What style is it?

cecil77 said:

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What style is it?

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My interpretation of it is that it has a slight cherry or raspberry forward flavor but not overpowering.

YouBet said:

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I'm going to pollute this thread and proclaim the 2021 Hess Family Select Pinot Noir from Central Coast is an absolutly incredible wine for $13. One of the best values I've found in many years. Highly recommend if you just want a daily Pinot and not looking to open the really good stuff.

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Not polluting at all! Love any and all wine discussion.

I may get my wife a few of these for daily drinkers. We used to drink some other Hess wines back in the day and I always thought they were good value.

I went to Hess back in 2022 and had a great visit. Been a fan since that visit. They do some really cool winery only stuff with varietals like Albarino, Grenache…etc. Surprisingly never had the Pinot Noir. I'm going to have to try it.

I've always thought the Hess Allomi cab for $25 is a decent everyday drinker.

JCA1 said:

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I've always thought the Hess Allomi cab for $25 is a decent everyday drinker.

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For a lower priced everyday Cab, I like The Calling.

QBCade said:

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JCA1 said:

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I've always thought the Hess Allomi cab for $25 is a decent everyday drinker.

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For a lower priced everyday Cab, I like The Calling.

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Alexander Valley Vineyards is the best $20-$25 +/- wine that I have found so far.

I haven't had it in a several years but Roth cab was a good wine in that price range.

I had Roth at the winery a few years back and would get in in a club shipment occasionally, the one they sent we didn't care for.

Are any of these less expensive wines truly dry? All the ones I've tried recently (including an Austin Hope that my BIL ordered at dinner recently) are palpably sweet, e.g. I would bet the Austin Hope had added sugar.

Agree on Roth.

Also this one is pretty good as well in that range . . .

Also I had a bottle of Austin Hope Harvester (their $20 cab) that I received as a gift and I liked it at first but . . . .
got a wine headache almost immediately.

Is it just me or do the California volume producers use more fillers and what not because every time I take a chance with a volume producer on their moderately priced stuff I get a headache.

Agree on this, would much rather go with an AVV wine than Austin Hope anything.

As for your question cecil, yes you can get non-juicified wines in that price range. It just takes a little extra digging/sampling and I tend to go by producer first in that decision making.

cecil77 said:

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$20 cab at HEB

HEB gets $8.

Distributor gets $7.

That leaves five bucks to make wine, buy a bottle, label, cork and capsule. Fill it, sparge it, cork it, label it and put it in a cardboard box. So the wine in that bottle cost what? 2-3 bucks? Which is why there's considerably manipulation (I could taste oak powder in that Austin Hope, at least I think I could) including IMO, added sugar.
None of those wines are produced by the label on the front. Most are "vinted by" bottled by" or "cellared by".

It's not always an indication of quality, but I look for "produced by on the label" which is the pre-fermentation term.

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Is the grocery store margin really that high?

I am told that HEB is. Maybe someone else can confirm or correct?

cecil77 said:

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I am told that HEB is. Maybe someone else can confirm or correct?

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No clue on HEB. That seems steep.

Also I would bet it's not a straight percentage of sticker price across the board for them on wine. As the wines get more expensive I'd warrant they are taking less of a cut. e.g. in your stated example $8 on a $20 bottle but maybe just $20 on a $60 bottle and not $24 (completely making numbers up).

cecil77 said:

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$20 cab at HEB

HEB gets $8.

Distributor gets $7.

That leaves five bucks to make wine, buy a bottle, label, cork and capsule. Fill it, sparge it, cork it, label it and put it in a cardboard box. So the wine in that bottle cost what? 2-3 bucks? Which is why there's considerably manipulation (I could taste oak powder in that Austin Hope, at least I think I could) including IMO, added sugar.
None of those wines are produced by the label on the front. Most are "vinted by" bottled by" or "cellared by".

It's not always an indication of quality, but I look for "produced by on the label" which is the pre-fermentation term.

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Teach me Cecil-won.
How do I tell who produces each wine and how do I know good from bad? Because I am trying to educate myself on avoiding manipulated wines.

"produced by" on the back label indicates that the grapes were fermented by the winery on the label.

All other terms, bottled, cellared, vinted, are post fermentation terms, i.e. the winery purchased wine (i.e. bulk) from somewhere. Note there is an obscure term "made by" which is also pre-fermentation but it's rare.

As to quality, honestly, it like the saying in horse racing: "The race doesn't always go to the fastest horse.... But that's the way to bet."

