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New AC System

7,976 Views | 62 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by Ribeye-Rare
Proposition Joe
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So quick rundown - we live in an old home with an old A/C and we've basically accepted it will need to be replaced in the next few years. With the Texas 105 degree days it gets us to 68 at night but by mid-day 76 is about as low as it gets. The unit is constantly running from 6am-on for the most part.

Sunday morning we awoke to the house at 77 -- the coolant line had frozen. I shut the unit off to let it thaw and after a few hours kicked it back on, and while it got us down a degree from 77->76 (do moreso to the "cool" day Texas had yesterday), it didn't get below that. No freezing during the day but on inspection before bed I saw it starting to freeze again so we cut it off for the night.

Our A/C company came out the next morning (Stark). From what I can tell, they make their money off of being available, but high markup. I don't know that for sure, just the impression I get. They came out last year to replace the compressor and gave us the sales pitch for a new unit, but since we aren't sure how much longer we are going to be in this house (plans to keep it and rent it out), we are trying to hold out any big purchases.

They looked at things and basically said the coolant line is freezing because we're way low on refrigerant and that's why that even though it's cooling, it's not cooling well. It's a R-22 unit, so he said prices are obviously going to be high per pound. I believe he quoted me in the neighborhood of $4k+ to replenish the unit with recycled R22, but I may have mis-heard. I also understand that they'd much prefer go the full replacement route so any quote on that is going to be marked up even more. It's a 7 or 9 pound refrigerant capacity on the unit.

So - we're comparing prices of new units and kind of running the math on how much we'd likely save in our energy bill with a unit that is actually efficient. But obviously the costs of these units is pretty daunting.

Looking for some advice/suggestions. Bite the bullet and stop patching a system that will just need more work in 6 months, or go for a freon fix that should get us through this summer and allow us 8 or so months of non-misrable weather to really put some price shopping into our options for the future?

Is the freon option even really an option? Is it insanely difficult to get recycled U22, or just expensive (I'm seeing $100-$150lb numbers online, but no sure if thats nationwide or just "if you can find it").
TruService HVAC
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I won't speak about their pricing but I will give you my thoughts on what you've shared.
R22 is expensive and hard to find. Your national averages are where I would expect the sale price to be.
Your system is leaking. Even at $145/lb that still could be $1,200 plus labor to charge it and there are no guarantees you'll make it to Friday much less 8 months.
I would encourage you to go the route of a new system unless you're just flush with cash and really like supporting your AC guy ;-)
I'm all for repairing systems but unfortunately it's gotten to the point with r22 that it no longer makes financial sense to throw good money away. We keep one drum of new r22 on the truck under lock and key and we really are careful how we go about selling it.
Bad news is r410a is getting phased out and has increased in price a few hundred percent the last couple of years too.

Good luck
htxag09
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I'll let some of the AC industry experts comment on your technical questions.

But, seems you don't trust your AC company. First step I'd take is find an AC company I trust more. If what they come back with is similar cost and recommendation wise, I'd probably just bite the bullet and replace it.

Also, it obviously won't be a 100% return, but a new AC will help in selling your house. I'd guess most buyers would look at an old (don't think you mentioned actual age) AC just like a roof and either immediately take that off the price or wait for an inspection then use it to claw more back when the temp differential isn't adequate.

If you rent out your house, a new AC will allow some peace of mind as you're less likely to worry about a 8 pm call on Friday from tenants because the AC is out.
Proposition Joe
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Thank you both for the response. I think it's not as much that I don't trust my A/C guy in what they are telling me is the best option, but more that I think when it comes to those options they are significantly overpriced.

But if I've got an HVAC guy telling me the R22 is just throwing away money at this point, and then htxag09 bringing up that whether we sell the house or rent it out that the A/C still has value, I think we'll prolly bite the bullet and go with a new unit. Really just wanted to make it one more summer!
tgivaughn
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Keep it another year or so
http://rb.gy/ijho8

As you can afford it, also add in attic
http://rb.gy/bk1wu

http://rb.gy/4ix2s
Ten words or less ... a goal unattainable
88agswin
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Putting R22 freon even the knock off is a waste of time and money plain and simple. I won't even try to buy a bottle of it because what do you think happens when you put $1k or more of freon in the unit and it's gone in 1 day...We can tell people all day long and we always do that when we put freon in there is no guarantee how long it will last yet they always come back and say we never told them so. Due to that I have it on every single invoice that has freon added to it that it is in writing that there are no guarantees. It always happens where people are in a major pinch for a graduation or some event and they say put it in. I have had them calling a cussing us out the next day because it's hot in the house.

