US Army Tankers vs Russian Tankers

When I was a Tank Platoon Leader, I studied the Standard Operating Procedures (SOP) until I had it memorized. The other tank commanders were E-6s and my Platoon Seargeant was an E-7. Needless to say they had a lot more experience than me, so I had to catch up. I will illustrate the beauty of tankers executing based the SOP. If we conducted a hasty defense the tank commanders knew to find suitable terrain for cover and concealment. Then I identified three Targe Reference Points in the engagement area that were distinguishable terrain features 1000 meters from us or further. This establishes the fire pattern for each tank by SOP. The beauty of the TRP system is it simplifies painting the picture of the battlefield. If I told the other tank commanders three T-72s 2000 meters TRP3, I had quickly created and communicated a common operating picture. This methodology is so simple, quick, and accurate that I have to say it is beautiful.

Illustrated below is the TRP methodology:



TRP1..........................;;......TRP2..................................TRP3.



..............TANK1........TANK2...... TANK3..............TANK4


The fire plan for TANK1 starts firing at TRP1 and goes to the right.
The fire plan for TANK2 starts slightly right of TRP2 and moves left.
The fire plan for TANK3 starts slightly left of TRP2 and moves right.
The fire plan for TANK4 starts firing at TRP3 and moves left.

I illustrate this because perhaps some of you might be interested in tank tactics. The other reason is to illuminate a 20-year-old Russian tank commander is incapable of performing at this level, let alone unison with the other tanks. The performance and quality of the American and Russian soldiers is like night and day.

I will certainly claim not to be a military historian or an expert on Patton, but I would like to share what I know of him. First, he was a brilliant combat leader. Second, his use of available assets to accomplish the mission was genius.

Patton took over beleaguered US forces in N African in NOV 1942. Rommel, the Desert Fox, had kicked our asses all over the place. Patton was promoted to lead the US Army and had a week to turn around the US Army before a large battle with the Germans. Patton used Infantry, Field Artillery, and Tank Killers to destroy a heavy German armored force of 50 tanks at a critical pass. That was the start for the US to change the fate of the N African campaign.

In JUL 1943 Patton and his Army conducted an amphibious landing at Sicily. He was relentless and conducted two more amphibious landings to outflank the Germans. Patton and Montgomery were racing to attack the Germans who had a difficult time retreating fast enough to the Port of Mesina to escape the Allied forces. I believe by this time the Germans feared Patton the most of all Allied generals.

In early 1944 Patton was reassigned by General Eisenhower due to a couple slapping incidents in field hospitals. Patton was made commander of a fictitious Army unit in the UK which contained many inflatable vehicles and proceeded to indulge in non-stop communications to deceive the Germans into thinking an amphibious landing would be a direct channel route to Calais, France. The Germans were deceived due to the much fear and respect for Patton.

AUG 1944 Patton's Army landed in France and commenced on a 30 day march to the border of Germany. At this point we had air superiority. He used fighter planes to protect his flanks and provide reconnaissance ahead of his Army to give him great intelligence and situational awareness. Often the fighter planes engaged German formations in decisive engagements which gave Patton the flexibility of action which included surrounding the enemy and other tactics.

He had a disdain for Montgomery and often competed with him. One time Eisenhower gave all the fuel to Montgomery's army which infuriated Patton. He ordered his soldiers to steal some of the fuel from Montgomery. In another instance Patton's army was low on fuel he ordered fuel to be dispensed from vehicles to the essential vehicles in order keep up the momentum. I cannot say it enough, Patton was a brilliant commander.

DESERT STORM

It was said a retired COL and military historian suggested a large flanking movement. It was a very bold recommendation because one usually thinks about units outflanking the enemy. It did help that our Air Force and Army Aviation pounded Iraqi units in the desert.

I do believe the Iraqis made an assumption that we were not capable of maneuvering hundreds of miles in the open desert with any efficacy. Navigating hundreds of miles in the open desert was quite unthinkable. However, GPS became a huge force multiplier.

The Marines were positioned off the coast of Kuwait. It caused some Iraqi divisions to orient to the east toward the Persian Gulf. The 100-hour ground war cost the Marines five killed and 48 wounded. In that time they fought over 100 miles through occupied territory, crushed seven Iraqi divisions, destroyed over 1,600 tanks and armored vehicles, and took over 22,000 prisoners. 1st CAV did feints from the south which caused Iraqi divisions to orient to the south. The majority of Iraqi divisions were oriented to the south and the east. A good portion of our army went west then turned north-east and completely flanked and surprised the Iraqis.

Desert Storm also became a proving ground for next generation munitions, aircraft, and tanks. Our M1s hade a huge effective firing range advantage. Just for arguments sake let's say our M1 effective range is 3000 meters to the 2000 meters for the T-72. That meant we had a 1000 meter advantage and our M1s could kill with impunity. That is called stand off distance. Even more frustrating for the Iraqi T-72s is their rounds could not penetrate M1 armor.

