It was fun watching duke get knocked off last night by another sec team. It got me thinking about Martin's success in his fifth year with a pair of seniors in Notice and Thornwell. Has he built a culture or did he finally win with an experienced team? How long should their fan base be content if they step back next year?

Martin Kenpom Rankings @ USCe
Year 1 - 209 (4-14) No postseason
Year 2 - 112 (5-13) No postseason
Year 3 - 63 (6-12) No postseason
Year 4 - 58 (11-7) NIT 2nd round
Year 5 - 28 (12-6) #7 seed, sweet 16

Kennedy Kenpom Rankings @ A&M
Year 1 - 122 (4-14) No postseason
Year 2 - 95 (7-11) No postseason
Year 3 - 111 (8-10) 2nd Round NIT
Year 4 - 54 (11-7) 2nd Round NIT
Year 5 - 18 (13-5) #3 seed, sweet 16
Year 6 - 65 (8-10) No postseason

halfastros81 said:

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I dunno but I'd trade straight up if they would. Their defensive intensity is impressive.

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They were like the Tasmanian Devil. All over Duke like a prison gang rape. It wasn't pretty. Georgetown and Arkansas could put of 40 min of hell back in the day. Ball pressure was RAMPED UP.

jml2621 said:

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Haha On cue.



No. BK's 1st year team was projected by the COACHES to win the Big 12.


Martin bought into a DUMPSTER FIRE, where coaches usually go to DIE at USCe.



BK CREATED a Dumpster Fire.

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I agree with you. I'm slowly letting it go on the first year but I'm still not over what happened to that first bk team.

I think you're missing the point though. If we all agree bk needs to go (and I'm in favor), how long should usc be happy?

Maybe the answer is that we're just that much better of a program. I like to believe that, but I'm biased.

SeattleAg05 said:

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I agree with you. I'm slowly letting it go on the first year but I'm still not over what happened to that first bk team.

I think you're missing the point though. If we all agree bk needs to go (and I'm in favor), how long should usc be happy?

Maybe the answer is that we're just that much better of a program. I like to believe that, but I'm biased.

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Are you serious look at the stats you initially posted.

Quote:

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Martin Kenpom Rankings @ USCe
Year 1 - 209 (4-14) No postseason
Year 2 - 112 (5-13) No postseason
Year 3 - 63 (6-12) No postseason
Year 4 - 58 (11-7) NIT 2nd round
Year 5 - 28 (12-6) #7 seed, sweet 16

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improvement every year, where as BK has no trend line.

AG 2000' said:

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Frank Martin:

10 years as head coach
211-125 (.628)
7 total postseason appearances (5 NCAA, 2 NIT)
5 NCAA tournament appearances
5-0 in first round of NCAAs
One Elite Eight appearance
One TBD (currently in Sweet 16)

Billy Kennedy:

19 years as head coach
326-264 (.553)
5 total NCAA appearances (3 NCAA, 2 NIT)
2-1 in first round of NCAAs
One Sweet 16 appearance (on a ridiculous comeback against a lower seed)


Why are we even talking about this? Martin would have had this year's Kennedy squad and the 2011 squad in the tourney, probably 2014's team too.

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Because he got run out of town in Manhattan after huggins' guys left and the results at ksu better be better than Murray st and podunk Louisiana or wherever Kennedy was?

Aggie_Eric98 said:

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SeattleAg05 said:

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I agree with you. I'm slowly letting it go on the first year but I'm still not over what happened to that first bk team.

I think you're missing the point though. If we all agree bk needs to go (and I'm in favor), how long should usc be happy?

Maybe the answer is that we're just that much better of a program. I like to believe that, but I'm biased.

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Are you serious look at the stats you initially posted.

Quote:

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Martin Kenpom Rankings @ USCe
Year 1 - 209 (4-14) No postseason
Year 2 - 112 (5-13) No postseason
Year 3 - 63 (6-12) No postseason
Year 4 - 58 (11-7) NIT 2nd round
Year 5 - 28 (12-6) #7 seed, sweet 16

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improvement every year, where as BK has not trend line.

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Yeah, there's part of me that looks like he's created a real culture at usce with dozier and the freshman guard coming back. Just can't tell whether this is the good year in the five year cycle or if he'll keep it up.

Quote:

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Because he got run out of town in Manhattan after huggins' guys left and the results at ksu better be better than Murray st and podunk Louisiana or wherever Kennedy was?

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wouldn't say he was run out, another team wanted him. His record at KSU was as follows:

2011-12 22-11 Lost Third Round
2010-11 23-11Lost Third Round
2009-10 29-8 Lost Regional Final
2008-09 22-12 no postseason
2007-08 21-12 Lost Second Round

Aggie_Eric98 said:

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Quote:

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Because he got run out of town in Manhattan after huggins' guys left and the results at ksu better be better than Murray st and podunk Louisiana or wherever Kennedy was?

