cecil77 said:

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I'm not interested in aging wine much. Too many great 20+ year old bottles available (mostly BDX for me) of great wine that's still at sane prices.

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Help me out. What and where are you getting aged bottles at sane prices?

I've been to Bergstrom and Soter. Soter was fancier. Bergstrom I like the wines better. But fun stops.

We dropped into Avidity Wines and it was very relaxing, low key, and nice views. It was good and I recommend for a quick visit.

Blakeslee was a beautiful little property with a nice view too. It was one of our firsts stops in the valley so I don't recall the wine as well.

Ayoub - great wine. Weird tasting in that it's the owner and you in his kitchen. Still his rose was great as were his Pinots

Todays last bottle (2020 Beau Vigne Juliet) is a good deal if you like fruit forward napa cabs.

Vivino usually has deals on Vigne cabs too. I would try there as you can get for $50 pretty regularly and either the 18 or 19.

It's all about relationships in the wine business. There are brokers, local merchants, one off guys, online dealers, etc. to buy from. The more your buy, the more you get to see and higher tier/first look you get. Don't think TX (or GA as your handle entails) but think nationally and internationally.

Europe has lots of cellars that go to auction all the time at reasonable prices; find the teams that buy those type wines for import and you are on the right track.

Make friends/wine buddies; they'll have access to stuff, maybe have different sources, and might know of someone offloading or rebalancing a local cellar.

mpl35 said:

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I've been to Bergstrom and Soter. Soter was fancier. Bergstrom I like the wines better. But fun stops.

We dropped into Avidity Wines and it was very relaxing, low key, and nice views. It was good and I recommend for a quick visit.

Blakeslee was a beautiful little property with a nice view too. It was one of our firsts stops in the valley so I don't recall the wine as well.

Ayoub - great wine. Weird tasting in that it's the owner and you in his kitchen. Still his rose was great as were his Pinots

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I went to Bergrstrom several years ago, really liked the visit. They make hella good chardonnays.

Que es?

I'm taking a 2009 Chteau Brane-Cantenac to a dinner tonight for friends. The only other time I've had this label i was really impressed with the quality at the price point. Almost like a baby Ch. Margaux.

BSD said:

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Que es?

I'm taking a 2009 Chteau Brane-Cantenac to a dinner tonight for friends. The only other time I've had this label i was really impressed with the quality at the price point. Almost like a baby Ch. Margaux.

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2009 Orin Swift Mercury Head. Bought a few at auction. First try

Wow, a Napa cab you don't know.

QB Cade going deep into the pre-Constellation Prisoner portfolio.

How is it? Still ripe but rounding out now? Smooth but higher ABV?

aggiejumper said:

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Wow, a Napa cab you don't know.

QB Cade going deep into the pre-Constellation Prisoner portfolio.

How is it? Still ripe but rounding out now? Smooth but higher ABV?

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It's simply ok. I don't think it was cellared properly.

Yes, mediocre QPR IMO, but save the Dime!

cecil77 said:

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Yes, mediocre QPR IMO, but save the Dime!

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Yes. At that price point, frankly hard to beat Beringer Private Reserve

I just looked and it's listed for $170! Give me
Some Greer or Roy Piper at that price . Could buy 3 bottles of Frogs Leap Estate Cab for that. So many great options at or below that price. But it's always cool to try old bottles and see where they go.

WestUAg said:

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I just looked and it's listed for $170! Give me
Some Greer or Roy Piper at that price . Could buy 3 bottles of Frogs Leap Estate Cab for that. So many great options at or below that price. But it's always cool to try old bottles and see where they go.

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Check auctions. I got 3 bottles for $94 per. Hence, I'm done buying current vintage Napa. At least unless price normalizes.

QBCade said:

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cecil77 said:

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Yes, mediocre QPR IMO, but save the Dime!

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Yes. At that price point, frankly hard to beat Beringer Private Reserve

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Bought a 3 bottle vertical of Private reserve on lastbottle about 6 months ago. I've only opened the '17, but thought it was quite good.