The Republican Guard units were supposed to be elite and the true strength of the Iraqi Army. We easily annihilated them and those we did not retreated to Iraq. The Iraqis folded like a deck of cards. Once an army is in full retreat like in Desert Storm it is virtually impossible to fight effectively. I am sure their fear was compounded by the fact they faced us as we were closing in and a large portion of our army was in their deep rear area.

The logistics to build up a 500,000 person army and vehicles was immense. I read at the peak there were the equivalent of 500 semi trucks hauling stuff each day. The logistics general was being pushed around by Corps Commanders so he was given another star on the spot.

I would like to say perhaps Desert Storm tricked us into believing war is an easy endeavor.

C-5 GALAXY

This is one of the largest military planes in the world. The engines have a distinctive and loud high pitch to them. I use to live a few miles from the Clark Air Force Base (AFB), Philippines flight line. Sometimes when these huge planes landed they shook the ground at my house.

I was about 10 years of age in the Philippines. I played with two brothers whose father was a C-5 pilot. The USAF was conducting Operation Babylift for orphaned babies and babies Vietnamese parents wanted to send to the US for a chance for a better life. Clark AFB was the collection point for the babies.

On April 4, 1975 a C-5 flew from Clark AFB to Tan Son Nhut Air Base to pick up babies. At 4:15 the plane flew a few miles over the South China Sea when the rear ramp door locks failed and the plane suddenly depressurized because the rear cargo doors blew out. It caused a chain of events to the flight controls due to the damaged hydraulic systems. The plane flew back to Tan Son Nhut Air Base and it appeared the pilots had stabilized the flight of the plane. However, the plane started to descend too quickly and the pilots executed a crash landing in a giant rice paddy. It skidded a quarter of a mile and went airborne for half a mile before finally resting at its crash site.

Out of 314 people on board, the death toll included 78 children, 35 Defense Attach Office employees, and 11 U.S. Air Force personnel; there were 176 survivors. All of the surviving orphans were eventually flown to the United States. Upon hearing about the crash, the Clark AFB community was stunned and saddened. We all had a vested interest in Operation Babylift. I don't know if my friend's father was the pilot who died, one survived, but the family was whisked away to the US in a week. We mourned the deaths and the fact the C-5 Galaxy Tail # 68-0218 would never make her way back to the home base, Clark AFB. Perhaps over the steamy jungles in Vietnam a C-5 Galaxy is flying on an eternal mission because it can't get to its home station.

These are the Principles of War the US Military adheres too.

These are the principles:

Objective Direct every military operation toward a clearly defined, decisive and attainable objective.

Offensive Seize, retain, and exploit the initiative. Offensive action is the most effective and decisive way to attain a clearly defined common objective.

Mass Mass the effects of overwhelming combat power at the decisive place and time.

Economy of Force Employ all combat power available in the most effective way possible; allocate minimum essential combat power to secondary efforts.

Maneuver Place the enemy in a position of disadvantage through the flexible application of combat power.

Unity of Command For every objective, seek unity of command and unity of effort.

Security Never permit the enemy to acquire unexpected advantage. Security enhances freedom of action by reducing vulnerability to hostile acts, influence, or surprise.

Surprise Strike the enemy at a time or place or in a manner for which he is unprepared. Surprise can decisively shift the balance of combat power.

Simplicity Prepare clear, uncomplicated plans and concise orders to ensure thorough understanding. Everything in war is very simple, but the simple thing is difficult.

Great Stories Al!

BigJim49 AustinNowDallas said:

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Great Stories Al!

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I want to include military paradigms and concepts. I am not trying to show off. Perhaps I can help people understand warfare better.

There lived an 1800s Austrian military theorist who I admire. He opined wars have a trinity of three imprtant components. They are:

- Rational approach of the government.
- Military acumen.
- Passion of the people.

I will apply the Trinity to the American Revolution:
- The Continental Congress supported the people and the Continental Army.
- Eventually Washington and the Continental Army prevailed.
- The vast majority of the Americans were impassioned to support independence and it included enlisting to fight.

I will apply the Trinity to Afghanistan:
- It was said the Afghan government was very corrupt.
- The Afghan forces sucked big time.
- The Afghans did not have the requisite passion to make a difference in the war. We tried to win their hearts and minds but that was an utter failure.

I will apply to Ukraine:
- Zelenski has come across as a strong leader for the country.
- The Ukrainians are doing the best that they can with the weapons the Western countries have given to them. Precision weapons are keeping them in the war.
- There is no doubt the Ukrainians hate the Russians for many reasons. The people are helping the military by enlisting and becoming partisan fighters. The Russian brutality has increased Ukrainian passion and hate.

