AggieTFA06 said:

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I'm not a fan of sumlin, but if he leaves, he has made us better than he found us.

If Kennedy left, he has made us worse than he found us.

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I'm not sure that either of those is true unless we're giving Sumlin credit for helping raise money to renovate Kyle Field or something.

As far as the actual on-field program, I'm not sure we'd be any better off heading into next season than we were heading into Sumlin's first season.

It's kind of interesting because in both cases the program wasn't exactly what anyone thought it was. It turned out the football team had two all-time greats on it that nobody had really heard of yet, and the basketball program was in much worse shape than anyone really knew at the time. Other problem is that it only takes one or two injuries to derail a basketball season and I think everyone on the team got hurt Kennedy's first year.

I don't think there is any doubt at all that our basketball program now is better than it was when Kennedy took over. The talent is better, the academic situation is better and the recruiting is better. Again, not against the perception at the time, but what we now know was the reality six years later.

I do think Sumlin's program is better than it was when he arrived, but a lot of that has to do with things that he didn't personally decide. New conference, facilities, etc. But even still, there's little doubt the overall roster is better than it was in 2012. Still, he inherited a program with two all-time greats on the roster.

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I don't think there is any doubt at all that our basketball program now is better than it was when Kennedy took over. The talent is better, the academic situation is better and the recruiting is better. Again, not against the perception at the time, but what we now know was the reality six years later.

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We are all excited about the talent level, but to say the program is better is just hope. BK has to do it on the court and win in the tournament ala BCG and Turgeon. The reality is that BCG and Turgeon got their teams to the tournament consistently.

There's a difference in the results being better and the program being better though.

I don't think it's even questionable that the program, overall, is better. Knowing what we know now about the APR situation and Turgeon's recruiting there at the end was just absolute garbage.

Like, if given the choice, I'd much rather take over as A&M's coach now than go back to 2011 and take over then. Wouldn't you?

I have sometimes wonder if Turgeon was primed for missing the NCAAT for at least a couple of consecutive seasons right before he left town, because there was definitely plenty of concern about the recruiting and a sense the talent level on campus was slipping. Obviously some of that concern was due to the 2010-2011 season (his last year) being clearly the weakest of his teams, a team that was generally beaten down like a rented mule whenever it faced an opponent with elite size and athletes (like Texas, Baylor, or FSU).

It is all hypothetical though, so who knows.

One note on Turgeon's recruiting, the tragic death of Tobi of course significantly affected the quality of the 2010 recruiting class. IMO, Tobi looked every bit the kind of prospect who would have been a really good 3-4 year frontcourt player for A&M.

Pumpkinhead said:

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I have sometimes wonder if Turgeon was primed for missing the NCAAT for at least a couple of consecutive seasons right before he left town, because there was definitely plenty of concern about the recruiting and a sense the talent level on campus was slipping. Obviously some of that concern was due to the 2010-2011 season (his last year) being clearly the weakest of his teams, a team that was generally beaten down like a rented mule whenever it faced an opponent with elite size and athletes (like Texas, Baylor, or FSU).

It is all hypothetical though, so who knows.

One note on Turgeon's recruiting, the tragic death of Tobi of course significantly affected the quality of the 2010 recruiting class. IMO, Tobi looked every bit the kind of prospect who would have been a really good 3-4 year frontcourt player for A&M.

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I'm not a BK basher, but I think Turgeon would have gotten that team he left behind to the NCAAs - probably not a great seed and unlikely to get out of the first weekend, but in the tourney. BK's first year was a cluster in about every way possible.

Now, Turgeon would have needed to up the ante on recruiting to keep the streak going after that.

If all the same injuries would have happened I doubt Turgeon gets that team into the NCAAs, but who knows. Hard to say how much Kennedy having to step away from the team for a significant amount of time impacted the performance.

Either way, that team was nowhere near as talented as the one we're about to have is.

bobinator said:

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There's a difference in the results being better and the program being better though.

I don't think it's even questionable that the program, overall, is better. Knowing what we know now about the APR situation and Turgeon's recruiting there at the end was just absolute garbage.

Like, if given the choice, I'd much rather take over as A&M's coach now than go back to 2011 and take over then. Wouldn't you?

