The case for Taylor to shoot more 3s

3,075 Views | 36 Replies | Last: 17 days ago by GrayMatter
bobinator
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AG
Had a little bit of time and decided to do some quick research here.

Our shooting percentage as a team inside the arc is not good at 48% (#255 in the country). Meaning that our expected shot value of a 2 pt shot is slightly less than 1 point at .96 points.

Now, that percentage goes up if one of our bigs takes the shot. Coleman, Payne, Garcia and Washington are a combined 57.5% from two. Meaning a two point shot by one of them has an expected value of 1.15 points.

But we're an equal opportunity bad shooting team. We're also terrible from outside the arc, where we shoot a combined 30% (#283). As a team our expected shot value of a three point shot is .9 points.

But Wade Taylor shoots better than almost everyone else at 35.4%, making the expected value of a three point shot by Taylor 1.06 points. But crucially, digging through the box scores, we also rebound Taylor's misses at a high rate (41.1%, which is in line with the percentage at which we rebound all shots 43.3%).

When Taylor shoots a 3, there's a 62% chance he's either going to make it, or that we're going to get the ball back. And if we do get it back, it's likely that it's one of our bigs that gets it with a chance to score, which our highest value shot.

Crucially, if you were going to go (even more?) all in on this idea, Taylor needs to dial back how often he shoots it in transition with nobody under the basket. It isn't all that often, but it's at least once a game or so. The value of a Taylor three goes down dramatically if we have no chance of rebounding it.

But what say y'all? There's a lot of talk of "hero ball" from Wade during games, but I think it's a fairly straightforward case that, provided we have rebounders under the basket, Wade should fire away when we're on offense.
wurmhole
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AG
It's awesome when he makes a 28 footer. I like basketball plays that make me cheer. I'm ok with watching four of those brick (considering our rebounding) if I can see two go in.
94chem
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Wade is 6'0" tall. He never passes up an open look. Are there shots he isn't taking already?
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
BQ_90
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AG
i'm just not a fan when he chunks one up and he's the only guy past the mid court line
bobinator
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AG
I would say it's less about him taking them when they're even remotely open and more us intentionally trying to get him open off the ball more. He's nowhere close to the national leaders in three point attempt rate.

Of course this would partially involve Manny actually passing the ball.

In reality, I don't really think we should just have him chuck it up there 15 times a game or anything, it was more just running the numbers on what the actual value of his shots is and whether he really does shoot it too much (or too little.)

Related, our least valuable shot is any shot Manny takes. Those numbers are brutal.
TjgtAg08
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What are your thoughts on the Manny clear-out iso play? I think we ran it (either intentionally or not intentionally) a couple times against either Tech or Wake.

Feels like if we are going to let Manny be Manny and just swallow the ball, clearing out one side of the floor and letting him back down someone (matchup dependent, of course) and get a shot at the rim. I feel like he's at least in a little more control in that situation.
AggByMarriage
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I don't think Wade asks for permission.

ABM
bobinator
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AG
If Manny could pass you'd be able to test it and rely on it more, because he could try driving it and if it wasn't there he could kick it out. But instead it's basically a kamikaze play with no outlets and you have no idea if it's going to work.

Now that said a few times a year he finds it and I think you can let him attack a few times like the other day.

But his overall numbers are just brutal. He shoots 35% from 2 and 20% from 3, almost impossibly bad. Though his career 3pt number is quite a bit higher so he's probably due to hit a couple soon.
nelsonagholor
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AG
I think this is the biggest problem with the offense rather than Wade not getting enough shots. Jace and Solo were both hitting open threes against tech but we just are shooting too many contested shots, largely because whoevers handling the ball (especially Manny) doesn't normally pass once they have it inside the arc. If we can get drive and kicks instead of those awful fadeaways Manny was taking against tech i think it would be huge for the offense
bobinator
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Maybe it's blind optimism but I'm sort of choosing to believe that our offense is just behind our defense and it's going to click just a little better soon. I don't think we're gonna be Alabama all of a sudden but whether it's Phelps finishing at the rim a little better and/or distributing it a little more or Payne becoming a little better at getting good position, I think we're going to eventually find some new things that work.