MY CONCEPT OF 'WORLD CLASS":

I was fortunate to serve in the army for 20 years. I started in helicopters and later road tanks. I dabbled in National Disaster Planning and budgeting. The greatest honor was taking care of the soldiers. I rolled up my sleeves and indulged in tasks with the soldiers that no Army Officers did. I showed them I was not too good to endeavor with them.

I gave them my vision. We will provide World Class" in our unit's missions. When they accomplished that. My mind was thinking how I can thank and reward them. Of course, saying thank you was appropriate, but I wanted to be "World Class" at building up their morale and thanking them.

I laid on the couch in my office and closed my eyes to brainstorm. I had an epiphany and drove to the airfield to talk with helicopter pilots. I told them I was in a special operations helicopter unit that all army helicopter pilots were cognizant of. That opened the door for me. I asked will you fly my soldiers around? They smiled and consented. So, my soldiers went flying in Blackhawks. I gave certificates for two large pizzas to the pilots every time the soldiers flew with them. I had a good racket going on.

I prepared BBQ every Thursday afternoon. I am a great cook when I want to be. One soldier said sir I am tired of steaks. For our Christmas party the door prizes started with a TV and a boom box. The prizes became cheaper, but they were still quality items. One prize was a framed and autographed picture of me. Of course, the winner pretended to like the prize. I said look at the back. There was a certificate for a 4-day weekend.

One of the greatest honors in serving was taking care of the sons and daughters of this country. Sometimes there was no compromise with what I did for the soldiers. I trained them, guided them to become better people, took care of them, provided overhead cover, and sometimes I was the conduit for their personal and professional progress.

I pleasantly found out if I loved the soldiers and they trusted me, they would go to hell and back with me. I would do it all over again.

DELTA TROOP, 2/17TH, CAV 101ST VIETNAM VETERANS' REUNION.

Just a little history about the 101st in WWII. I read the training for the 101st in WWII was so tough only the cream of the crop was taken by the division. 90% of the soldiers washed out. Those soldiers were unable to meet the physical and or mental challenges. The training regime was intensely arduous, but those who succeeded trained and pushed each other. They shared stories about themselves, families, and pictures to further cement bonds. In the end, the 101st was filled with soldiers with the mettle to keep fighting despite the broad spectrum of circumstances. It was no ordinary Infantry Division.

My FIL was a 101st Vietnam War veteran and attended an Infantry Troop reunion, and I was graciously invited as well. Little did I know I would witness the extreme spectrum of emotions from elation to grief. The unit sustained a high casualty rate in Vietnam as evidenced in the roll call at the start of the banquet. It was a memorable event and there is a reason for that.

At the banquet I sensed some kind of energy swirling and flittering in the air. I could not see it or hear it, but I definitely sensed it. When I perused the large room, it was like a shotgun blast. Some looked very successful and adjusted, but on the other end some of the veterans looked like they had a tough life. Who knows the demons and battles they keep fighting if at all? I thought about their suffering. What did the war do to them? What did the country do to them? How many escaped hell? I just felt interminably sad.

After the roll call, I witnessed the dam bursting and the veterans' emotional truths came rushing out like a random force of nature. They laughed about the funny experiences and cried as they talked about Vietnam, and those who did not make it back alive; or those who partially returned. This was the most truthful and honest representation of unbounded grief I had ever witnessed. Crying was allowed. There were thousands of tears. My eyes misted. I will always have a strategic spot in my heart for Vietnam Veterans. For those who did not make it back alive, a chariot waited for them, for one final ride.

I think your heart is in the right place, but you're going to cause trouble for TexAgs if you keeping copying these stories without attribution

In the Team Building vein, the below is how a Battalion Commander and CSM created an awesome command climate:

From '97-'99, I was in 1-67 AR, 4ID when it was at Ft Hood. The Commander was LTC Gold. Once per month the entire battalion was brought into the theater for monthly briefings and to get some mandatory training out of the way. All S sections gave their briefing and the Chaplain usually did the mandatory training. After all the "official" stuff was done, we got down to the fun stuff.

1-67 had the nickname Death Dealers. Well, the Commander and CSM would throw out 5x7 envelopes with each envelope having one letter in "Dealers", so seven envelopes were thrown out. The Soldiers who caught them were brought up on stage and lined up in order holding their envelope spelling out Dealers. One at a time each Soldier opened the envelope and there were free trips to Austin and San Antonio, sports tickets, free meals at all the good restaurants and so forth, and at times they gave out free mountain bikes. One of the envelopes contained a free framed and signed DA photo of the CSM, and 7 days extra duty, which of course they never had to pull. It was great fun. After the first time, Soldiers would fight over the envelopes as they were tossed out. We loved these events. The Commander and CSM spent a lot of time interacting with business owners talking them into giving the free items for the event, and they were invited to attend to see what was going on.