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I think I would rather take over as A&M's coach now than at any other point in school history.

LawHall88 said:

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Pumpkinhead said:

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I have sometimes wonder if Turgeon was primed for missing the NCAAT for at least a couple of consecutive seasons right before he left town, because there was definitely plenty of concern about the recruiting and a sense the talent level on campus was slipping. Obviously some of that concern was due to the 2010-2011 season (his last year) being clearly the weakest of his teams, a team that was generally beaten down like a rented mule whenever it faced an opponent with elite size and athletes (like Texas, Baylor, or FSU).

It is all hypothetical though, so who knows.

One note on Turgeon's recruiting, the tragic death of Tobi of course significantly affected the quality of the 2010 recruiting class. IMO, Tobi looked every bit the kind of prospect who would have been a really good 3-4 year frontcourt player for A&M.

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I'm not a BK basher, but I think Turgeon would have gotten that team he left behind to the NCAAs - probably not a great seed and unlikely to get out of the first weekend, but in the tourney. BK's first year was a cluster in about every way possible.

Now, Turgeon would have needed to up the ante on recruiting to keep the streak going after that.

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It is so many what-ifs, hard to say. Had the same set of injuries been thrown at him, who knows.

The recruiting though for the 2010 and 2011 classes was clearly problematic. Here were the guys Turgeon himself grabbed during those last two cycles while at A&M:

Tobi Oyedeji
Keith Davis
Kourtney Roberson
Daniel Alexander
Jamal Branch
Jordan Green
Elston Turner (transfer)

And what jumps out at you is a hole beginning to form in the PF/C pipeline. Tobi's death + Keith Davis being basically trash meant Roberson was the only decent frontcourt player who had been added to the program over a two year period.

Then Kennedy shows up and his first recruiting class (the 2012 class), while he lucks out with a great local prospect Alex Caruso and he hires the dad to get J-Mychal Reese, the only big that he could manage to land was a JUCO Andrew Young. Who turned out to really stink.

So, the pipeline hole gets even bigger and for the 2010, 2011, 2012 recruiting classes...basically the ONLY quality PF/C prospect worth mentioning who entered the program during a 3 year period was Kourtney Roberson.

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What should also be mentioned is that Turgeon took the Maryland job at the end of the late signing period and left only 10 scholarship players...which indicates that Turgeon was looking to leave after the season all along.

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1 Naji Hibbert
2 Keith Davis
3 Dash Harris
4 David Loubeau
5 Jamal Branch
6 Jordan Green
7 Daniel Alexander
8 Khris Middleton
9 Elston Turner
10 Kourtney Roberson
11 Ray Turner

11 scholarship players. The same as Kennedy recruited for himself in 12/13, 13/14, 16/17.

check that... Kennedy only wanted 10 scholarship players for the 2012-13 season. Must have been looking to get out of Aggieland after one season.

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Sumlin inherited six 1st round draft picks, three 2nd-4th round picks, and two more 5th-6th rounders. If Sumlin leaves after this season, there's maybe 1-2 1st round picks and a handful of middle round picks.

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All of this talent and A&M was 7-6 the previous year in the Big 12. You either produce or don't produce. Recruiting is a great gauge, but it is just a gauge. The coach has to actually utilize the talent and turn it into wins otherwise the coach is just another John Blake. On top of that, Sumlin's basement was 8-5 in the SEC. Remember back in 2011 when everyone including many Aggies thought that we were going to get destroyed in the SEC. Now, every Aggie on texags is pissed at Sumlin. Yes, Sumlin needs to do better, but 2011, most Aggies didn't have this expectation of the program. Sumlin changed that expectation regardless if you give him credit or not.

There's no doubt that Kennedy is a good recruiter, but we only have 1 NCAA tournament trip in his tenure. Good recruiter, but bad game day coach.

Sumlin's a good recruiter, but he isn't proving to be a good coach after Sunday.

1 NCAA tournament since 2011 is nothing to celebrate.

I am guaranteeing you that Kennedy will never get to the elite 8 as head coach at TAMU, and I'm basing that off of his past record and performance.

jja79 said:

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6 - 6 is bowl eligible. Last year some 5 - 7 teams made bowls.