For wine it's "The more expensive wine isn't always better, but that's the way to bet."

Also tastes changes, 10 years ago I thought huge extracted black current pudding laced with vanilla Napa cabs were great, and spent quite bit of money on them. Now they're in the chiller likely to never be consumed, as my wife and I really don't care for them now.

So I guess the answer is "spend more and drink more". (only slightly kidding)

Speaking of that, I've got a couple cases (total) of Realm, Myriad and Carter that I wouldn't mind passing on to someone who would enjoy them. I'd just want what I paid...

Objective Aggie said:

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cecil77 said:

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$20 cab at HEB

HEB gets $8.

Distributor gets $7.

That leaves five bucks to make wine, buy a bottle, label, cork and capsule. Fill it, sparge it, cork it, label it and put it in a cardboard box. So the wine in that bottle cost what? 2-3 bucks? Which is why there's considerably manipulation (I could taste oak powder in that Austin Hope, at least I think I could) including IMO, added sugar.
None of those wines are produced by the label on the front. Most are "vinted by" bottled by" or "cellared by".

It's not always an indication of quality, but I look for "produced by on the label" which is the pre-fermentation term.

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Teach me Cecil-won.
How do I tell who produces each wine and how do I know good from bad? Because I am trying to educate myself on avoiding manipulated wines.

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Even looking at labels only tells you so much. Takes a little more getting to know the wineries or brands yourself on the side to understand where your money is going.

Also, I am guessing you mean manipulated in a way as to appeal to the masses and/or cover up poorer grape quality or tough vintages. As cecil said, generally you can get what you pay for to a certain extent. There is definitely a tapering though in bang for your buck after a bit. That all being said, I bet you can find $20 wines that are less manipulated than some $75 wines, so you need to be very specific about what you don't want in your mind, and what you mean by manipulated.

Getting on a soapbox for a minute. I appreciate wines grown/made in the vineyard, and letting the vineyard sites speak, but I also appreciate work in the cellar. I get a chuckle when winemakers espouse doing as little as possible. If that were the case, why do you even need a winemaker? Not all manipulation is created the same, and manipulation is such a strong word for some of what winemaking really is. To rack a wine or do a pump over is technically manipulation, but would you rather have wines that were cloudy from not racking or were not fully realized in terms of flavor and fruit extraction because they weren't pumped over just for the sake of not being manipulated?*

*Yes I am generalizing here and amazing wines are made with different approaches. My main point I wanted to make is that not all winemaking or manipulation is some guy dropping in some some stuff in a labcoat.

One last point, winery size is not a causation of, if I can put words in your mouth, negative manipulation, even though it might be correlated. There are wines from big producers I much prefer to similar priced wines from smaller producers. The bigger guys can make some amazing stuff at a lesser cost due to efficiencies that is just as good if not better than Harry and Sally down on their farm. Just depends on what you, the consumer, are looking for and what kind of wine you like!

cecil77 said:

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"produced by" on the back label indicates that the grapes were fermented by the winery on the label.

All other terms, bottled, cellared, vinted, are post fermentation terms, i.e. the winery purchased wine (i.e. bulk) from somewhere. Note there is an obscure term "made by" which is also pre-fermentation but it's rare.

As to quality, honestly, it like the saying in horse racing: "The race doesn't always go to the fastest horse.... But that's the way to bet."

For wine it's "The more expensive wine isn't always better, but that's the way to bet."

Also tastes changes, 10 years ago I thought huge extracted black current pudding laced with vanilla Napa cabs were great, and spent quite bit of money on them. Now they're in the chiller likely to never be consumed, as my wife and I really don't care for them now.

So I guess the answer is "spend more and drink more". (only slightly kidding)

Speaking of that, I've got a couple cases (total) of Realm, Myriad and Carter that I wouldn't mind passing on to someone who would enjoy them. I'd just want what I paid...

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I would take you up on that - I'll PM you

cecil77 said:

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Speaking of that, I've got a couple cases (total) of Realm, Myriad and Carter that I wouldn't mind passing on to someone who would enjoy them. I'd just want what I paid...

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Dang. If I didnt live halfway across the country I might jump on that.

Chipotlemonger said:

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Objective Aggie said:

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cecil77 said:

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$20 cab at HEB

HEB gets $8.

Distributor gets $7.

That leaves five bucks to make wine, buy a bottle, label, cork and capsule. Fill it, sparge it, cork it, label it and put it in a cardboard box. So the wine in that bottle cost what? 2-3 bucks? Which is why there's considerably manipulation (I could taste oak powder in that Austin Hope, at least I think I could) including IMO, added sugar.
None of those wines are produced by the label on the front. Most are "vinted by" bottled by" or "cellared by".