During tank gunnery, LTC Gold would have shirts made saying "The Old Man Kicked My Ass". If his tank outshot yours during gunnery, he would bring the TCs up on stage and present them all with this t-shirt, which means he was presenting well over 50 t-shirts after a gunnery. The cool thing is, if you outshot him, you were able to present him with a shirt that said "I Kicked The Old Mans Ass" and he would wear it during PT at times. 1-67 did not have the best reputation at the time, but we had a pretty good esprit de corp within the battalion.

CanyonAg77 said:

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I think your heart is in the right place, but you're going to cause trouble for TexAgs if you keeping copying these stories without attribution

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I am not copying anything except doctrine, paradigms, and principles of war. In fact I tend to expound on them. If I write an essay, it's because I have researched it. I like military history and how some paradigms explain the past and the present. I did not know much about the Pacific War thus I researched it as an amateur military historian.

clarythedrill said:

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In the Team Building vein, the below is how a Battalion Commander and CSM created an awesome command climate:

From '97-'99, I was in 1-67 AR, 4ID when it was at Ft Hood. The Commander was LTC Gold. Once per month the entire battalion was brought into the theater for monthly briefings and to get some mandatory training out of the way. All S sections gave their briefing and the Chaplain usually did the mandatory training. After all the "official" stuff was done, we got down to the fun stuff.

1-67 had the nickname Death Dealers. Well, the Commander and CSM would throw out 5x7 envelopes with each envelope having one letter in "Dealers", so seven envelopes were thrown out. The Soldiers who caught them were brought up on stage and lined up in order holding their envelope spelling out Dealers. One at a time each Soldier opened the envelope and there were free trips to Austin and San Antonio, sports tickets, free meals at all the good restaurants and so forth, and at times they gave out free mountain bikes. One of the envelopes contained a free framed and signed DA photo of the CSM, and 7 days extra duty, which of course they never had to pull. It was great fun. After the first time, Soldiers would fight over the envelopes as they were tossed out. We loved these events. The Commander and CSM spent a lot of time interacting with business owners talking them into giving the free items for the event, and they were invited to attend to see what was going on.

During tank gunnery, LTC Gold would have shirts made saying "The Old Man Kicked My Ass". If his tank outshot yours during gunnery, he would bring the TCs up on stage and present them all with this t-shirt, which means he was presenting well over 50 t-shirts after a gunnery. The cool thing is, if you outshot him, you were able to present him with a shirt that said "I Kicked The Old Mans Ass" and he would wear it during PT at times. 1-67 did not have the best reputation at the time, but we had a pretty good esprit de corp within the battalion.

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Wow what a coincidence. I served around the same time as you did in the battalion. What he taught me was to have fun and recognize soldiers and support sections. One time I had staff duty and noticed around 2000 hrs soldiers milling around on the baracks. I asked if there was a party going on to which they replied the AC in the barracks was broken. I went into the barracks and noticed the temperature was around 90 degrees. I told LTC Gold about the AC and how the soldiers suffered. He looked at me and said WTF am I supposed to do about it. A day later I saw him leading the Division Commander on a tour of the barracks. It was fixed quickly. I was so damn proud of him. I wished he would have gotten his star. He deserved it.

So the story about the widow of the helicopter pilot is yours?

And you were also there whe the German sniper surrendered in WWII?

I go by memory based on researching or readings. Man you folks really know how to take the wind out the sails. I am accused of writing about a widow which was not factual, but it is. Now you are accusing me of plagiarism. What next? If I write Washington avoided the British Army in 1776 because the Continental Army was significantly smaller, but crossed the Delaware River to attack the Hessians on Christmas Day, then I am plagiarising as well? I can't write about it because I was not there? lol

When I write about Carl Von Clausewitz Trinity am I plagiarising too? Oh I can't write about the Principles of War because I did not give credit to the military. Some of you need to stop wearing women's underwear due to such fragility. Unbelievable. You are good at taking away the enjoyment out of this process.

I am remiss for not crossing the Delaware River with Washington.



TURNING IT AROUND

America owes a huge debt of gratitude to George Washington for his role of commanding the Continental Army and serving as the president. Many military historians consider him to be the finest revolutionary commander in world history. He recruited and tried to retain soldiers during harvest season or when morale was significantly low. Washington worked diligently and tirelessly to keep the morale up despite the pronounced vicissitudes of the war. It was through his volition an extensive spy network for intelligence was established. He did his best to clothe, feed, and pay the soldiers. His duties included minute details like how to set up camps with proper cooking and latrine facilities. Despite the fact he endeavored in the prodigious facets of sustaining his army, he was also the tactical and strategic commander.