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wouldn't say he was run out, another team wanted him. His record at KSU was as follows:

2011-12 22-11 Lost Third Round
2010-11 23-11Lost Third Round
2009-10 29-8 Lost Regional Final
2008-09 22-12 no postseason
2007-08 21-12 Lost Second Round

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Other than the jacob pullen year, it was ho hum but definitely good enough on results. He got run out of town for the way he did it while getting ho hum results.

https://www.google.com/amp/jugofsnyder.com/2012/05/07/cult-of-frank/amp/

yep, folks forget that Martin had NCAA tourney success at Kansas State.

fair to wonder what he would do with one of the blue blood programs

SeattleAg05 said:

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AG 2000' said:

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Frank Martin:

10 years as head coach
211-125 (.628)
7 total postseason appearances (5 NCAA, 2 NIT)
5 NCAA tournament appearances
5-0 in first round of NCAAs
One Elite Eight appearance
One TBD (currently in Sweet 16)

Billy Kennedy:

19 years as head coach
326-264 (.553)
5 total NCAA appearances (3 NCAA, 2 NIT)
2-1 in first round of NCAAs
One Sweet 16 appearance (on a ridiculous comeback against a lower seed)


Why are we even talking about this? Martin would have had this year's Kennedy squad and the 2011 squad in the tourney, probably 2014's team too.

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Because he got run out of town in Manhattan after huggins' guys left and the results at ksu better be better than Murray st and podunk Louisiana or wherever Kennedy was?

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He didn't get run out, he got hired away. KState didn't want to pay for him, but all they care about is football.

Martin is a time bomb.

SeattleAg05 said:

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It was fun watching duke get knocked off last night by another sec team. It got me thinking about Martin's success in his fifth year with a pair of seniors in Notice and Thornwell. Has he built a culture or did he finally win with an experienced team? How long should their fan base be content if they step back next year?

Martin Kenpom Rankings @ USCe
Year 1 - 209 (4-14) No postseason
Year 2 - 112 (5-13) No postseason
Year 3 - 63 (6-12) No postseason
Year 4 - 58 (11-7) NIT 2nd round
Year 5 - 28 (12-6) #7 seed, sweet 16

Kennedy Kenpom Rankings @ A&M
Year 1 - 122 (4-14) No postseason
Year 2 - 95 (7-11) No postseason
Year 3 - 111 (8-10) 2nd Round CBI
Year 4 - 54 (11-7) 2nd Round NIT
Year 5 - 18 (13-5) #3 seed, sweet 16
Year 6 - 65 (8-10) No postseason

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FIFY

Does anyone understand the point of this thread?

wacarnolds said:

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85AustinAg said:

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Does anyone understand the point of this thread?

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Some posters and paid staff have used Martin as a crutch while defending Kennedy, but I don't think that is what the OP was going for.

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Just trying to stir the pot really since I've consumed 96 hours of basketball and the re-entry to the working world is rough.

It struck me as interesting that you can have two really similar resumes and two really different perceptions. I heard a few different national opinions that usce had built a culture to be replicated and how great Martin had done. For me, I think he looks a lot like BK and this run is fools gold for sc.

SeattleAg05 said:

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It struck me as interesting that you can have two really similar resumes and two really different perceptions. I heard a few different national opinions that usce had built a culture to be replicated and how great Martin had done. For me, I think he looks a lot like BK and this run is fools gold for sc.

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It's fair to be skeptical. It's hard to be good year-in, year-out especially in years when your roster isn't at its peak. Martin could very well experience a BK-like fall from grace next year. Thornwell is the heart and soul of that team and one of the best players in the nation, they undoubtedly will struggle to replace him next year.

Beyond that, I just dont see a lot of comps between Kennedy and Martin, other than both coaches taking an SEC team to the Sweet 16 in Year 5 after missing the first four. If you take that one data point away, the rest of their careers are not that similar.

And the progression in their respective power ratings are not similar, once context is provided. Martin took over an awful program, made clear progress every year and peaked as expected. Kennedy took over a program that had flat-lined, but still has plenty of positive features and absolutely drove it into the ground. No noticeable progress for 3 years, then Stansbury+House+Avery/Plano West all happens in a 6 month period and people are still struggling to figure out what is lasting and what is a freak occurrence.

I'd also add that Frank Martin is likely the best coach SC has had in the past 40 years. Kennedy, well at least he's better than Melvin.

wacarnolds said:

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I'd also add that Frank Martin is likely the best coach SC has had in the past 40 years. Kennedy, well at least he's better than Melvin.