It's not always an indication of quality, but I look for "produced by on the label" which is the pre-fermentation term.

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Teach me Cecil-won.
How do I tell who produces each wine and how do I know good from bad? Because I am trying to educate myself on avoiding manipulated wines.

---

Even looking at labels only tells you so much. Takes a little more getting to know the wineries or brands yourself on the side to understand where your money is going.

Also, I am guessing you mean manipulated in a way as to appeal to the masses and/or cover up poorer grape quality or tough vintages. As cecil said, generally you can get what you pay for to a certain extent. There is definitely a tapering though in bang for your buck after a bit. That all being said, I bet you can find $20 wines that are less manipulated than some $75 wines, so you need to be very specific about what you don't want in your mind, and what you mean by manipulated.

Getting on a soapbox for a minute. I appreciate wines grown/made in the vineyard, and letting the vineyard sites speak, but I also appreciate work in the cellar. I get a chuckle when winemakers espouse doing as little as possible. If that were the case, why do you even need a winemaker? Not all manipulation is created the same, and manipulation is such a strong word for some of what winemaking really is. To rack a wine or do a pump over is technically manipulation, but would you rather have wines that were cloudy from not racking or were not fully realized in terms of flavor and fruit extraction because they weren't pumped over just for the sake of not being manipulated?*

*Yes I am generalizing here and amazing wines are made with different approaches. My main point I wanted to make is that not all winemaking or manipulation is some guy dropping in some some stuff in a labcoat.

One last point, winery size is not a causation of, if I can put words in your mouth, negative manipulation, even though it might be correlated. There are wines from big producers I much prefer to similar priced wines from smaller producers. The bigger guys can make some amazing stuff at a lesser cost due to efficiencies that is just as good if not better than Harry and Sally down on their farm. Just depends on what you, the consumer, are looking for and what kind of wine you like!

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I agree with all of that, thanks for taking the time.

One thing that bothers me when it comes to "minimal intervention" e.g. natural yeasts. They don't tend to talk about "natural" wine being better, but it somehow being more noble, so you should buy and drink it.

My take is that a $40 wine is typically twice as good as a $20, and an $80 is likely twice as good as that $40. The knee of the curve has, IMO, moved to about $80-100. Is a $200 twice as good as a $100, absolutely not!

FYI, Last Bottle is selling 2017 Beringer Steinhauer Ranch cab for $59 today. Solid reviews/scores for a 2017, and normally runs $150

Chipotlemonger said:

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cecil77 said:

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I am told that HEB is. Maybe someone else can confirm or correct?

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No clue on HEB. That seems steep.

Also I would bet it's not a straight percentage of sticker price across the board for them on wine. As the wines get more expensive I'd warrant they are taking less of a cut. e.g. in your stated example $8 on a $20 bottle but maybe just $20 on a $60 bottle and not $24 (completely making numbers up).

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yeah, that seems high to me, but I don't have much insight into HEB/box store costs/margin

BigAg95 said:

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FYI, Last Bottle is selling 2017 Beringer Steinhauer Ranch cab for $59 today. Solid reviews/scores for a 2017, and normally runs $150

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Are you sure? I have been burned with a mystery bottle offering before.

Pretty sure. I've never guessed wrong before. No promises though.

I'm curious, which one did you get burned on?

I forget what I thought I was buying, but I ended up receiving Stags Leap, and it wasnt much of a discount.

That stinks. They definitely often exaggerate the discounts. On the mystery bottles, when they include phrases from a review I usually Google that and find something that matches up with that and the rest of the info they provide. Haven't guessed wrong yet, but there is a first time for everything!

I've gotten some huge discounts on Kapscandy, Hamel Family, Yount Ridge, and a couple of others over the years.

The technical details certainly matches:

https://www.beringer.com/en/2017-steinhauer-ranch-cabernet-sauvignon/8033578.html

Got this LastBottle branded cab franc and it's quite nice.

LastBottle has been a great way to experiment and try some different stuff.

I considered that and didn't pull the trigger, you're making me regret it now, really enjoy a good cab franc. This was my 1st year to keep up with the marathon, bought a few, missed out on a few others. I'm a big fan of Wine Spies for trying out some vineyards or picking up value bottles. Just got my 2nd "locker" shipment, nothing I've purchased has been disappointing. Bought from WTSO for a long time and this is a much better model.