in your eyes justified in this call. You ignore the rule that addresses the situation and point to the rule that just says an umpires judgement call ruling is final? That doesn't mean the umpire is always correct in his judgement calls. Maybe your point was that 9.02 makes this play not reviewable, but even that I have to question as I believe fair/foul is reviewable in certain instances (most notably on home runs, but I believe on any balls hit into the outfield fair/foul is reviewable).

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Maybe this will help your ignorance.

Watch the entire sequence at full speed again & then apply what is stated here in regards to momentum from the play.
Contacting runners coming into question this postseason
By Matt Snyder
Oct 12, 2014

5 min read
Among all the excitement we've had so far this postseason, there have been three instances where a discussion about a defender possibly pushing a runner has come up.

First, there was Jonathan Schoop in Detroit:


Next, there was Jonathan Schoop, again, but this time in Baltimore:


And then, there was Madison Bumgarner:


The initial instinct for most baseball fans is to cry foul on these. It just feels wrong to say a defensive player can forcibly either prevent a player from staying on a base or getting to a base. Take note of the reaction of Cardinals manager Mike Matheny on the latter play. For many, it just seems like something that shouldn't be allowed.

In looking through the official MLB rulebook (three times, just to be sure), here are the rules that closest apply to any of the above scenarios:

OBSTRUCTION is the act of a fielder who, while not in possession of the ball and not in the act of fielding the ball, impedes the progress of any runner.

Rule 2.00 (Obstruction) Comment: If a fielder is about to receive a thrown ball and if the ball is in flight directly toward and near enough to the fielder so he must occupy his position to receive the ball he may be considered "in the act of fielding a ball." It is entirely up to the judgment of the umpire as to whether a fielder is in the act of fielding a ball. After a fielder has made an attempt to field a ball and missed, he can no longer be in the "act of fielding" the ball. For example: an infielder dives at a ground ball and the ball passes him and he continues to lie on the ground and delays the progress of the runner, he very likely has obstructed the runner.

OVERSLIDE (or OVERSLIDING) is the act of an offensive player when his slide to a base, other than when advancing from home to first base, is with such momentum that he loses contact with the base.

7.08: Any runner is out when
(c) He is tagged, when the ball is alive, while off his base. EXCEPTION: A batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base;
APPROVED RULING: (1) If the impact of a runner breaks a base loose from its position, no play can be made on that runner at that base if he had reached the base safely.
APPROVED RULING: (2) If a base is dislodged from its position during a play, any following runner on the same play shall be considered as touching or occupying the base if, in the umpire's judgment, he touches or occupies the point marked by the dislodged bag.

Definitely feel free to peruse the rulebook on your own, but this is as close as it gets to mentioning anything resembling the above plays. It seems to me that under the "act of fielding the ball" clause, every single play above is legal. In all three cases, the defensive player was in the act of fielding a ball.

Of course, I couldn't help but think about extreme examples. Many would like to mention Kent Hrbek vs. Ron Gant, so I'll throw it in here:


Splashed all over the Internet are cases being made that Hrbek "cheated" and that this was one of the worst calls in baseball history. Tim McCarver immediately said on the broadcast that it was a bad call and Jack Buck agreed with him.

But go back to the actual rules, and, again, there is absolutely nothing in there that says a defender can't do this.

I perused some umpires forums online and found several cases (here, here and here) where plays like this were discussed. Among the responses:

- "No rule says it has to be the runner's momentum to take him off the base. I am going with no out and possibly a warning to (defender) for unsportsmanlike conduct. I will call "Time" as soon as he pushes him. Or, it may be (obstruction) if he doesn't have the ball. Either way, he isn't getting an out unless someone can prove otherwise to me."

- "Funny enough, there is NO RULE that says a fielder can't push a runner off base. However, it is enforced that way. An out cannot be obtained if the runner was forced off a base, however you do see instances where a "firm tag" pushes a runner off base and the runner's momentum is what causes him to come off the base- which is a legal out."

- "Runner is safe. I don't think the rules specifically address this point but obviously the fielder can't push a runner off a base."

So it would appear these high school umpires are just deciding to alter the rules, right? How can you just arbitrarily decide that there isn't a rule but you still call it like there is? Because it seems like it's not fair? One person even said something along the lines of "there doesn't have to be a rule for everything." So how do they decide? Based upon personal preference?

I can't believe that there is no discussion of this in the rulebook. Picture the most extreme example possible: A third baseman sees the tying run on third base in the ninth inning. He takes a throw from the pitcher and charges full-steam into the runner, going full-on Roman Reigns spear to knock him off the base. He then tags the runner. That has to be illegal and I'm certain the umpires not only wouldn't call the runner out, but they'd also eject the third baseman

And yet, there is nothing in the rules that says this is illegal. This astounds me.


I don't believe that any of the three above plays from this postseason warranted safe calls or should be cause to change the rules and make them illegal. They weren't egregious. I do think, however, that there needs to be some discussion in the rulebook moving forward, so the umpires aren't just making stuff up and the players know the expectations of what is and is not allowed. Otherwise, the path has been cleared for possible disaster down the road in the form of an umpire unilaterally deciding to call something that isn't a rule. In order to be averted, all it will take is one simple sentence added to the rules.

Rule 5.06(a)(1):
If in the judgment of an umpire, a runner is pushed or forced off a base by a fielder, intentionally or unintentionally, at which the runner would have otherwise been called safe, the umpire has the authority and discretion under the circumstances to return the runner to the base he was forced off following the conclusion of the play

Please tell me how you can say there is no rule or discussion addressing that play after reading this. Read it slowly if you have to

And stop posting articles and messages on umpire forums, those are all opinions from other people. Stick to the facts

By the rules, the umpire has the discretion to judge that a runner was pushed off a bag (intentionally or unintentionally) and call him safe. The umpire on Sunday was wrong in his judgment of whether or not to exercise that discretion that is given to him by rule

Pass interference in football is a judgment call, but that doesn't automatically make the refs correct in their judgment

I don't know which of that is you talking and which is random crap you are quoting or not quoting but plagiarizing, but nothing in there is a convincing argument that Tucker should have been called out. And to say there is not a rule that covers this is also ignorant (as HoustonAg2106 pointed out just above me).