Washington had several thousand soldiers early in the war. However, as the war progressed, his army dwindled to a few thousand as battles were lost, morale was low, and provisions were terrible. Often times Washington avoided battles with the British due to their significant numerical advantage. There was a period when Washington avoided becoming decisively engaged with the British Army. The consequence of decisively engaged means it would reduce his ability to conduct freedom of movement or retreat.

In August of 1776, the Continental Army's situation was dire and immensely tenuous. The Continental Army was surrounded on 3 sides by the British and the fourth side by water at the Battle of Brooklyn. If the British commanders were more aggressive, they could have captured the whole Continental Army and ended the war. Instead, the British Army chose to take methodical course of action.

The British dug trenches to move closer to the American lines to preclude the necessity of maneuvering in the open ground. Washington ordered every flat bottomed boat or sloop requisitioned to ferry his army to safety across the Hudson River. The army built visible campfires to trick the British and commenced the retreat through a narrow corridor. Washington ordered soldiers not to speak during the retreat. By sunrise half of the army still had yet to escape, but the situation appeared precarious as the dark would not cloak their retreat. Perhaps divine providence interceded as a supernatural event occurred. A thick fog of incredible proportions hid Washington's retreat. It was recounted the visibility through the fog was no more than six feet. Washington saved his army. The retreat ensured the survival of the army and America's capability to continue waging war.

In December 1776 many enlistment terms were realized, and the obligations were executed. The Continental Army shrunk dramatically due to this circumstance. Washington did his best to retain the soldiers, but many left because of the privations, low morale, and inability to believe America could win the war. However, historians illuminate a facet of the remaining soldiers; perhaps the general quality of the army improved as it was comprised by soldiers who wanted to keep fighting. They had a don't quit attitude.

On December 25, 1776, the Continental Army requisitioned all the boats despite the protests by the owners. Washington commenced crossing the Delaware River that night. They also ferried artillery and horses. The soldiers marched 8 miles in blizzard conditions. The snow turned red because some of the soldiers did not have shoes or boots. A few soldiers froze to death on the march to Trenton. To make a long story short, the Continental Army proceeded to win at the Battle of Trenton. The Hessians were caught completely off guard. A few days later the Continental Army won at the Battle of Princeton.

These victories were seminal moments for the fledgling country. It gave the confidence to the country the Continental Army could defeat British forces, boosted morale of the soldiers, and more Americans enlisted into the army. Winning battles had further strategic impacts. The Continental Army eventually became larger than the British Army as the war evolved into the final stages. It gave France the confidence to invest in the Revolutionary War. France wanted reassurance America had the capability of winning the war.

This is a classic case of turning around events when the circumstances were immensely dire. I really don't know how George Washington pulled off the victory considering his infinite burdens and responsibilities. How do you motivate soldiers to march in the snow without boots and shoes to include all the other privations they experienced?

REVOLUTION IN MILITARY AFFAIRS (RMA)
The US military has developed or is developing Revolution In Military Affairs (RMA). RMAs can be a new weapon, vehicle, technology, or doctrine that will give us an advantage in the next wars. The American RMAs in WWII were P-51s, atomic bombs, aircraft carriers, and Patton. lol

Here are current RMAs that have been developed and these are just my opinions:

- Smart Cluster Bombs: Right now we have the ability to drop large bombs that will spit out perhaps 40 cluster bombs that will actively seek armored vehicles to destroy them. This is a tremendous amount of accurate firepower.
- Phalanx System: This automated weapons system can be found on ships and around bases. It can shoot 4,500 20mm rounds at a muzzle velocity of 3600 feet/sec. It can shoot down missiles, drones, planes, mortars, and other projectiles.
- Israeli Trophy System: Our M1 tanks are becoming more vulnerable to anti tank weapons. The US Army will install the Trophy Systems on our tanks. When a missile or projectile is few meters from the tanks, the Trophy System will essentially shoot a shotgun blast to defeat the threat.
- Drones are used for surveillance and delivering munitions. I read Turkish drones destroyed 100 Russian made tanks in Syria. The US is fond of using drones to kill high value targets (people).