This thread is a pretty good cross section of wine drinkers. If this many people, who do spend some money on wine, are shying away from Napa (be it price, style or both) - I gotta believe we're not unique. Will be interesting to see what happens...

I'm not so sure it matters. There are plenty of other areas (bourbon, Rolex watches) where people are willing to pay absurd amounts relative to actual value in order to show clout. If you can continue to bring new consumers into the fold with promises of exclusive and rare the cycle will continue. How many of these $300+ per wineries have a waitlist that is multi-year?

I was just referring to the new stuff. And yes you have to buy auctions to find any deals. It's how
I have built a big portion
Of my cellar.

My LastBottle marathon shipment arrived. Random purchases but per Texags suggestion I am trying different things.

Also. My wine journey notes so far would be
* there's a minimal threshold to getting enjoyable wine. The cheap sugared up stuff is almost more like Pepsi. Once you rise above that you can find enjoyable wines in all price points.
* Pinot Noir has been something that has scored well. Might h lo that my girlfriend has appreciated them too. But in many settings I find them balanced but with enough complexity. I had a Frank Family that was quite the crowd pleaser.
* I've gotten addicted to a Cab Franc but my research said these are all over the place but the one I've discovered is crisp.
* man, cheap Chardonnay ruins what Chardonnay is supposed to be. Flowers Chardonnay or even the old school cakebrrad or whatnot can be a really nice refreshing experience.
* Italian wines are less sweet. Way more affordable in most cases. Took a wine class and man their branding and naming is confusing but a nice brunello or Montepulciano Nobile or whatever can hit the spot and they are rarely crazy expensive.
* decanting actually makes a big difference.
* knowledgeable wine friends are easy to learn from but many people are just basic it turns out.
* serving temp makes a noticeable difference. A cab at room temperature is no where near as clean as a properly chilled version.

Best wine thus far has been The Mascot 2017.


Again I realize there's more I don't know than I do know but this is fun.

JCA1 said:

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QBCade said:

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cecil77 said:

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Yes, mediocre QPR IMO, but save the Dime!

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Yes. At that price point, frankly hard to beat Beringer Private Reserve

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Bought a 3 bottle vertical of Private reserve on lastbottle about 6 months ago. I've only opened the '17, but thought it was quite good.

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2013 and 2016 are really good.

QBCade said:

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JCA1 said:

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QBCade said:

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cecil77 said:

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Yes, mediocre QPR IMO, but save the Dime!

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Yes. At that price point, frankly hard to beat Beringer Private Reserve

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Bought a 3 bottle vertical of Private reserve on lastbottle about 6 months ago. I've only opened the '17, but thought it was quite good.

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2013 and 2016 are really good.

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The vertical was 2016-18, so I have one of those. Probably give it another year or so but looking forward to it.

From a QPR standpoint, Tuscan Sangiovese is hard to beat. There is lots of good Rosso di Montalcino out there for <$30 per bottle.

Objective Aggie said:

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Also. My wine journey notes so far would be
* there's a minimal threshold to getting enjoyable wine. The cheap sugared up stuff is almost more like Pepsi. Once you rise above that you can find enjoyable wines in all price points.
* Pinot Noir has been something that has scored well. Might h lo that my girlfriend has appreciated them too. But in many settings I find them balanced but with enough complexity. I had a Frank Family that was quite the crowd pleaser.
* I've gotten addicted to a Cab Franc but my research said these are all over the place but the one I've discovered is crisp.
* man, cheap Chardonnay ruins what Chardonnay is supposed to be. Flowers Chardonnay or even the old school cakebrrad or whatnot can be a really nice refreshing experience.
* Italian wines are less sweet. Way more affordable in most cases. Took a wine class and man their branding and naming is confusing but a nice brunello or Montepulciano Nobile or whatever can hit the spot and they are rarely crazy expensive.
* decanting actually makes a big difference.
* knowledgeable wine friends are easy to learn from but many people are just basic it turns out.
* serving temp makes a noticeable difference. A cab at room temperature is no where near as clean as a properly chilled version.