I have told them a thousand times that I have loaner window units that I will let them use for free until we can install the system....and yet some still want to roll the dice....which is why I don't stock it anymore. I would rather have you pissed off at someone else than take your money and then have you mad at me when it's hot in a day or so.
Proposition Joe
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Good info! Much appreciated.
Mathguy64
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I have 2 pony tanks of R22 from way back in the days when you could buy it. Old green DuPont ones. My old unit would periodically need a boost so I would pull them out for the tech and save the hit to the bill.

I still have about 5 lbs left. Unfortunately my old unit gave up the ghost 2 years ago so the R22 just sits there. I tried to sell it to the AC company installing my new unit but they couldn't take it.
kyle field 94
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I am not sure of the cost difference or application or whether it would even work, but has anyone added spray foam insulation to the under side of their roof. How does this compare to blown in insulation or the pink rolls layed on top?
88agswin
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kyle field 94 said:

I am not sure of the cost difference or application or whether it would even work, but has anyone added spray foam insulation to the under side of their roof. How does this compare to blown in insulation or the pink rolls layed on top?
open cell foam R value is 3.5 per inch x 4 inches deep or 6 inches deep (stud depth)
Closed cell foam R value is 7 per inch x 4 or 6 again

city of Houston code standards are R38 which is about 12-14 inches.

If you put them all the same on an attic ceiling with 6 inch studs and using closed cell foam has an R Value of 42
Most people don't use closed cell foam as it's more expensive.

Open cell x 6 is R21

You just have to compare the R-Values. If you can see the tops of your studs with blown insulation you are WAY short on insulation.
Ribeye-Rare
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Proposition Joe said:

Is the freon option even really an option? Is it insanely difficult to get recycled U22, or just expensive (I'm seeing $100-$150lb numbers online, but no sure if thats nationwide or just "if you can find it").
Yes, R22 is expensive, but it's not unobtainium. It seems the wholesale price these days is about $40/lb (obviously uninstalled). When I was at the A/C supply house several months ago buying a few parts, the counter guy told me he had a couple pallets of the stuff.

Here's one online wholesaler, for example:

30lb R22 Refrigerant

You've already said your system is cooling well enough to get down to 76 degrees at times, so you're not completely out of refrigerant. Frost on the coil is a good sign of a low (not zero) charge.

Plus, you've said your system holds 7-9 pounds. And, you've told me you have a brand new compressor.

If it were me (it's not), I'd have someone locate the leak for you and fix the damn thing. Many times it's a leaking evaporator coil (especially in heat pump systems). That will cost in the $1,000 - $2,000 range to get fixed, unless it's in a system where you can't get parts anymore.

Sometimes I've seen leaks in stupidly simple things like the valve stem caps that weren't properly screwed down or that had bad gaskets. Of course, they can only leak when the valve core itself is leaking, but service 'techs' will sometimes damage those when they're attaching gauges.

A good tech will have an electronic sniffer, or perhaps will inject a UV dye to find a leak. When the leak is found, if the system needs to be opened (not just a leaking valve) the remaining refrigerant is recovered from the system and can be put back in after the leak is fixed. You don't lose it all.

Of course, the problem may be in finding someone who is content just to 'fix' your system rather than replace it. You may have to make several calls to find that guy. Sometimes they are a commercial refrigeration tech who works by himself, but those guys are usually pretty busy, too. When a large commercial customer has a refrigeration problem, they don't want to hear 'just replace it'. They want it repaired. They call those guys.

Besides, let's say you lost all your R22 refrigerant (which you obviously haven't). R407C can be used as a pretty close drop-in replacement refrigerant provided the compressor uses POE oil (rather than the older mineral oil). Since you've got a new compressor, it uses POE oil.

Anyway, R407C is about $20/lb. EPA says you can't mix R22 and R407C, but I've heard of some techs topping off R22 systems with R407C and charging for R22. Certainly not honest, but hey it happens.