Phelps being able to get to the rim but not finish is somehow worse than Boots not being able to get to the rim but just flinging shots up there even though the end result is about the same.
TheDecadeSapling
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Manny is a big liability. He's not productive enough to justify taking the wild shots he does. Any coach other than Buzz would bench him and chew him out
nelsonagholor
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I dont know how close the offense will end up getting to the defense, but i'm more optimistic too. It's not only phelps whos struggled finishing, payne and manny have too imo. I think payne has shown though that he's athletic enough to get good looks at the rim against most bigs if he can get position, so hopefully we'll be able to run the offense through him at times. What would help the offense the most though is simply to make more layups and free throws that we've struggled with recently
TjgtAg08
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TheDecadeSapling said:

Manny is a big liability. He's not productive enough to justify taking the wild shots he does. Any coach other than Buzz would bench him and chew him out

I think that kind of happened against either Wake or Tech. He played in the first half and then sat the entire second half.

Whats crazy is, in the last 6 games he's only averaging like 14 minutes per game, which feels like almost nothing in comparison to how much we thought he might play coming into the season. BUT, in those 14 minutes he's taking A LOT of shots, and not making as many of them as we need.
bobinator
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I don't think some people understand how much Manny kills our entire offense. He's the only player on the team (that's played any meaningful minutes) with a negative Box Plus/Minus on Torvik.
texAZtea
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AG

I don't have much to add except I took your numbers and got to the summary statistic you were working towards.

Total expected value for when Wade shoots a 3 is 1.53 points when you factor in the likelihood of an offensive rebound and one of our bigs making the subsequent shot.

You could probably get a better estimate if you could look at just their percentage after a rebound vs overall.

bobinator
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Yeah there's some pieces missing to come up with a true value, but you're right, what I was getting at is that I'm almost certain our highest value shot on the court is Taylor shooting a 3, especially when we're set up under the basket.

What makes it tricky though is the true highest value shot are free throws, which touches on that other thread on Buzz's approach to the game. We will take a lot of bad offensive shots with the goal of getting into the bonus and shooting a bunch of free throws because the expected value of even a 60 percent free throw shooter is 1.2 points per trip to the line (except in the one-and-one.)
AggieMD95
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How was obaseki so good last half last yr and struggling so bad now ? I expected improvement yr over yr
bobinator
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I think that's a complicated question. I'm not sure Manny is actually playing much worse (except his threes aren't falling so far) as much as the makeup of the team around him is much different.
El Mero Mero 14
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Phelps has been absolutely terrible at the rim for the last past 7 games or so, like almost comically not being able to get stuff to drop. I think just with the nature of basketball that he gets a few more of those to roll in. I an anticipate our offense finding a bit of a stride soon.
El Mero Mero 14
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AggieMD95 said:

How was obaseki so good last half last yr and struggling so bad now ? I expected improvement yr over yr
Towards the end of the year he got insanely hot. I think over like an 8 game stretch he shot like 60% from 3. That's really not his game. I think you can expect him to be better, but to be as good as he was down the stretch last year is almost impossible.
Heineken-Ashi
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Manny will blossom mid to late season. It's the tried and true formula now. The real question mark is when is Phelps going to stop turning it over at 3+ per game, not to mention the turnovers from easily blocked shots and shots that have no chance?
Method Man
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Just think if we were like other good teams and had 2-3 Wade Taylors?
bobinator
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Phelps and Manny (and Wade) have all been fairly bad at "close twos" per Torvik, I assume he's pulling that from the layups in the play by play, but where Manny and Phelps are truly bad is two point jump shots. Phelps is 2/22 (9%) and Manny is 7/29 (24%.) They shouldn't be shooting those ever.

Phelps' numbers really aren't as bad as it feels like they should be. He's at 50% on close twos which is better than the other two who are at 46%.
El Mero Mero 14
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bobinator said:

Phelps and Manny (and Wade) have all been fairly bad at "close twos" per Torvik, I assume he's pulling that from the layups in the play by play, but where Manny and Phelps are truly bad is two point jump shots. Phelps is 2/22 (9%) and Manny is 7/29 (24%.) They shouldn't be shooting those ever.

Phelps' numbers really aren't as bad as it feels like they should be. He's at 50% on close twos which is better than the other two who are at 46%.

We're due for positive regression in that area for sure.
texAZtea
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In the same line of reasoning, if we as a team attempt a 2 point shot, you said the expected value of the first shot is .96 points.