Best wine thus far has been The Mascot 2017.


Again I realize there's more I don't know than I do know but this is fun.

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These are good notes. Besides Sangiovese, I have been enjoying buying 10 year old gran reserva rioja in the 25-35 price point and find that to be really delicious for the price. I have blind tasted it for people and asked "what do you like better" with bottles that are more expensive from nicer regions and a lot of people like the rioja.

I haven't found a perfect bottle yet on a week night sipper in a burgundy white that I love that's just a village level crisp white, but I have had several in the 20-30 range that are nice for a Tuesday night.

I really haven't had any high end white burgundy's and have almost exclusively had premier cru Chablis in the 50/btl range.

It's an unpopular opinion on this board, but I really don't love the 75-125 Napa cabs I have had. They are good, but I find them too much. Too much alcohol, too bold, too fruit driven. Just not my pallet I think. Of course there are exceptions, to this, but often times I'd rather have a smart buy from BDX in the 40-60 range than the Napa Valley 100/btl.

This year id like to stock back up on:
ayoub Pinot and chard
chenin (sec and demi sec) from the loire
dry Riesling
Bandol rose
Chablis
QPR Bordeaux
Sangiovese (should be making use of this threads recommendations on Tuscany)

Cheers y'all.

Wow, lots of good thoughts.

Several comments, in no particular order:

* Serving temperature - too cold and retro-nasal shuts down (like tasting when you have a cold), too warm and alcohol volatizes giving acrid smell. One thing though is to recognize the difference between taste and the sensation of being refreshed (cool/cold drink on a warm day). I think many people drink their wines (both red and white) too cold because it's refreshing. But yeah, "room temperature" should never have been a thing, rather "cellar temperature".

Quote:

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It's an unpopular opinion on this board, but I really don't love the 75-125 Napa cabs I have had. They are good, but I find them too much. Too much alcohol, too bold, too fruit driven. Just not my pallet I think. Of course there are exceptions, to this, but often times I'd rather have a smart buy from BDX in the 40-60 range than the Napa Valley 100/btl.

---

* That may be a more popular opinion on this board than you think. And I would extend it to $250 Napa cabs and some even higher than that. "too" is also exactly how I describe them. Over ripeness and overextraction can mask subtle clonal differences (similar to an amp clipping to where the music just becomes noise) - IMO it's why you can throw a blanket over many high dollar Napa cabs - they just taste very similar. A $40-80 Premier Cru from St Emilion can be a tremendous bargain.

* Cab Franc - One of my favorites, especially for value. But again, when it's overripened it loses the CF varietal character with it's seductive spices and becomes "just wine". I tend to like CF from the Loire Valley.

* Decanting - I go back and forth. On the one hand it helps many younger vintages, but then again I like perceiving the changes in the wine as the bottle is consumed. It's also a crapshoot on old wines, could help but could also destroy it.

* Wine friends - this is probably the best part of wine. And yes there are those with 20 years experience and those with one year experience repeated 20 times. And not anyone can know anywhere close to "everything". I've got friends that know a vast number of labels and winemakers but know almost nothing about the winery or vineyards. I also know winemakers that don't know every cult or obscure Napa ultra premium but have vast knowledge of growing grapes and making wine. And sort of knowledge in between. And therein lies the fun of having wine friends, there's always something you know, but there's always something you don't but a friend does.

Quote:

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there's a minimal threshold to getting enjoyable wine. The cheap sugared up stuff is almost more like Pepsi. Once you rise above that you can find enjoyable wines in all price points.

---

Absolutely! But it changes with time and budget. My buy in used to be $30-ish. It's quite a bit higher now, but I'm on the old side (i.e. I know I'm not gonna die broke) so the money spends more easily. And the thrill of finding a quality but inexpensive wine also tails off. It's the old story of the guy who says "I found a $20 wine as good as your $100 bottle!" and his friend replies "well yeah, but you had to buy 8 different bottles to find it."

cecil77 said:

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Wow, lots of good thoughts.