Good luck. I feel for you. Most homeowners don't have detailed knowledge of HVAC and are pretty much at an HVAC man's mercy. Hauling your modern car into a mechanic is an analogous experience, I think.
BCOBQ98
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What is the timeline for getting a unit that is with the new refrigerant vs the 410? I'm nursing two old R22 units along but likely need to bite the bullet this winter.
TruService HVAC
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I really haven't heard a timeline. I would guess Q3 of 2024 but don't hold me to it. One thing I have heard is that not every manufacturer is going to the same refrigerant. I've heard of at least three different ones that various manufactures plan on using. The new refrigerant is also a different flammability class and will bring a whole host of new regulations. I always hated commercial refrigeration because of how many different refrigerants there are but now it appears as though we are going to have five-six different tanks on the truck at all times now just like refrigeration guys.

BCOBQ98 said:

What is the timeline for getting a unit that is with the new refrigerant vs the 410? I'm nursing two old R22 units along but likely need to bite the bullet this winter.
planoaggie123
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Geez...i was sort of thinking about systematically replacing my units that are 15+ years but maybe will be 2025 until I do so....should be ok but would hate for one to go out in the next 12 months....ridiculous....
Proposition Joe
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Had another company come out that came strongly recommended. His guys put in 2lbs of R22 and while it made for a pleasant night, by morning we weren't getting below 75 and the condenser line had frozen again.

First company said it was an evaporator coil leak, and while second company said they couldn't locate the leak they could hear a small hiss so they didn't disagree that was the culprit, just that it might have been inside the unit which may not be fixable/patchable? Not 100% sure on that part.

Second company just left and he seemed far more best option than sell a new unit. Said he'd get me a quote for what it would cost to replace/repair the evaporator coil, as well as a quote on a new system. Said he hates to recommend just fixing it due to the price and phase out of the R22 and the unit already being 16+ years old, but wanted me to have both options.

Obviously will just wait to see the quote, but what price range are we actually talking for a relatively small (1500 sq ft) house? The first company gave me a $16k-$25k range (fully installed) depending on unit, which seemed about $5-8k on the high side to me but I may be completely clueless.
Matsui
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Keep us posted!
El_duderino
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Depends on a lot of factors and location, but I'd guesstimate a 2 ton for that size house. Make absolutely sure they do a load calc on the house to determine the sizing
Ribeye-Rare
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Proposition Joe said:

Second company just left and he seemed far more best option than sell a new unit. Said he'd get me a quote for what it would cost to replace/repair the evaporator coil, as well as a quote on a new system. Said he hates to recommend just fixing it due to the price and phase out of the R22 and the unit already being 16+ years old, but wanted me to have both options.
It sounds like you're making some progress here. A 'hiss' in an air handler in the area of the coil is almost always a leak in the tubing of the coil.

And although your unit may be 16 years old, your R22 compressor is only 1 year old, so it should have quite a bit of life left in it. I ran my home R22 compressors for over 20 years before I did a preventive replacement on them.

I'm curious -- is your air handler in the attic or is it in a hallway closet? A hallway closet evaporator coil install is usually a much more pleasant job for an A/C guy, all other things being equal.

Funny thing about R22 -- I was speaking with a buddy just last month who is a licensed A/C guy (I was an in-house industrial guy) about the latest switch from R410A to the newer slightly flammable refrigerants and he was reminiscing about just how good a refrigerant R22 was. Times change, I know.
Proposition Joe
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Air handler is in the attic. Looks like it was previously in a hallway closet but when the house was bought and flipped they stuck it in the attic (which from what I've been told was accompanied by some really shoddy duct work).

Got quote from my second opinion this morning:

New evaporator coil, drain pain, all materials, R22 freon + labor/installation = $3315

or New Carrier Comfort 15 Seer 3.5 ton unit (90k BTU gas furnace) + labor/installation = $9325 (10 year parts / 1 year labor warranty)


Just going off of those numbers, seems a new unit makes a lot more sense than throwing $3k at a 17 year old unit.

Thoughts? Reasonable in either scenario to ask/task them with making sure all the ducts are installed properly?
88agswin
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Proposition Joe said:

Air handler is in the attic. Looks like it was previously in a hallway closet but when the house was bought and flipped they stuck it in the attic (which from what I've been told was accompanied by some really shoddy duct work).