But, if you factor in the probability of an offensive rebound, and then the likelihood that one of our bigs makes the follow up shot, that adds another .25 points of expected value (52% chance the first shot misses, ~43% chance we rebound it, and ~57% chance we make the follow up shot).

So the expected value of any 2 point attempt with the possibility of a follow up shot is 1.2 points.

That supports your point that our best bet is to have Wade shoot a 3 and hope we get an offensive rebound (1.6 points)
bobinator
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Yeah, and the actual X's and O's of getting a shot up are more complicated than what we're talking here, but the main reason I looked up the info is in the game threads there's always a lot of talk about Wade's threes but I think it's misplaced (except for the transition ones where nobody is under the basket.) Wade should just let it fly.
texAZtea
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For sure. It would be insane to tell the team to get the ball to Wade every time and essentially run the same play. You have to mix it up so you're not predictable.

I don't know much about basketball, I've just had to take a lot of statistics recenty so your post is scratching a part of my brain that I've been training. I've been toying with learning about sports analytics so I could help my kid's little league coaches. They're less likely to be able to do the analytics and I'm not a tactitian.But I also don't want to be "that dad".
halfastros81
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Seems like you made the case for the bigs to take more shots to me.
bobinator
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If they can get them, then yeah, thats really our plan A. If we can that Phelps to Payne lob working a bit like we saw yesterday that's a game changer.

This was more talking about those times when we're having a hard time getting anything going.
zgolfz85
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I like the kid's confidence, but wish he'd be smarter about when to take 3s. Situationally, he's put us in some really bad spots and even lost games over his Aggie career by throwing up 3s in critical junctions of the game, especially when he does it when we have no rebounders around the hoop. Now, if it's end of season Wade when he's lights out, go for it…just be more measured when your shots aren't falling at a high clip
bobinator
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Guessing he's won us a lot more games then he's cost us with his shooting
halfastros81
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Agree. Inside out is the best formula . I know we do this some but maybe set up Wade and maybe Wilcher for the kick out three if the paint is well covered more frequently. Would definitely work better than Manny isolating , driving, and taking some spastic shot… unless of course he makes it

Great work on the stat breakdown!

I recall last year's Virginia game where they packed the defense in the paint and the only approach was to try to shoot threes to spread them out… shooting the 3's at 17% just didn't get it done.
bobinator
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Inside-out is what we'd like to do, we just haven't had the post players to do it since we lost Marble. Coleman, Garcia and Solo aren't shot creators. Coleman can be sometimes in certain matchups, but for the most part they aren't going to be able to set themselves up for a shot, their points usually come off of rebounds, transition, or quick passes underneath the basket when someone else drives the ball. That's why their shot percentages are so high but it's not like we can just dump it down to Garcia and have him go to work on the block.

Payne is a different kind of dude though. Raw, still needs to keep developing his footwork, but his natural athleticism makes up for a lot of that. When he can catch lobs, work around the paint, etc. like we saw on Saturday, it really opens things up.

This someone else said this too, but Phelps passing like he did Saturday (even with his turnovers being high) and Payne staying active on both ends like he was is the difference between us being good and us being potentially very good.
LuoJi
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Awesome OP analysis
AggByMarriage
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bobinator said:

Inside-out is what we'd like to do, we just haven't had the post players to do it since we lost Marble. Coleman, Garcia and Solo aren't shot creators. Coleman can be sometimes in certain matchups, but for the most part they aren't going to be able to set themselves up for a shot, their points usually come off of rebounds, transition, or quick passes underneath the basket when someone else drives the ball. That's why their shot percentages are so high but it's not like we can just dump it down to Garcia and have him go to work on the block.

Payne is a different kind of dude though. Raw, still needs to keep developing his footwork, but his natural athleticism makes up for a lot of that. When he can catch lobs, work around the paint, etc. like we saw on Saturday, it really opens things up.

This someone else said this too, but Phelps passing like he did Saturday (even with his turnovers being high) and Payne staying active on both ends like he was is the difference between us being good and us being potentially very good.


9 assists between Taylor and Phelps in the Purdue game. Turnovers still high, but I think that is more a product of Aggies' style of play and not skill.

Payne's dominance in the paint will change a lot of opponents' game plans.

I like "pretty" basketball; lots of assists, well executed set plays. But gritty trumps pretty. And gritty seems to be working just fine for the team.
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