Several comments, in no particular order:

* Serving temperature - too cold and retro-nasal shuts down (like tasting when you have a cold), too warm and alcohol volatizes giving acrid smell. One thing though is to recognize the difference between taste and the sensation of being refreshed (cool/cold drink on a warm day). I think many people drink their wines (both red and white) too cold because it's refreshing. But yeah, "room temperature" should never have been a thing, rather "cellar temperature".

Quote:

---

It's an unpopular opinion on this board, but I really don't love the 75-125 Napa cabs I have had. They are good, but I find them too much. Too much alcohol, too bold, too fruit driven. Just not my pallet I think. Of course there are exceptions, to this, but often times I'd rather have a smart buy from BDX in the 40-60 range than the Napa Valley 100/btl.

---

* That may be a more popular opinion on this board than you think. And I would extend it to $250 Napa cabs and some even higher than that. "too" is also exactly how I describe them. Over ripeness and overextraction can mask subtle clonal differences (similar to an amp clipping to where the music just becomes noise) - IMO it's why you can throw a blanket over many high dollar Napa cabs - they just taste very similar. A $40-80 Premier Cru from St Emilion can be a tremendous bargain.

* Cab Franc - One of my favorites, especially for value. But again, when it's overripened it loses the CF varietal character with it's seductive spices and becomes "just wine". I tend to like CF from the Loire Valley.

* Decanting - I go back and forth. On the one hand it helps many younger vintages, but then again I like perceiving the changes in the wine as the bottle is consumed. It's also a crapshoot on old wines, could help but could also destroy it.

* Wine friends - this is probably the best part of wine. And yes there are those with 20 years experience and those with one year experience repeated 20 times. And not anyone can know anywhere close to "everything". I've got friends that know a vast number of labels and winemakers but know almost nothing about the winery or vineyards. I also know winemakers that don't know every cult or obscure Napa ultra premium but have vast knowledge of growing grapes and making wine. And sort of knowledge in between. And therein lies the fun of having wine friends, there's always something you know, but there's always something you don't but a friend does.

Quote:

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there's a minimal threshold to getting enjoyable wine. The cheap sugared up stuff is almost more like Pepsi. Once you rise above that you can find enjoyable wines in all price points.

---

Absolutely! But it changes with time and budget. My buy in used to be $30-ish. It's quite a bit higher now, but I'm on the old side (i.e. I know I'm not gonna die broke) so the money spends more easily. And the thrill of finding a quality but inexpensive wine also tails off. It's the old story of the guy who says "I found a $20 wine as good as your $100 bottle!" and his friend replies "well yeah, but you had to buy 8 different bottles to find it."

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Lots of good convo here. I'm a fan of Napa cabs, but IMO you have to spend too much and know what you're getting. The super fruit forward/jammy/Caymus style seems to be prevalent now and is just not my taste.

Personally, I'm a big proponent of decanting, old or new.

I do like BDX, but just haven't spent the time to get to know more. Plus, I live in CA and would rather drink local.

Had a while I was into Pinots, primarily Santa Lucia area, but kinda moved on.

I have found all of my favorite Napa wines are made by French, or in one case Swiss, winemakers. I enjoy BDX, but admittedly don't have near enough knowledge or experience to opine or even feel confident in which styles I like best.

cecil77 said:

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Wow, lots of good thoughts.

Several comments, in no particular order:

* Serving temperature - too cold and retro-nasal shuts down (like tasting when you have a cold), too warm and alcohol volatizes giving acrid smell. One thing though is to recognize the difference between taste and the sensation of being refreshed (cool/cold drink on a warm day). I think many people drink their wines (both red and white) too cold because it's refreshing. But yeah, "room temperature" should never have been a thing, rather "cellar temperature".

