Basketball stats discussion

2,587 Views | 54 Replies | Last: 20 days ago by bobinator
JJxvi
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I wrote this on another board, but thought I may as well post it here also, even if kind of rehashes a lot of what we all talk about. But in particular it kind of discusses why shooting percentage does not tell the whole story, and the way a lot of casual or old school fans, the way we've been taught to view those shooting percentage sometimes arent helpful to see what's really happening in a basketball game.

The basic fundamental building block of a basketball game is a possession. One team wants to score points, the other team wants to get the ball back for their own possession without allowing them to score any points. Therefore the basic stat of basketball is actually something that isn't even in the box score or tracked at all. Points per possession (or points allowed per possession). In general, most people end up converting this to Points per 100 possessions so its a nice large useful number.

What almost everybody traditionally looked at to evaluate how teams are doing in a particular game is the shooting percentages, field goal percentage, three point percentage, even free throw percentage. People do look at rebounding margin and turnover totals to kind of adjust in their mind why the shooting percentages might not have added up to the final score. The reason shooting percentages themselves arent that good, is because shots aren't really the basic factor like people think. You not only can have a possession where you take different types of shots (free throws, three pointers, jump shots, dunks, layups, whatever), but also you can have a possession where you dont take a shot at all, or possessions where you take multiple shots.

A&M is a terrible shooting team. We shot 38% last night, and 17% I think on three pointers. Our best offensive player missed almost every three he took. However, when we had the ball and took a shot, this is what happened. 38% of the time, we made it and got at least two points. Out of 38 misses, we rebounded the ball again 21 times (55% offensive rebound rate). So even though we suck at shooting, we are absolutely awesome at getting the ball back and shooting it again, often times under the goal with a higher percentage shot than the first one we took. So now 38% of the time we make the first shot, 55% of the time we get it back anyway, and just considering the first order of events in the cascade, now we shoot a second shot that we have a 38% chance to make. Our expected points from that possession is 1.01 points assuming all shots were 2 pointers. 1 point is the equivalent of 50% field goal percentage when you're not trying to get rebounds. So even though we absolutely suck ass at shooting, the points we are scoring per possession are the equivalent of a team that is shooting better than 50% but isnt getting the rebounds.

The other thing besides rebounding that is underrated is getting to the foul line. A&M is average to bad at shooting free throws, however, free throw percentage is almost meaningless compared to the raw number of free throw attempts you get. Even if you are a terrible 50% free throw shooter, because generally you get two shots, you will average one point per trip to the line for two shots, which is again the equivalent of taking a two pointer and making it at a 50% percentage, which is good. And if its a player who is actually 70-80% free throw shooter? That player will average like 1.5 expected points in that possession, which is the equivalent of having a player better than Seth Curry that shoots a 50% percentage on three pointers take a shot on a possession.

Getting fouled is an amazing result in a possession, as getting to take multiple free throws are among the highest average expected points you can gain in a single possession, plus you start the process of getting bonus free throws later for non-shooting fouls and opposing players start having to be taken out of the game. Getting offensive rebounds are also amazing, because they allow you to put up multiple shots and and have multiple opportunities to get fouled and go to the line. On the other side, turnovers are absolutely the worst thing than can happen (or best if you are on defense), because when you had the ball just before the turnover, you squandered an opportunity to put up a shot that could go in or to get fouled. A turnover is a guaranteed possession where you score zero points.
bobinator
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*nods approvingly but whispers into the earpiece you're wearing*
"Points per possession actually is on the box score these days"
JJxvi
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Is it? Which ones?
bobinator
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It's on the official box scores on statbroadcast.
Detmersdislocatedshoulder
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in a nutshell bad shooting teams can make up for bad shooting if they shoot many more shots than the opposition.
bobinator
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That's not really the point though, you're right.

I wonder if Buzz has decided that the randomization of shooting just is what it is, and he's decided to focus on offensive rebounding and drawing fouls because it's easier to teach or something.

Not saying I agree with that, but it just sure seems like we consider developing actual offensive skills an afterthought to offensive rebounding.
JJxvi
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In a nutshell, being good at shooting field goals is only ONE of the ways a team can score a high number of points per trip down the floor, but it is not THE way.
JJxvi
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These things all work together in the opposite way for defense too.

