Update - Corps of Cadets

6,710 Views | 66 Replies | Last: 7 days ago by Trinity Ag
Ensign Mayo
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Just want to share the latest news for those that care to know...I'll keep it short...

A handful of years ago, Gen Joe Ramirez became Commandant of the Corps. He hired several retired military guys as Cadet Training Officers (CTO's). This is basically like a military advisor except they actually train cadets how to be "better" (to their standards) and reprimand cadets as they see fit. Basically these guys are roaming around the Quad looking for things to correct. They are higher ranked than any Zip.

Gen Ramirez retired to VP of Student Affairs and was replaced as Commandant by Gen Patrick Michaelis. Gen Michaelis continued forward with the CTO model. As we know, Gen Michaelis was recently relieved. When Gen Michaelis was relieved, most people don't know this, but Gen Joe Ramirez was also relieved of his duties as VP of Student Affairs. These 2 guys were working hand in hand to change the Corps: CTO's + DEI. Just radical changes across the board that basically got them both fired. Last time I checked, Gen Ramirez was still on the website at his position, but from what I heard, the BOR voted unanimously to fire him back in July.

In fact, I heard recently that Gen Ramirez is actually still "on the job" and has recently filed another investigation into one of the top outfits in the Corps. I just don't understand how a guy that was fired 2.5 months ago for trying to change the Corps is still pulling strings on the Quad. It's a lot of politics if you ask me. Why hasn't Gen Welsh gotten rid of these guys if the BOD wants them fired?? Maybe this should be on the politics board....

The sad part about these CTO's is that they are correcting our cadets based on their experiences in the ARMY, NAVY, AIR Force, etc. As former cadets know, we are NOT the military here. Half of us are D&C. We do things a unique way, the Aggie Corps way, and it's worked for us for 100+ years. These CTO's are changing our traditions. They won't let the kids lead themselves. Won't give them room to fail. Don't like how Aggies do it? HWY 6 Runs Both Ways Fellas!!
Tango.Mike
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There were CTOs from 2000-2004 under MG Hopgood and LTG Van Alstyne. They were there long before, too, as some of those guys had already been there 10 years when I was a fish

ETA: the Lord of the Flies, no adults allowed, "watch who you think is a good leader" is a completely inept teaching/training model. 20 year old cadets don't have any experience to build crystallized intelligence frameworks, and they haven't learned any formal education in organizations etc. Sorry that somewhere in the 80s or 90s that A&M needed the Corps to be a little more mature and developmental than just a frat with no rules
PanzerAggie06
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Tango.Mike said:

There were CTOs from 2000-2004 under MG Hopgood and LTG Van Alstyne. They were there long before, too, as some of those guys had already been there 10 years when I was a fish
So what your'e saying is that not much has changed but some new Aggie finally took notice of something and is now all worked up thinking that A&M is going to ruined because its "not like it use to be"?

The oldest and most time honored tradition at A&M is complaining about how New Army is ruining things.
bigtruckguy3500
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Concur with the others, CTOs have been around a long time. Before the Corps of Cadets hired CTOs, bulls from the Trigon used to take on that role - albeit not near as involved as CTOs. There were, unfortunately, some serious hazing incidents in the 90's that prompted the need for closer supervision. As a cadet I would also have thought it to be stupid however, looking back, we did some pretty dumb things that we thought was cool/tradition/just all in good fun.

I don't know what the gossip is you're hearing, just keep in mind that it is gossip. I remember hearing so much stuff as a cadet that we thought came from credible sources, only to find out it was total BS rumors.

Also, if there's an investigation, let there be an investigation. If you didn't do anything stupid, you have nothing to fear. We did our fair share of stupid that we did a good job of hiding. If you did a bad job hiding, then sorry?