Got quote from my second opinion this morning:

New evaporator coil, drain pain, all materials, R22 freon + labor/installation = $3315

or New Carrier Comfort 15 Seer 3.5 ton unit (90k BTU gas furnace) + labor/installation = $9325 (10 year parts / 1 year labor warranty)


Just going off of those numbers, seems a new unit makes a lot more sense than throwing $3k at a 17 year old unit.

Thoughts? Reasonable in either scenario to ask/task them with making sure all the ducts are installed properly?


Put the money into the new unit
planoaggie123
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$3K fix vs $9K new...go with new if you can.

This is what Lennox says as basis...some might likely disagree but interesting to consider:

When considering repairs, there's a surprisingly simple formula widely used across the HVAC industry for evaluating the best use of your money. Just multiply the unit's age by the cost of repairs. If the total exceeds $5,000, you'll want to replace it. You'll want to do the same if you're finding yourself repeatedly repairing the same system.
Ribeye-Rare
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Proposition Joe said:

Just going off of those numbers, seems a new unit makes a lot more sense than throwing $3k at a 17 year old unit.

Thoughts? Reasonable in either scenario to ask/task them with making sure all the ducts are installed properly?
Hey, it's your money, your house, your decision. Go with what is most comfortable to you.

Devil's advocate here (and obviously outnumbered, but that's OK. I'm an odd duck on some things) - Again, I'd emphasize that your compressor is only 1 year old. Other than the compressor and evaporator coil, there's not much going to go wrong with an R22 system other than minor electrical components.

You may get a 10 year warranty on the new unit, but usually that only covers manufacturers parts. If you have another evaporator coil go out (and that's a more common occurrence on the higher pressure R410 systems - ask some of the guys here), you'll probably still be paying a good chunk of change for replacement labor and new refrigerant.

Again, I see that you'll be more comfortable going new. So that's what I'd choose if I were you.

EDIT: The $3315 evaporator coil job seems several hundred $ high, but then it's not me who is getting up in some guy's hot-assed attic in the middle of summer and fighting insulation irritation and hauling gas tanks and torches up there.
Proposition Joe
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I appreciate hearing both sides.

I think my bigger concern with the replacement coil is the potential for it to still leave us sweating it out to get below 76 (that it possibly wasn't the real problem or the only problem). Granted, first company said coil leak, second said they didn't necessarily detect a leak but could hear slight hissing and the pressure obviously dropping (with the frozen line).

Part of me is afraid that spending a lot of money to find that the ducts were just pinched somewhere (though both companies have been up in the attic and while they both attest to it being some shoddy duct work neither have said that is the actual culprit).

Ultimately don't mind spending the money as long as it's spending it on the right thing, but feel like getting a 3rd opinion is probably overkill and a sign that I'm never fully going to trust what I'm being told it likely is.
Proposition Joe
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Proposition Joe said:

Air handler is in the attic. Looks like it was previously in a hallway closet but when the house was bought and flipped they stuck it in the attic (which from what I've been told was accompanied by some really shoddy duct work).

Got quote from my second opinion this morning:

New evaporator coil, drain pain, all materials, R22 freon + labor/installation = $3315

or New Carrier Comfort 15 Seer 3.5 ton unit (90k BTU gas furnace) + labor/installation = $9325 (10 year parts / 1 year labor warranty)


Just going off of those numbers, seems a new unit makes a lot more sense than throwing $3k at a 17 year old unit.

Thoughts? Reasonable in either scenario to ask/task them with making sure all the ducts are installed properly?

Being told either option we'd be talking 2-3 weeks.

I may be dead from melting by then.
AgLA06
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Buy a window unit or portable AC unit and run it in conjunction with your A/C to get you through. Ask your friends. They'll probably have 1 or 2 you can borrow.
AgLA06
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If it's only a 1,500 sq/ft house, would going with a mini split system not make more financial sense? New system, less cost? Maybe the best of both worlds.
Proposition Joe
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Have a portable unit for now, just a pain -- animals aren't happy (I have what has to be the most drama-queen basset hound whenever it's above 75 degrees) and loud so we're not sleeping great. We'll survive though. Actually have a third guy coming out in the morning that was referred by a friend who says he actually has a 3.5 ton unit that another customer backed out on that might work for us but wants to take a look first.

