It's over 11,000 currently on Macdonald wait list. He thinks he will have more wine next release and hopes to add a few hundred people to active list .
He's coming over in February so will get an update from him then about how many more will be added to active list next release.

As part of a wine pairing for an 8 course tasting menu, last night I had a glass of 2017 Ink Grade Howell Mountain Cab that was spectacular. Is anyone familiar with them? Is there a waiting list for allocation? Do they sell their allocations at a discount to retail?

Unfortunately I didn't get a picture of the bottle.

ATL Aggie said:

---

As part of a wine pairing for an 8 course tasting menu, last night I had a glass of 2017 Ink Grade Howell Mountain Cab that was spectacular. Is anyone familiar with them? Is there a waiting list for allocation? Do they sell their allocations at a discount to retail?

Unfortunately I didn't get a picture of the bottle.

---

Looks like it's available online.

https://buywinesonline.com/products/ink-grade-howell-mountain-cabernet-sauvignon-2017-750-ml

greenband said:

---

ATL Aggie said:

---

As part of a wine pairing for an 8 course tasting menu, last night I had a glass of 2017 Ink Grade Howell Mountain Cab that was spectacular. Is anyone familiar with them? Is there a waiting list for allocation? Do they sell their allocations at a discount to retail?

Unfortunately I didn't get a picture of the bottle.

---

Looks like it's available online.

https://buywinesonline.com/products/ink-grade-howell-mountain-cabernet-sauvignon-2017-750-ml

---

Looks like it's about $75 for latest vintage. 2019 was a better year in general too, so I would likely buy that instead. Unless they lost their winemaker or something.

QBCade said:

---

greenband said:

---

ATL Aggie said:

---

As part of a wine pairing for an 8 course tasting menu, last night I had a glass of 2017 Ink Grade Howell Mountain Cab that was spectacular. Is anyone familiar with them? Is there a waiting list for allocation? Do they sell their allocations at a discount to retail?

Unfortunately I didn't get a picture of the bottle.

---

Looks like it's available online.

https://buywinesonline.com/products/ink-grade-howell-mountain-cabernet-sauvignon-2017-750-ml

---

Looks like it's about $75 for latest vintage. 2019 was a better year in general too, so I would likely buy that instead. Unless they lost their winemaker or something.

---

They $75 was thru 3rd party resellers. Looks like it's $195 on their website.

Had some Pott for NYD

Here are the wines opened at our place over the holidays.

2013 Pott Incubo
2013 Maybach Materium
2018 Teeter Totter chard
2019 Rivers Marie Pinot Sonoma Coast
2020 Myriad Dr Crane Elysian
2013 Pott Wine Cabernet Sauvignon Kaliholmanok
2022 Myriad Semillon
NV Delamotte Blanc de Blancs

BSD said:

---

Here are the wines opened at our place over the holidays.

2013 Pott Incubo
2013 Maybach Materium
2018 Teeter Totter chard
2019 Rivers Marie Pinot Sonoma Coast
2020 Myriad Dr Crane Elysian
2013 Pott Wine Cabernet Sauvignon Kaliholmanok
2022 Myriad Semillon
NV Delamotte Blanc de Blancs

---

How was the Maybach?

Awesome. It is up there with the 2007 Maybach as one of my favorite Napa wines. I opened a bottle in October for a buddy while on a dive trip in Cozumel and felt bad that my wife wasn't able to enjoy it so we opened this one for her birthday dinner.

BSD said:

---

Awesome. It is up there with the 2007 Maybach as one of my favorite Napa wines. I opened a bottle in October for a buddy while on a dive trip in Cozumel and felt bad that my wife wasn't able to enjoy it so we opened this one for her birthday dinner.

---

Oddly enough, I see a 3 pack of the '07 coming up for bid in 2 days. Will have to throw my hat in the ring.

Do it! I still have 2 bottles, a half bottle, and a mag left. I'll probably check in on them in a few years.

cecil77 said:

---

"produced by" on the back label indicates that the grapes were fermented by the winery on the label.

All other terms, bottled, cellared, vinted, are post fermentation terms, i.e. the winery purchased wine (i.e. bulk) from somewhere. Note there is an obscure term "made by" which is also pre-fermentation but it's rare.

As to quality, honestly, it like the saying in horse racing: "The race doesn't always go to the fastest horse.... But that's the way to bet."