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Yep. But 8-4 in the SEC is roughly equivalent to a four seed in the NCAA Men's Basketball Tournament. You didn't actually read the proportions I listed, did you?

Sumlin's repeated .666 win rate only is diminished from a basketball sense by the fact the late losses tend to significantly impact seeding. In the CFB tournament only the top four teams matter rather than essentially the last 16 mattering in the NCAA tournament. From that perspective BK is better. From consistency Sumlin's top line numbers are more consistent.

bobinator said:

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I'm not even sure what people are arguing on this thread anymore...

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Yeah, it got a bit distracted.

LawHall88 said:

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AggieTFA06 said:

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I am guaranteeing you that Kennedy will never get to the elite 8 as head coach at TAMU, and I'm basing that off of his past record and performance.

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Which means he will have as many Elite 8s as Mark Turgeon, Billy Gillispie, and Shelby Metcalf combined.

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Exactly. Kennedy isn't better than those coaches.

AggieTFA06 said:

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LawHall88 said:

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AggieTFA06 said:

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I am guaranteeing you that Kennedy will never get to the elite 8 as head coach at TAMU, and I'm basing that off of his past record and performance.

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Which means he will have as many Elite 8s as Mark Turgeon, Billy Gillispie, and Shelby Metcalf combined.

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Exactly. Kennedy isn't better than those coaches.

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You can talent your way into the elite 8, lot of coaches have done that in the past. I'm far from a Kennedy supporter, just pointing it out.

Seriously? This stupid scholarship counting argument is back again? And Hop still cant even count them all up correctly too? shocked.

The ideal season from how entertaining the threads would be on here is if we get in as like a 6 seed and get to the elite eight through a bizarre series of upsets so we don't face any single digit seeds like Baylor a few years ago.

PatAg said:

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AggieTFA06 said:

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LawHall88 said:

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AggieTFA06 said:

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I am guaranteeing you that Kennedy will never get to the elite 8 as head coach at TAMU, and I'm basing that off of his past record and performance.

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Which means he will have as many Elite 8s as Mark Turgeon, Billy Gillispie, and Shelby Metcalf combined.

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Exactly. Kennedy isn't better than those coaches.

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You can talent your way into the elite 8, lot of coaches have done that in the past. I'm far from a Kennedy supporter, just pointing it out.

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I thought we were supposed to talent our way into the NIT last year.

Pumpkinhead said:

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BigJim49 AustinNowDallas said:

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^ BS

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What was the BS part?

Kennedy absolutely stunk up the joint the first 3 seasons and probably should have gotten fired in March 2013, but they allowed him to play the shakeup assistants card instead and that seemed to help right the ship (for at least awhile). Of his 6 seasons in College Station, the last three (2014/2015/2016) have been significantly better overall both in recruiting and accomplishments than his first three seasons were.

On the other hand, Sumlin's best seasons of his 5 at A&M were his first two years with Johnny Football in 2012 and 2013. Since Manziel left town, he has been the definition of mediocre going 8-5 for 3 consecutive years. Each time starting strong and then finishing the season poorly. This season *looks* like it will be very difficult for Sumlin to even hit the 8-5 mark this time.

His assistant coaching staff has had shakeup after shakeup (first getting a new D.C., then a new O.C., then a new S&C coach, and so forth) and yet the program hasn't seemed to be able to shake off whatever is ailing it.

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Pumpkin - did someone steal your username?

"Deserve". Really?

And do you contribute funds to the 12th Man?

Hop said:

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AggieTFA06 said:

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I'm not a fan of either coach, but with the resources our university has, we deserve far better.

5 straight bowl games >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 sweet 16 appearance.

I'm not a fan of sumlin, but if he leaves, he has made us better than he found us.

If Kennedy left, he has made us worse than he found us.

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Sumlin inherited six 1st round draft picks, three 2nd-4th round picks, and two more 5th-6th rounders. If Sumlin leaves after this season, there's maybe 1-2 1st round picks and a handful of middle round picks.

Made A&M better than he found it? Take the phenomenon of Johnny out of Sumlin's first season five years ago, and there has been no upward trend in the football program.

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JFF was lightning in a bottle to go with Sherman recruits Mike Evans and the O-Line.


They won't be in bad shape for the next coach. Underdeveloped talent.