Also, I hope this isn't related to that incident where upperclassmen were being lewd with an underclassmen.
OldArmyCT
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I've been out of the Corps (and the Army) longer than most of you have been alive so take my 2 cents worth FWIW, but I would think if Ramirez is still listed on the website as working, and is in fact still working, then his getting fired was something some Ags hoped had happened, not something that actually happened.
And a few words about Corps tradition. Some of the things that got CT's and outfits in trouble I've seen defended as "tradition" when they really weren't and in fact were not very smart. You can disagree but that's my opinion. You're completely correct that the Corps is not the military but if you're doing something as a cadet that gets you in the crosshairs of the CTO's you'd probably get in a whole lot more trouble had you done it in the military.
CT'97
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If you want the Corps of Cadets to be a frat and keep the Commandants office off the quad don't be surprised when it's treated like a frat by the Presidents office and kicked off campus when the next big scandal/hazing incident hits the news.
Texas A&M - 148 years of tradition, unimpeded by progress.
Ensign Mayo
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CTOs should be there to make sure cadets are not hazing. They are not there to train cadets and that's what they are doing.
CT'97
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If you want the Corps to be a frat, you should have just joined a frat.
Texas A&M - 148 years of tradition, unimpeded by progress.
Aggie Therapist
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EagleCamden said:

Just want to share the latest gossip with those that care to know...I'll keep it short...

A handful of years ago, Gen Joe Ramirez became Commandant of the Corps. He hired several retired military guys as Cadet Training Officers (CTO's). This is basically like a military advisor except they actually train cadets how to be "better" (to their standards) and reprimand cadets as they see fit. Basically these guys are roaming around the Quad looking for things to correct. They are higher ranked than any Zip.

Gen Ramirez retired to VP of Student Affairs and was replaced as Commandant by Gen Patrick Michaelis. Gen Michaelis continued forward with the CTO model. As we know, Gen Michaelis was recently relieved. When Gen Michaelis was relieved, most people don't know this, but Gen Joe Ramirez was also relieved of his duties as VP of Student Affairs. These 2 guys were working hand in hand to change the Corps: CTO's + DEI. Just radical changes across the board that basically got them both fired. Last time I checked, Gen Ramirez was still on the website at his position, but from what I heard, the BOR voted unanimously to fire him back in July.

In fact, I heard recently that Gen Ramirez is actually still "on the job" and has recently filed another investigation into one of the top outfits in the Corps. I just don't understand how a guy that was fired 2.5 months ago for trying to change the Corps is still pulling strings on the Quad. It's a lot of politics if you ask me. Why hasn't Gen Welsh gotten rid of these guys if the BOD wants them fired?? Maybe this should be on the politics board....

The sad part about these CTO's is that they are correcting our cadets based on their experiences in the ARMY, NAVY, AIR Force, etc. As former cadets know, we are NOT the military here. Half of us are D&C. We do things a unique way, the Aggie Corps way, and it's worked for us for 100+ years. These CTO's are changing our traditions. They won't let the kids lead themselves. Won't give them room to fail. Don't like how Aggies do it? HWY 6 Runs Both Ways Fellas!!
Tell me you were D&C without telling me you were D&C.

CTOs have been around forever and are needed. They haven't changed anything. Stop being a drama queen.

God forbid the Corps hire people that served their entire career in the military that are motivated to help shape and mold future officers.

If you didn't want to join a military organization, you should have joined a frat.
FILO505
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EagleCamden said:

CTOs should be there to make sure cadets are not hazing. They are not there to train cadets and that's what they are doing.


Cadets need at least some modicum of training if they're gonna walk around in Eisenhowers. You can like that or not, but the Corps isn't a ****in frat. If you want the Corps to be run by kids, then you don't want the Corps. You want a fraternity in khakis.