It doesn't matter as much if the other team has Steph Curry taking three pointers for them. If you turn them over at a good clip so he takes less shots, if you rebound all the misses, if you dont foul him or his teammates, then even Steph Curry may not carry that team to a high enough points per possession to beat you.
Complete Idiot
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Since it was mentioned, I actually would like to see the real numbers of our shooting percentage on FIRST shot taken in a possession versus our shooting percentage on a 2nd/3rd/etc shot taken in a possession after an offensive rebound.
JJxvi
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Here are our events for possessions continuing after an offensive rebound from the box score linked. Its gonna take some thought about how to count it. If theres a deadball and a reset do you want to count that as a first shot or as coming off an offensive rebound?

Deadball. Eventually 1-2 free throws.

Foul. Turnover.

Missed Layup.

Foul. 1-2 FT

Missed Layup (Blocked), Offensive Rebound, Made layup.

Turnover

Foul 1-2 FT

Missed Layup, Offensive Rebound, Made Layup

Foul 2-2 FT

Missed Layup

Made Layup

Made Layup

Foul. Deadball. Made Layup

Foul 2-2 FT

Deadball. Missed Layup. Offensive Rebound. Made Layup

Missed Three Pointer. Offensive Rebound. Missed Layup
bobinator
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BTW our block stats also juice our offensive rebounding percentage. This is also something I wish someone would ask about, but I'm also almost positive I know the answer. We have to be coached not to worry about blocks because of the high probability of getting fouled combined with getting the ball back most of the time anyway. The signal seems way too strong for it to just be an accident.

We're 360th in block percentage this year, under Buzz we've been #357, #330, #341, #335, #346

Last night we got blocked six times but we got four of them back. Blocks out of bounds go to team offensive rebounds and then obviously recovered blocks go down as regular offensive rebounds.
JJxvi
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We went to the line for a shooting foul 5 times after offensive rebounds, which is the best possible result.

It looks like considering any shot after any offensive rebound we went 7/15 (0.467) and 0-1 (0.000) from three.

That means on true first shot of possession field goals we were 14-41 (0.341) and 4-23 (0.174)
Method Man
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While our research team is at work, can someone correlate shooting % with the first two FTs shot?
Complete Idiot
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bobinator said:

BTW our block stats also juice our offensive rebounding percentage. This is also something I wish someone would ask about, but I'm also almost positive I know the answer. We have to be coached not to worry about blocks because of the high probability of getting fouled combined with getting the ball back most of the time anyway. The signal seems way too strong for it to just be an accident.

We're 360th in block percentage this year, under Buzz we've been #357, #330, #341, #335, #346

Last night we got blocked six times but we got four of them back. Blocks out of bounds go to team offensive rebounds and then obviously recovered blocks go down as regular offensive rebounds.
I did not realize that. You violate the shot clock if you don't hit the rim, but a shot that is blocked - never hitting the rim - can still lead to an offensive board? I also wouldn't think an airball would have an offensive board stat possibility, maybe an assist but not an offensive board.
bobinator
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My vibes-based research is that everyone on our team misses their first free throw of the game 79.95% of the time.

When that first free throw comes after a long delay like a media timeout, that percentage goes up to 99.9999%
bobinator
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Anything that goes into the book as an official shot has to also go in as an official rebound (if it doesn't go in.) Like an airballed free throw would go in as a team defensive rebound.

So yeah, an airballed shot has to be rebounded by someone, provided the official scorekeeper ruled it a shot in the first place.

I'm less sure on this one, but I think an airballed three at the shot clock wouldn't go down as a shot attempt, it would go down as a turnover for the shot clock violation if the refs stop play for it.
fatdad84ag
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bobinator said:

Anything that goes into the book as an official shot has to also go in as an official rebound (if it doesn't go in.) Like an airballed free throw would go in as a team defensive rebound.

So yeah, an airballed shot has to be rebounded by someone, provided the official scorekeeper ruled it a shot in the first place.

I'm less sure on this one, but I think an airballed three at the shot clock wouldn't go down as a shot attempt, it would go down as a turnover for the shot clock violation if the refs stop play for it.
So if play is not stopped, would we assume they would give a defensive board then???
bobinator
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That's my understanding yes. A logical way to think through these situations is that you basically need to be able to recreate the game from the box score and the play by play, so every possession has to end somehow. That's with either a made basket, a turnover, or a defensive rebound.