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I'll probably get booed off the stage for suggesting this: but I think if BK could stay here for 26.5 seasons, his record would probably be eerily similar to Shelby Metcalf. Maybe even better.

I think it helps explain program expectations when you think about it in those terms.

(Please make sure your tomatoes are soft before you throw them)

deadbq03 said:

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wacarnolds said:

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I'd also add that Frank Martin is likely the best coach SC has had in the past 40 years. Kennedy, well at least he's better than Melvin.

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I'll probably get booed off the stage for suggesting this: but I think if BK could stay here for 26.5 seasons, his record would probably be eerily similar to Shelby Metcalf. Maybe even better.

I think it helps explain program expectations when you think about it in those terms.

(Please make sure your tomatoes are soft before you throw them)

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What point are you trying to make? Shelby's record is unacceptable now.

Method Man said:

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deadbq03 said:

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wacarnolds said:

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I'd also add that Frank Martin is likely the best coach SC has had in the past 40 years. Kennedy, well at least he's better than Melvin.

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I'll probably get booed off the stage for suggesting this: but I think if BK could stay here for 26.5 seasons, his record would probably be eerily similar to Shelby Metcalf. Maybe even better.

I think it helps explain program expectations when you think about it in those terms.

(Please make sure your tomatoes are soft before you throw them)

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What point are you trying to make? Shelby's record is unacceptable now.

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And yet most Ags over a certain age consider him a legend and wouldn't agree that he wasn't a great coach. He "got" A&M, was by any story I've heard a great guy, and he kept his head above .500. And went to a tourney once every five years or so. That's all it takes. Then and now. Hurray. That's my point. People who wonder why we don't get better than BK need to look no further than Metcalf.

I'm not saying it should be that way, but it's what we're stuck with until some blue hairs pass away.

Ah ok. I don't know if it's the same but I do think it's probably the same at the top. Kennedy isn't half as charming as Shelby and he's gotten a lot more help.

He probably would have made a 68 team field more often

I'll never ever like our chances playing coach k with BK on the sideline. Frank Martin's sweet 16 run is already far more impressive. I also really doubt he gets blown out next round either.

College basketball is such a coach-driven game. Unless you can recruit like a blue blood (see unc), you better be a strong sideline coach for the consistent success we all desire.

Quote:

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Because he got run out of town in Manhattan after huggins' guys left and the results at ksu better be better than Murray st and podunk Louisiana or wherever Kennedy was?

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I'm guessing that you're screwing up your history because I can't imagine they ran Martin out of town. If anything, they probably felt like we did after Gillispie left.

In his final 3 years he won 29, 23, and 22 games, and advanced to the Elite 8 and round of 32 x2. That's acceptable just about anywhere.

As far as comparing the results: South Carolina is a really tough job, and Martin took it over at a nadir. In the 3 years prior to his arrival, South Carolina finished with these conference records:

6-10
5-11
2-14

That is a winning percentage of < 30%, which is beyond dreadful. We can talk about injuries and roster holes, but Loubeau was All Big 12 3rd team in 2010-2011, Middleton was All Big 12 2nd team in 2010-2011, and Turner was a scoring machine from the word go. Kennedy didn't inherit anything close to a 2-14 team like Martin did. South Carolina was a ground-up program build (can't even call it rebuild because they'd sucked for decades prior to his arrival).

Martin overcame an empty roster and no history to do what he's done and it's pretty damn impressive. Combine that with his performance at KSU (1 fantastic season, 3 great seasons, and 1 good season) and there's no freaking doubt that he's a better coach than Kennedy. None. And it isn't even close (sorry, Hop).

Martin left because he hated his boss.

SeattleAg05 said:

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jml2621 said:

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Haha On cue.



No. BK's 1st year team was projected by the COACHES to win the Big 12.


Martin bought into a DUMPSTER FIRE, where coaches usually go to DIE at USCe.



BK CREATED a Dumpster Fire.

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I agree with you. I'm slowly letting it go on the first year but I'm still not over what happened to that first bk team.

I think you're missing the point though. If we all agree bk needs to go (and I'm in favor), how long should usc be happy?

Maybe the answer is that we're just that much better of a program. I like to believe that, but I'm biased.

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Those statement's aren't really linked.


If you are asking if Texas A&M is a better job for recruiting a new HC than USCe, the answer is absolutely YES.

In fact, our ability to land a quality HC is not better than right now.

If we had any cujones, we'd strike now.



But we don't...



FWIW, USCe will fall off some next year with the loss of talent...but the kind of on ball, perimeter defense that Martin is perfecting WINS GAMES. If he can find kids who can actually shoot consistently, look out.