Quadding is gone, hazing is unnecessary, and I bet you think the water bottle cap push is still ok. Want men and women of leadership and character? Try getting those that have already been there train those that will be
Dynamic Pinto Beans
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EagleCamden said:

CTOs should be there to make sure cadets are not hazing. They are not there to train cadets and that's what they are doing.
D&Free here,

That is exactly what CTOs are supposed to do. They are there to train cadets in leadership (amongst other things) while the bulls are in the trigon instructing in MilSci (other branch equivalents that I forget). As a zip in my last three weeks, I was wrongfully accused (and rightfully acquitted) of hazing, when in fact I turned the evidence in to the CTOs. Even in spite of that malarkey, I know that's what they are there for. My CTO as a zip taught me a lot about leadership that I still use today. Sounds like somebody got their feelings hurt and is lashing out. Play the game by the standard and try not to take things personally.
Fly Army 97
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I didn't give my CTO the credit he deserved. I was trained early on to dislike Bulls despite their efforts to help. As an example - Once a week, my CTO would pull in company commanders for breakfast and talk leadership lessons, particularly his time as an Armor BN CDR. I resented that I wasn't with 'my' company. I look back at my attitude towards this officer and realize that he was never trying to run the company, but he was trying to help me be a better leader. Could he have framed the relationship better? Sure … could I have listened more and absorbed the life lessons he was trying to share? Absolutely.
CanyonAg77
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Quote:

CTOs have been around forever

Wrong.

A bull on the quad was like seeing a unicorn
Aggie Therapist
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Okay old army

I guess we didn't have bulls during the Spanish American War era.

CanyonAg77
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Aggie Therapist said:

Very enlightening post.
Well, you were wrong, I corrected you. Do I need to add to your embarrassment?
Aggie Therapist
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CanyonAg77 said:

Aggie Therapist said:

Very enlightening post.
Well, you were wrong, I corrected you. Do I need to add to your embarrassment?
I said CTOs have been around forever.

And you said "wrong" followed by "a bull on the quad was a unicorn".

Meaning bulls were in existence...and in fact around.
Prince_Ahmed
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CanyonAg77 said:

Aggie Therapist said:

Very enlightening post.
Well, you were wrong, I corrected you. Do I need to add to your embarrassment?
According to my FIL ('74), they were around plenty and involved in his time. Especially after Spider D was disbanded. I guess everyone has their own truth.
93Spur
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Quote:

CTOs have been around forever

Wrong.

A bull on the quad was like seeing a unicorn

-------------------------------------------------------------------


Concur. 1989-1993, only saw a Bull (Col. Johnson) for Standard of Living inspections or at formations 5x-a-week. Otherwise, had to go to Trigon to see one.
CanyonAg77
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Ask him who they worked for and where they had an office
Aggie Therapist
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93Spur said:

Quote:

CTOs have been around forever

Wrong.

A bull on the quad was like seeing a unicorn

-------------------------------------------------------------------


Concur. 1989-1993, only saw a Bull (Col. Johnson) for Standard of Living inspections or at formations 5x-a-week. Otherwise, had to go to Trigon to see one.


Seeing a bull 5 times a week at formation isn't grounds for saying they were around the quad and existed?
CanyonAg77
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Bulls are not CTOs, hope that helps
CanyonAg77
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Bulls yes

CTOs, no
Aggie Therapist
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Ohhhhhhh

My bad. Serious question, what's the difference?

I thought bull was slang for CTOS!
CanyonAg77
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Way back when I was in the Corps and dinosaurs walked the earth, the Corps was under the Department of Military Science. The head of the Army detachment was automatically Commandant of the Corps. The officers in the ROTC detachments did have authority and consulted with Corps Staff and COs regarding how the Corps was run. But it was pretty much Lord of the Flies on the Quad, unless you screwed up

It was a system that worked from Spanish-American War to Vietnam and beyond.

There were no CTOs, because the Department of Student Services did not run the Corps.