Quote:

---

It's an unpopular opinion on this board, but I really don't love the 75-125 Napa cabs I have had. They are good, but I find them too much. Too much alcohol, too bold, too fruit driven. Just not my pallet I think. Of course there are exceptions, to this, but often times I'd rather have a smart buy from BDX in the 40-60 range than the Napa Valley 100/btl.

---

* That may be a more popular opinion on this board than you think. And I would extend it to $250 Napa cabs and some even higher than that. "too" is also exactly how I describe them. Over ripeness and overextraction can mask subtle clonal differences (similar to an amp clipping to where the music just becomes noise) - IMO it's why you can throw a blanket over many high dollar Napa cabs - they just taste very similar. A $40-80 Premier Cru from St Emilion can be a tremendous bargain.

* Cab Franc - One of my favorites, especially for value. But again, when it's overripened it loses the CF varietal character with it's seductive spices and becomes "just wine". I tend to like CF from the Loire Valley.

* Decanting - I go back and forth. On the one hand it helps many younger vintages, but then again I like perceiving the changes in the wine as the bottle is consumed. It's also a crapshoot on old wines, could help but could also destroy it.

* Wine friends - this is probably the best part of wine. And yes there are those with 20 years experience and those with one year experience repeated 20 times. And not anyone can know anywhere close to "everything". I've got friends that know a vast number of labels and winemakers but know almost nothing about the winery or vineyards. I also know winemakers that don't know every cult or obscure Napa ultra premium but have vast knowledge of growing grapes and making wine. And sort of knowledge in between. And therein lies the fun of having wine friends, there's always something you know, but there's always something you don't but a friend does.

Quote:

---

there's a minimal threshold to getting enjoyable wine. The cheap sugared up stuff is almost more like Pepsi. Once you rise above that you can find enjoyable wines in all price points.

---

Absolutely! But it changes with time and budget. My buy in used to be $30-ish. It's quite a bit higher now, but I'm on the old side (i.e. I know I'm not gonna die broke) so the money spends more easily. And the thrill of finding a quality but inexpensive wine also tails off. It's the old story of the guy who says "I found a $20 wine as good as your $100 bottle!" and his friend replies "well yeah, but you had to buy 8 different bottles to find it."

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Hah! Agree on your last paragraph! Luckily, I find Reddit /wine are very helpful to cut the searching for quality at lower price points a little easier.

Do you have any recs for producers in the Loire that make CFs you like? I agree with you. I have mostly tried Chenin and CFs from Chinon and Vouvray. It's on my list to try a few different CBs from Savienniers (I think my spelling is close enough from memory) and to try CFs from Bourgiel (again, think my spelling is close enough off memory). I have been trying stuff anywhere from 20-50/btl but would spend more if you're passionate about something.

Lastly, agree with QBCade on buying local but it's hard to find quality at reasonable price points that can't be beat by something Italian, French, or Spanish on wine.com or total wine at a similar price point for what I tend to be interested in.

As far as decanting, I rarely, if ever, decant old BDX but almost always decant Napa cabs that are under 15 years old, which is most of what I own Napa-wise. I'll also decant young champagne but I try not to drink young champagne. I drink Pinots in the 7-10 year range and rarely decant those.

I was thinking of my own buying habits and noticed that last year I bought way more European wines than domestic. 2022 was evenly distributed. That's quite the shift from prior years. Lots of champagne and left bank BDX made up most of those purchases. I also buy a little JJ Prum but I typically buy those for eating with Thai food and I purchase 4-6 aged bottles to last the year. They are just too hard to store with such long bottles for me to stock up on. And buying aged Riesling's aren't too expensive.

BSD, how old is the JJ Prum you're buying? I assume kabinett?

Ive been buying ~20 years old Auslese and Spatlese. It's nice with spicy Thai food.

Where are you buying that? K&L?

My wife and I honeymooned in Thailand so we love some spicy Thai. Riesling (and champagne) also goes well with sushi!