There's some debate over whether offensive rebounds should count as a new possession but most people count that as a continued possession because considering it a new possession would create some weird stuff in the stats.
Complete Idiot
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bobinator said:

My vibes-based research is that everyone on our team misses their first free throw of the game 79.95% of the time.

When that first free throw comes after a long delay like a media timeout, that percentage goes up to 99.9999%
We came out ahead in single bonus situations last night, I believe - that was nice.

Regarding the block/airball/offensive board stat I have to propose renaming the shot clock to "rim contact clock".

Just as a stickler on wording (probably a nice way to state whatever afflicts me), I can't handle an airball or block leading to a rebound stat while not resetting the "shot" clock. You could airball 3 shots, get blocked 2 shots, get 5 offensive rebounds and a shot clock violation all in one possession.
JJxvi
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While we're renaming the clocks, "game clock" should be "half clock"
Complete Idiot
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JJxvi said:

While we're renaming the clocks, "game clock" should be "half clock"
wacarnolds
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What the OP is describing are the The Four Factors of basketball, introduced by Dean Oliver in his seminal 2004 work "Basketball On Paper". These Four Factors are the building blocks of the efficiency rating systems used by most all analytics services and betting sportbooks.
Complete Idiot
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How about "Earned throw" or "Punishment throw" instead of "free throw".

It's not like it's a complete gift. We drew a foul or the other team cheated.
JJxvi
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How is a jump ball scored? As a turnover and a steal only of possession changes?
bobinator
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Yeah. Which actually makes it annoying to track on the statbroadcast play-by-plays, although some versions of pxp does have them tracked.
JJxvi
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Amazing. Thanks!
wacarnolds
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Quote:

The reason shooting percentages themselves arent that good

Other factors like OR, FT rate are important, but don't get it twisted... shooting percentages (primarily offensive eFG% and to a lesser extent defensive 2FG%) are still extremely important, both in a vacuum and relative to the other factors mentioned
JJxvi
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bobinator said:

Yeah. Which actually makes it annoying to track on the statbroadcast play-by-plays, although some versions of pxp does have them tracked.


Does the NBA also score them that way after an actual jump ball?

bobinator
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No clue on that
JJxvi
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I meant that looking at shooting percentage is not that good of an analogue as a single stat for the final score or overall performance and yet many do use it as such.
wacarnolds
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JJxvi said:

I meant that looking at shooting percentage is not that good of an analogue as a single stat for the final score or overall performance and yet many do use it as such.

I think FG% is still one of the more important "raw" factors in basketball, even if it is clearly inferior to eFG% and TS%

Bad shooting can be overcome, but it's still a hole you have to dig yourself out of
JJxvi
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I think the mistake is having a view that basketball is primarily a game made of "shots" instead of a game made of "possessions" and field goal and effective field goal percentages are really only about shots.

I think everyone would agree that the shots are still a huge factor within possessions.
bobinator
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I think for me the distinction is that people act like shot making is a skill but getting rebounds is just pure effort.

Like we're only #1 in the country out of 362 teams two years running because we just want it more than everyone else does.

I think a good offseason thread or maybe next week during the bye is breaking down what everyone thinks of Buzz in different areas of the game, but this is one that our staff is absolutely the best in the game.
PJYoung
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wacarnolds said:

What the OP is describing are the The Four Factors of basketball, introduced by Dean Oliver in his seminal 2004 work "Basketball On Paper". These Four Factors are the building blocks of the efficiency rating systems used by most all analytics services and betting sportbooks.
LOL it's great that something I thought of as a fairly recent development is over 20 years old.
wacarnolds
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My concern with championing an approach that centers the skill of OReb (caveat - I still have zero clue what Buzz would prefer in an ideal situation) is it feels a bit like we're a football team that utilizes the triple option or some other gadget offense. It can be really good at achieving certain outcomes (even some really important outcomes that are important in winning), but if it lowers your ceiling and is not a viable pathway for winning at the highest levels, I don't know how much praise to heap upon the staff for being really good at it
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