We are working on these possible RMAs:

- Laser Weapons: There are many technical challenges, but we are developing more powerful laser weapons. I think we have the ability to shoot down drones with laser weapons now.
- Rail Guns: Huge technical challenges but we are still trying to develop that technology.
- Artillery: Historically artillery has been an area weapon or an indirect weapons system. The goal for artillery is to land rounds in the proximity of the targets. Some of the current focus is turning artillery rounds into smart or guided rounds for precision. The US Army recently used a 155 Howitzer round to shoot down a missile. Perhaps we can shoot accurately at targets 50 miles away.
- Communications and Networking: I really don't know what this domain is called, but we are working on domain because it is crucial in future wars as there will be infinitely more inputs, outputs, and solutions.
- Hypersonic Missiles: China, Russia, and the US are racing to develop missiles that can fly at Mach 5.
- Robots and unmanned vehicles.
- IA
- Hypersonic missiles that are Mach 5+. At minimum that is one mile per second.
IMO the many precision weapons Ukraine is using collectively is an RMA. The quantity of these weapons are giving a smaller military a fighting chance in a conventional war. Ukraine is a proving ground for many precision weapons. The war proves the utility of precision weapons vs the many imprecise weapons Russian has. I have no doubt that the US has the technology to destroy Russian armies quickly.

STRATEGIC BOMBINGS IN WWII

It is said that that strategic bombings of German industrial centers were ineffective due to the fact the bombers flew at such high altitudes. The Allies determined it was easier to just level cities. I think the decision to bomb German cities was made easier considering the Germans were committed to conducting total war. Germany bombed English cities, but it was nothing compared to the destruction meted out by the Allied forces. When the English learned about the bombings and the devastation of German cities, they were aghast at the destruction.

I read that the bombings were so intense they created their own extremely hot weather systems with winds way too fast to avoid. There was the sound of the rush of the wind and crackling of fires. Sometimes people were instantaneously turned into blobs of fat and charred bodies were stacked like cords of wood on the streets. Sometimes underground bomb bunkers were not impervious to the destruction as they turned into ovens. Japan experienced this as well. Most of the Japanese houses were almost completely wood structures.

I was stationed at Kadena at that time. I was watching a softball game when the SPs and the base commander stopped the game and pulled a guy off the field. We found out later his wife was on that flight.

Yes, the Dresden bombing was like that. More casualties (short term, at least) than dropping the 2 big bombs on Japan. (that number is in dispute, but anyways, it was incredibly destructive.)

Read a little bit of Vonnegut in Slaughterhouse 5. He was there.

Concerning LeMay, he said that if the US didn't win the war, they'd (the US leadership) would be prosecuted as war criminals.

Hey Nav said:

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Yes, the Dresden bombing was like that. More casualties (short term, at least) than dropping the 2 big bombs on Japan. (that number is in dispute, but anyways, it was incredibly destructive.)

Read a little bit of Vonnegut in Slaughterhouse 5. He was there.

Concerning LeMay, he said that if the US didn't win the war, they'd (the US leadership) would be prosecuted as war criminals.

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I read the Japanese cities that were firebombed suffered mightily as well.

If my memory is correct I think the largest strategic bombing runs in Europe had over a thousand bombers. That is unreal. I can't imagine seeing over a thousand bombers and fighter escorts.

Retusaf94 said:

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I was stationed at Kadena at that time. I was watching a softball game when the SPs and the base commander stopped the game and pulled a guy off the field. We found out later his wife was on that flight.

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The Baby Lift C-5?

Yes

Wiki says 8th AF sent 572 bombers on 17 April 1945 to Dresden.

If you scroll down the article, the Brits put a crap load of bombs on Berlin, among all their other contributions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

This web page says 1088 missions by the Brits and Americans on Feb 13/14 and then 8th AF flew another 211 missions the next day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

One thing to remember the Lancasters flew night missions and the Mighty Eighth flew daytime.

Beat the hell out of Germany with tremendous casualties for our guys.

Retusaf94 said:

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Yes

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Another poster on another site said that event was the seminal moment for him because he lost a buddy. Live every day as if it is your last.

Hey Nav said:

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Wiki says 8th AF sent 572 bombers on 17 April 1945 to Dresden.

If you scroll down the article, the Brits put a crap load of bombs on Berlin, among all their other contributions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

This web page says 1088 missions by the Brits and Americans on Feb 13/14 and then 8th AF flew another 211 missions the next day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

One thing to remember the Lancasters flew night missions and the Mighty Eighth flew daytime.

Beat the hell out of Germany with tremendous casualties for our guys.

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Thank you for the specificity. There is so much to those bombings like the initial doctrine of bombers not needing fighter escorts and the great fear of surviving in the 8th Air Force bombing campaign. The narrative can segue into the advent of the P-51s as a Revolution in Military Affairs and its role in the US attaining air superiority. IMO the Russians are trying to replicate the strategic bombings of cities.

I find military history fascinating. Sometimes military history can explain the present. I like military history in the respect it forces me to research which invariably makes me more informed. I have written military history essays just for fun. I feel fortunate that I was given the opportunity to delve into the study of military history as my professional development in the army.

I started this thread because I know I am not the only one who enjoys military history. It is also a venue for me to learn from others. I hope this is a good venue for non-military people to learn military history and the doctrines, paradigms, and lessons learned. I hope I don't come across as a charlatan. That is not my intention.