For wine it's "The more expensive wine isn't always better, but that's the way to bet."

Also tastes changes, 10 years ago I thought huge extracted black current pudding laced with vanilla Napa cabs were great, and spent quite bit of money on them. Now they're in the chiller likely to never be consumed, as my wife and I really don't care for them now.

So I guess the answer is "spend more and drink more". (only slightly kidding)

Speaking of that, I've got a couple cases (total) of Realm, Myriad and Carter that I wouldn't mind passing on to someone who would enjoy them. I'd just want what I paid...

---

OK, so I am learning here . . .
The Flowers above says "estate bottled" which goggle says is

Quote:

---

"In the USA, the term 'estate bottled' is defined by law and the wine must have been made and bottled at the producer's winery, and from grapes from vineyards owned or controlled by the producer that are within the same viticultural area as the winery," says Vicky Burt MW, head of product development for wine qualifications at the Wine & Spirit Education Trust.

In other words, estate-bottled wines are made with grapes that share geographical provenance and are farmed, fermented, aged and bottled on-site.

---

If I understand Flowers correctly, I think they have a coalition and share grapes or something like that. So while not "produced by" this would in name atleast tend to be more controlled and less outsourced. Or maybe not at all. ????

Apologize for being uneducated but I am trying here.

lastly, what's the better wine ratings . . . . vivino or Cellar Tracker?

Objective Aggie said:

---

lastly, what's the better wine ratings . . . . vivino or Cellar Tracker?

---

Different user bases for sure. Vivino you will get the same rating of say 4.1 for a standout $12 rose as you would a $65 pinot noir or $90 cabernet. The rose will have a lot more ratings though and the drinker base will be much larger. The higher end stuff drinker bases drop off a little bit, and ratings can become a bit more structured and focused around converting the 100 point system to the 5.0 star system.

Cellar tracker you'll be lucky to find many $12 rose ratings, and the ratings for the higher end stuff will be more focused I bet.

I used to write more when I rated on Vivino, but I just don't have the time/bandwidth to do that as much right now.

That being said, there are power users on Vivino that are more or less amateur wine critics, so that can be cool to find them and follow their wines or reference their ratings.

For the above mentioned reasons I don't fine any value to vivino. I use cellartracker to track my own wines and it's the go to for me for other opinions, especially the current state of a bottle.

As to "estate bottled" according to Dr. Vinny

Quote:

---

One of the more rare terms is "estate bottled," which means that the winery listed on the label owns or controls 100 percent of the grapes that went into the bottle, and the wine was crushed, fermented, finished, aged and bottled all in the same place, and that place has to be located in the same viticultural area that's stated on the label.

---

https://www.winespectator.com/articles/does-it-mean-anything-when-a-wine-label-says-bottled-by-cellared-by-or-estate-bottled-48442

I could see it being used when a winery has had to close (like Sherwin burning) but is still growing grapes. Or a new winery that just hadn't gotten started on it's own yet.

Also, that definition of "estate" is correct, my personal opinion is that for most it means "I'm standing in the winery and can look out at the vineyard that grew the grapes in the glass of wine I'm holding." By the definition you can call something "estate grown" when the vineyard is 50 miles away, as long as you own it.

Good addition cecil. Estate bottling is handy but it does not mean in and of itself that it's wine that is produced within walking distance or even sight of the winery as it may sound to the lay man. It does add a little extra credence to the wine, but it's minimal for me.

For example, depending on grape/grower contracts, the winery may have 100% control over the grapes they are receiving. E.G. Winery A has rows 1 through 50 on the vineyard, Winery B has rows 51-100 on the vineyard and pays for the work in the vineyards for their rows. Winery A has their grapes managed by a 3rd party but handles winemaking once picked. Winery B manages everything they just don't own the physical land but are paying for the grape rights. In this instance, I believe A cannot say estate wine, but B could. Does this add any consumer value? Perhaps. But it could also be meaningless.

I made this example up and I'm not a lawyer, take it FWIW but this is all my understanding of it.

TLDR: There are loopholes in the term estate when it comes to wine, so it may or may not mean much.

Agree. It's fun, but not an important determiner. There's also the case where the vineyard management (i.e. labor) is contracted out, but the winemaker still makes all decisions as to pruning, leaf pulling, harvest date, etc.