RE Mini split - I actually have come to understand it's almost the opposite scenario -- since our house is relatively small having separate units for different rooms/areas doesn't make a ton of sense since the A/C shouldn't be working that hard to cool (compared to say a larger house with upstairs). Mini-split was actually my first thought but most of the A/C guys have said it only makes sense for very unique scenarios.
Rexter
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We are installing a dual zone mini next week in a rebuild of a 522 sf house. I'll let you know how it cools the place.

When we were in Italy, every place had minis. My son's off-post house had them and would freeze us out at 68*.
AgLA06
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They want to sell you a system for 2x - 3x.

Does it work?
What is the cost comparison?
El_duderino
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3.5 ton system for 1500 square feet also sounds oversized, so I'd expect a little bit cheaper than quoted.
Proposition Joe
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El_duderino said:

3.5 ton system for 1500 square feet also sounds oversized, so I'd expect a little bit cheaper than quoted.

Yeah, it helps that I already have a quote for a 3 ton system so I can at least know what price difference I'm looking at, though I worry a 3.5 ton system with our current ductwork could potentially do more harm than good with it being more than our home really needs.
Win At Life
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Proposition Joe said:

El_duderino said:

3.5 ton system for 1500 square feet also sounds oversized, so I'd expect a little bit cheaper than quoted.

Yeah, it helps that I already have a quote for a 3 ton system so I can at least know what price difference I'm looking at, though I worry a 3.5 ton system with our current ductwork could potentially do more harm than good with it being more than our home really needs.


You said you had and OLD home. Does that include single pane windows, or have the been replaced with double pane? Wall vapor barriers back then were crap and infiltration was bad back then. Insulation "slumps" over time. Old rule of thumb was about 500sf/ton, so 3-3.5 ton does not seem oversized if all these other conditions apply. And your starting with a complaint that your house is not cooling as much as you like? Crap man, this doesn't sound like the time to start shaving tons out of your AC. But whatever....
Proposition Joe
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My concern with the 3.5 ton was that our ductwork was not going to be sufficient enough for it and it would just end up cooling the exact same but at lower efficiency.

The third company came out and gave us a similar quote (~$9k), but had the unit ready to be installed Tuesday but then I discovered it was a Goodman brand unit. Did some googling and while there's plenty of positive reviews it very much seems to be a "budget" brand. So that at least made my calculus a little easier in that paying $9k for a Carrier unit vs $9k for a Goodman was an easier choice. The only issue is the 2 weeks we have to wait to get the Carrier unit installed, but we've decided to tough it out with some portable/window units until then. I work from home so it kills my efficiency a great deal, but I can't justify paying same $9k to get a subpar unit installed quicker.

Much of the decision issue we've run into is we're still not 100% sure if this will be a house we sell in a year or a house we keep to rent out and that has impacted how much we want to spend. If we were 100% selling, we'd just get a unit in that works well enough as quick as possible for as cheap as possible. But with potentially renting it out, as you guys said we don't want to have the A/C guy have to come out every 2 weeks for renters.
88agswin
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When buying an HVAC system the most important item is do you feel comfortable with the contractor that you are buying from?.....every system is mechanical and at some point subject to failure....will they stand behind their work?

When you hear people talk about installation being the most important factor there is a TON of truth to that. When they solder the line set are they purging with Nitrogen? it's been proven that only 5% of contractors actually do that. Do they flush the old line set with RX11 Flush? Do they pull a 3 stage vacuum down to 500 microns...I have seen and heard plenty of people say you only need to charge a system by the pressures...

Any time you cut corners on the above you are going to have problems that are expensive down the road. Unfortunately most homeowners trust or think that all contractors install the equipment the same way and the brand is more important. Goodman biggest problem is that they will literally sell to any and every contractor around and many/most of those guys don't do any of the above and the equipment fails because of it....when in reality the equipment wasn't at fault. I have sold Trane for many years....I mainly sell Daikin Fit's now. I have 3 Trane units that have had warranty parts on back order since December 2022....I had to rob parts of a unit in my warehouse to keep the customers unit running until they get the backorder taken care of. One is a simple limit switch but I was told there was over 800 on back order in Houston....for a simple single speed Trane furnace..

Daikin warranty is longer and I can put a full variable speed Daikin unit installed for the price of a Trane 2 speed unit...actually slightly less than the Trane 2 speed.
Proposition Joe
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Would a 2-3 week lead time on an install be indicative of a company that might have supply issues for repairs?

Company came highly recommended.
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