I posted the information below a couple days ago. CNN just published an article about resistance warfare or Resistance Operating Concept (ROC) in Ukraine. Essentially US Special Operations has gone back to its roots and trained Ukrainian civilians in irregular warfare. This is a classic case of a military paradigm (The Trinity) supporting or describing current events. I have read Ukranian civilians have:

- Poisoned fruits and food.
- Destroyed crops to prevent the Russian harvesting.
- Provided intelligence.
- Volunteered as medical personnel.
- Participated in the kinetic war.
- I will make a strong assumption they help the Ukrainian Army with terrain and route recons.
- Provided logistics and supplies to the Ukranian military.
- Used information for the benefit of the country. Information can be a powerful tool. Thomas Payne wrote essays that were disseminated all over the country that impassioned Americans during the Revolutionary War. He was a driving force.

I am sure this is just the tip of the iceberg. Essentially the Russians are fighting a conventional and guerrilla war.


How Ukraine is using resistance warfare developed by the US to fight back against Russia - CNNPolitics








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25AUG22

There lived an 1800s Austrian military theorist who I admire. He opined wars have a trinity of three imprtant components. They are:

- Rational approach of the government.
- Military acumen.
- Passion of the people.

I will apply the Trinity to the American Revolution:
- The Continental Congress supported the people and the Continental Army.
- Eventually Washington and the Continental Army prevailed.
- The vast majority of the Americans were impassioned to support independence and it included enlisting to fight.

I will apply the Trinity to Afghanistan:
- It was said the Afghan government was very corrupt.
- The Afghan forces sucked big time.
- The Afghans did not have the requisite passion to make a difference in the war. We tried to win their hearts and minds but that was an utter failure.

I will apply to Ukraine:
- Zelenski has come across as a strong leader for the country.
- The Ukrainians are doing the best that they can with the weapons the Western countries have given to them. Precision weapons are keeping them in the war.
- There is no doubt the Ukrainians hate the Russians for many reasons. The people are helping the military by enlisting and becoming partisan fighters. The Russian brutality has increased Ukrainian passion and hate.

This could be a game changer in Ukraine, but we won't give it to them. The Power of the CBU-105 Cluster Bomb in Action to Destroy 40 Tanks With One Shot : DCS World - YouTube

Red1 said:

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This could be a game changer in Ukraine, but we won't give it to them. The Power of the CBU-105 Cluster Bomb in Action to Destroy 40 Tanks With One Shot : DCS World - YouTube

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Pretty cool, but there is no way those small bombs would destroy a tank. By our doctrine it takes, if my memory is correct, over 50 artillery rounds to defeat a tank unless there is a direct hit on the top. Those small bombletts do not each have the explosive power of a 155 round. Color me extremely skeptical on this.

Now, if you want to talk about its effects against light infantry, then this would be extremely effective.

clarythedrill said:

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Red1 said:

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This could be a game changer in Ukraine, but we won't give it to them. The Power of the CBU-105 Cluster Bomb in Action to Destroy 40 Tanks With One Shot : DCS World - YouTube

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Pretty cool, but there is no way those small bombs would destroy a tank. By our doctrine it takes, if my memory is correct, over 50 artillery rounds to defeat a tank unless there is a direct hit on the top. Those small bombletts do not each have the explosive power of a 155 round. Color me extremely skeptical on this.

Now, if you want to talk about its effects against light infantry, then this would be extremely effective.

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They are designed to hit the top of tanks.

U-BOAT COUNTERMEASURES

In WWII U-boats were taking a heavy toll on Allied shipping and convoys across the Atlantic Ocean. The British started a project to address this issue. At the center was the project manager, Mr. Gilbert Roberts, and female sailors known as the Women's Royal Naval Service (WRNS, better known as Wrens).

Mr. Roberts a retired naval officer was summoned to work on the U-Boat problem the allies faced. He reported to Sir Percy Noble who was the British Defense Minister. Noble was less than cordial with Roberts because he thought Roberts did not represent the best leader for this project.

Roberts approach was to create a large "Battleship" game using a large floor as the area of operations. He had red and blue teams. In some of the wargaming the two teams worked independently and did not know how the other team would act. Roberts also played out actual naval battles. The seminal moment was replicating a battle where a ship in the middle of the convoy was attacked.

The question he asked is how did the U-boats attack the center of the convoy, and he engaged the Wrens. That fateful night Roberts and the Wrens wargamed the scenario all night until the break of dawn. There was a collective interest and excitement as they tried to solve the mystery. After many hours the Wrens came up with the assumption the only way a U-boat can attack the center of the convoy was by surfacing to attain the requisite speed to catch up to the convoy from the rear, where it was lightly defended and monitored. The U-Boat fired its torpedo's in the dark and submerged.