Anyone saying there were CTOs in the 1970s does not understand the definition and/or the current way the Corps is configured
Aggie Therapist
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That's both terrifying and red ass at the same time
ABATTBQ87
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CanyonAg77 said:

Way back when I was in the Corps and dinosaurs walked the earth, the Corps was under the Department of Military Science. The head of the Army detachment was automatically Commandant of the Corps. The officers in the ROTC detachments did have authority and consulted with Corps Staff and COs regarding how the Corps was run. But it was pretty much Lord of the Flies on the Quad, unless you screwed up

It was a system that worked from Spanish-American War to Vietnam and beyond.

There were no CTOs, because the Department of Student Services did not run the Corps.

Anyone saying there were CTOs in the 1970s does not understand the definition and/or the current way the Corps is configured


Same structure 10 years later.

Col Haney and Capt Brewer were the only bulls seen on a daily basis for band members. Rarely saw Col Burton or any other officers wandering around the quad
CanyonAg77
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Aggie Therapist said:

I thought bull was slang for CTOS!

It may be now.

But during the first 120 plus years of the Corps, it meant an active duty military officer, assigned to the ROTC detachment.
93Spur
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https://bookreader.library.tamu.edu/book.php?id=yb1919&getbook=Go#page/n289/mode/1up

Per the 1919 yearbook, the definition of a Bull --
Aggie Therapist
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CanyonAg77 said:

Aggie Therapist said:

I thought bull was slang for CTOS!

It may be now.

But during the first 120 plus years of the Corps, it meant an active duty military officer, assigned to the ROTC detachment.


Oh wow. Yes, it's definitely different now. I was there 2008-2012.

No one called the active duty officers who worked at the trigon and ROTC programs "bulls". They simply co-existed and trained the cadets on contract.

The CTOs/modern day bulls were not active duty. Some were retired or in the reserve. They simply roamed the quad assisting cadets and quality control.
CanyonAg77
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When my son was there, class of 2009, it seemed that the NROTC detachment was always at odds with the Corps. That confused the heck out of this old fart, as the ROTC officers were huge supporters of the Corps in my day.

It made me wonder if there were conflicts between the retired guys acting as CTOs under Department of Student Services, and the ROTC guys

I was always curious as to whether the CTOs were a retirement boondoggle for the friends of the Commandant
Aggie Therapist
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Oh I definitely felt that.

I was Army ROTC and had a contract. I felt that there was some type of power struggle with Corps vs Trigon.

I felt like I was threatened to conduct training a certain way and had my contract used as leverage in order to get me to "stay in line". This was my zip year, I was mature enough to start running my outfit the way I wanted to but Army PMS wasn't having it.

I enjoyed the actual Army much better than whatever the Corps has turned into. It was a fun experience, would do it again in a heartbeat but being a leader in the corps of cadets was a pain in the ass at times because of the current structure.
Dynamic Pinto Beans
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Aggie Therapist said:

Oh I definitely felt that.

I was Army ROTC and had a contract. I felt that there was some type of power struggle with Corps vs Trigon.

I felt like I was threatened to conduct training a certain way and had my contract used as leverage in order to get me to "stay in line". This was my zip year, I was mature enough to start running my outfit the way I wanted to but Army PMS wasn't having it.

I enjoyed the actual Army much better than whatever the Corps has turned into. It was a fun experience, would do it again in a heartbeat but being a leader in the corps of cadets was a pain in the ass at times because of the current structure.
I was also a CO during that time as well; but as I had no contract, I did not have that experience… much. There was a meeting with all the brigade COs, even D&Free that I remember that went sideways with the PMS. After that, the trigon left me alone. Most pressure was from 1SG C*****, in a good way. I always felt the pressure between the trigon and the quad was directed mostly at the CTs, and the CTOs were adaptable to the PMS, PNS and PAS. But, I was on the outside, so you probably have a better feel of it.

Btw, what outfit were you in?

Animal A, here. I'm guessing you're a Cobra.
Aggie Therapist
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Cobra C baby!!!!

Class of 12

Love 1SG C
Dynamic Pinto Beans
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Holy smokes… it's been a while, buddy.
Aggie Therapist
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Just texted you!

Might be an old number though.
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