"Produced by" does mean something to me, at any price.

That said I use Vivino but you have to know what you are looking at.

I am new to Cellar Tracker so I will have to play around on that.

Objective Aggie said:

---

Chipotlemonger said:

---

Objective Aggie said:

---

lastly, what's the better wine ratings . . . . vivino or Cellar Tracker?

---

Different user bases for sure. Vivino you will get the same rating of say 4.1 for a standout $12 rose as you would a $65 pinot noir or $90 cabernet. The rose will have a lot more ratings though and the drinker base will be much larger. The higher end stuff drinker bases drop off a little bit, and ratings can become a bit more structured and focused around converting the 100 point system to the 5.0 star system.

Cellar tracker you'll be lucky to find many $12 rose ratings, and the ratings for the higher end stuff will be more focused I bet.

I used to write more when I rated on Vivino, but I just don't have the time/bandwidth to do that as much right now.

That being said, there are power users on Vivino that are more or less amateur wine critics, so that can be cool to find them and follow their wines or reference their ratings.

---

Wait. Are you suggesting that the 170,000 reviewers of Meiomi that gave it a 4.1 might not be indicative of reality?

---

You said in 1 sentence what I tried to say in many more. I shiver anytime someone's pouring that *****

Objective Aggie said:

---

That said I use Vivino but you have to know what you are looking at.

I am new to Cellar Tracker so I will have to play around on that.

---

I like Vivino as my own personal catalog of wines that I've drank. Below 4 = I wouldn't go out of my way to buy it again nor drink it again. 4 I would drink again, probably buy again, Above 4 is a wine I would like or even love to have and/or buy again On this scale for me, 3.7 and lower is not good. 3.8 - 4 is good. 4.1+ = good, 4.3+ = great, 4.5+ = excellent, 4.8+ = knocks your socks off.

This is my rough internal approximation. I don't mind giving 4.5 - 5 scores to wines that really deliver great value, which is different than a normal wine critic approach. But I'm rating partially against my wallet as well. So a $45 zin from Dry Creek that is phenomenal and easily purchased may get a 4.7, even though it's 100 point rating is less. I may go buy another bottle. Likewise, a $150 Shiraz may get a 4.8, but I may not buy it again and want to explore other things.

Cellartracker is a bargain to track your collection.

IMO it's most valuable to help determine if I want to open a bottle now, or not.

CellarTracker is great. It does everything I need it to do. The one catch is that I have to remember to hit the drink/consume button twice. There have been many occasions where I have forgotten to do this leading me to believe there's wine in the chiller that doesn't exist anymore.

Chipotlemonger said:

---

Good addition cecil. Estate bottling is handy but it does not mean in and of itself that it's wine that is produced within walking distance or even sight of the winery as it may sound to the lay man. It does add a little extra credence to the wine, but it's minimal for me.

For example, depending on grape/grower contracts, the winery may have 100% control over the grapes they are receiving. E.G. Winery A has rows 1 through 50 on the vineyard, Winery B has rows 51-100 on the vineyard and pays for the work in the vineyards for their rows. Winery A has their grapes managed by a 3rd party but handles winemaking once picked. Winery B manages everything they just don't own the physical land but are paying for the grape rights. In this instance, I believe A cannot say estate wine, but B could. Does this add any consumer value? Perhaps. But it could also be meaningless.

I made this example up and I'm not a lawyer, take it FWIW but this is all my understanding of it.

TLDR: There are loopholes in the term estate when it comes to wine, so it may or may not mean much.

---

but estate does mean owned production, and that same fruit was fermented and bottled by that winery and the winery and the fruit are in the same AVA (I think). It is pretty rare for someone to own vineyards but to have the winery somewhere else... just too expensive in general.

Ironically Caymus has moved to Fairfield, even though they still have vineyards in Napa. A dispute with Napa authorities. The back label mentions grapes from all over Napa.

QBCade said:

---

cecil77 said:

---

Ironically Caymus has moved to Fairfield, even though they still have vineyards in Napa. A dispute with Napa authorities. The back label mentions grapes from all over Napa.

---

Where is the Meomi to join that Caymus?

---

Why, blended right in, of course...

cecil77 said:

---

Cellartracker is a bargain to track your collection.

IMO it's most valuable to help determine if I want to open a bottle now, or not.

---

I am bad at keeping my cellar tracker updated.