They came up with the countermeasure. Defend the the whole perimeter of the convoy with escort ships. Listen for U-Boat radio traffic and use radars to detect and attack the U-Boats. The allied navy also used naval aviation from air craft carriers to engage U-boats.

Mr. Roberts asked Sir Percy Noble and his staff to his location for a demonstration. It was said Sir Noble was not impressed by seeing convoys, U-boats, and the ocean replicated on the large floor and acted annoyed. As Mr. Roberts started and continued the brief, Sir Percy Noble became more interested and was stunned in amazement at the conclusion of the brief. That same day he sent out a message to change the convoy SOPs. The assumptions were dead on.

I was a former Army Tank Officer so I will discuss the attributes of M1A2 tanks. I think perhaps some of you might be interested.

Notice how relatively quiet these tanks are. The suspension is so good that we call it the Cadillac ride. That is the reasons that the tanks can travel so quickly on relatively smooth terrain that would be rough for other vehicles.

It has two types of rounds:
- HEAT rounds uses a shaped charge that creates a jet stream of liquid metal that is traveling at ~25k miles an hour.
- Sabot rounds are kinetic rounds. They are darts perhaps 1.5 feet long, 1.5 inches in diameter, weigh around 20 lbs. and travel at one mile per second.

The tank can hit a moving target while the tank is moving because of a ballistic computer. The computer requires inputs like wind velocity and direction, barometric pressure, humidity, ammunition lot number.

The engine is a 1500 HP turbine engine. It can travel 45 MPH and 60 MPH if the governors are removed.

It weighs around 70 tons.

The gunner has a 7.62 M240 machine gun that is linked to the ballistic computer. As the tank commander I had a 50-caliber machine gun.

We are starting to put Israeli made Trophy Systems on the tanks. The system detects incoming rounds and shoots a large shotgun blast at the round a few meters from the tank.

The effective range is 3000 meters, but I think the classified range is further.

Many of our tactics are similar to infantry tactics but with much more speed. That is a challenge.

I randomly stumbled upon this.


GENEROSITY OF AMERICANS AFTER WWII

Millions of Americans opened their hearts and wallets to pay for $10 care packages of food to be sent to impoverished and hungry Europeans after WWII. In today's terms that would be $130. Hundreds of millions were sent to Europe. Some families had perhaps a loaf of bread to eat for a week and those food packages were a godsend.

It was said a German family was in dire need for food when they received their first food package. They were reluctant to open the box because we were their enemy. Eventually they opened the package much to their elation. It was like Christmas.

Care packages were a valuable lifeline and prevented millions from dying due to the lack of food, and systems were in place for families to get the packages on a regular basis. School children received smaller care packages of food on a regular basis at schools. Sometimes girls would get a doll in their package. I can't imagine the goodwill we created. It speaks volumes of Americans after WWII.

These are some of the items in the care packages. The program is a testament to the generosity of Americans and often influenced how Europeans thought of us.



one pound (450 g) of beef in broth

one pound (450 g) of steak and kidneys

8 ounces (230 g) of liver loaf

8 ounces (230 g) of corned beef

12 ounces (340 g) of luncheon loaf (like Spam)

8 ounces (230 g) of bacon

two pounds (910 g) of margarine

one pound (450 g) of lard

one pound (450 g) of fruit preserves

one pound (450 g) of honey

one pound (450 g) of raisins

one pound (450 g) of chocolate

two pounds (910 g) of sugar

8 ounces (230 g) of powdered eggs

two pounds (910 g) of whole-milk powder

two pounds (910 g) of coffee

UKRAINE

We have sent the Army V Corps HQs Foward to Poland with 635 staff members to establish a permanent base. Due to the proximity to Ukraine, it leads me to believe the 3 Star Corps Commander will provide much needed coordination between all the disparate entities to support Ukraine. A tremendous amount of coordination must be conducted. For example, when we give Ukraine new weapons systems they must be trained. We must monitor the munitions and military assets to ensure Ukraine does not reach a critical level of shortages. A plan must be in place to quickly resupply Ukraine. His staff will include:

- Chief of Personnel.
- Chief of Intelligence.
- Chief of operations, plans, future operations.
- Chief of Logistics.
- Chief of Communications and Signal.
- Chief of Budget.

All these Chiefs are COLs who are at the cusp of becoming general officers and will help guide the Corps Commander. However, only a few will become general officers.

I will make the strong assumption V Corps is helping Ukraine with Intelligence, Logistics, and Plans. The general mission of V Corps is to counter Russian military influence in the region. Helping Ukraine is a necessary task to accomplish that mission.

This is not in the news in regard to drilling down the V Corps' mission.

Also, our generals have a lot more experience than the Russian generals.

This is my two cents.