I'm looking at putting new floors throughout my house. I had my hardwood floors damage during the freeze/power outage this past winter so I've got some insurance money to spend. I was pretty sold on the wood-like porcelain tile flooring. However, one of the estimating companies recommended not doing tile flooring throughout due to the shifting foundations we have here in north Texas. Does anyone have any pros/cons with tile flooring? This company was really pushing a free floating vinyl plank flooring.

We have tile floor in throughout our house. When we had some cracks in the tile develop that extended across the entire kitchen, under the bar, and then across the entire living room we figured we had major foundation issues.

After structural engineer inspection and elevation survey, Our foundation has moved a tiny bit, but is within tolerances and does not require repair.

Our structural engineer said the tile was installed poorly and lacked a "crack isolation layer". Basically something should have been between our foundation and the tile to prevent cracks from migrating up from the slab up thru the tile. Also something related to the way the tile was grouted to the baseboards may have contributed to the cracking.

Regardless of the ultimate cause, our floor is shot and because the cracks are so lengthy we don't have have enough tiles to repair it. More importantly because color variation issues will lead us to have redo most of the floor in the house because of color matching issues. Because we have 2500 SF of tile, it was hard to get enough uniformity in the batches of tile to match colors/pattern during original install. The 5-6 boxes of "spare" tile I have all match tile in the back of the house but are a shade lighter than the kitchen and living room.

Also, if we try to go buy new tile (assuming the pattern still exists) it too is unlikely to match close enough to not be obnoxious. A tile person suggested in the future we put border strips or some other boundary between rooms and living spaces etc so that if you ever have a major issue, like the 30' long cracks we have, you can isolate the repairs to say a single room and the boundary strip will disrupt the color pattern enough that a variation isn't noticeable.

Quote:

---

Basically something should have been between our foundation and the tile to prevent cracks from migrating up from the slab up thru the tile.

---

Did you not have a wood subfloor put in between the foundation and tile?

PlanoAg98 said:

---

Quote:

---

Basically something should have been between our foundation and the tile to prevent cracks from migrating up from the slab up thru the tile.

---

Did you not have a wood subfloor put in between the foundation and tile?

---

Correct. There is no wood, there is no synthetic underlayment, there is nothing but foundation --> thinset --> tile. Even today I see lots of websites saying this can be done okay if the slab is prepped properly. But I really don't know.

Also, another thing it seems our tile company did a bad job of is making sure the tiles we adequately covered in thinset since in places we can tap on tiles and they sound hollow underneath.

I suspect installer quality importance ramps up the larger the surface. Say he makes a small quality error every 100-200 SF of regular tile. In a hall bathroom he basically makes it out most of the times without any issues. In a kitchen maybe there's 1 issue. But when you tile 2500 SF on a diagnonal, you've got 20 issues.

If I had to do it all over again I would be more diligent about contractor selection, learn more about the process itself, and I would, as I mentioned before, use more borders and transitions to break up the spaces more often so if we need to rip out 200 sf and replace we have logical stopping points.

I'd give this same feedback on vinyl plank. We installed ~2000 sf of this last year, 30 some odd bags of leveling, but no transitions. We've got a spot where some planks have broken & need to be replaced, but there's not a logical stopping point. Anywhere we go is taking out 700+sf to replace 2 or 3 boards.

Most flooring requires expansion joints per industry standard, but no one wants them.

Use of a decoupling membrane/ crack isolation membrane will help over large expanses but won't eliminate the possibility of cracking even without foundation movement.

Schluter Ditra is a popular option: https://www.schluter.com/schluter-us/en_US/Membranes/Uncoupling-%28DITRA%29/c/M-U

Expansion joints aren't hard to do and they have color matching caulk that makes them nearly invisible if placed well (hallway ends, etc). If the tile is expensive enough...use ditra decoupling membrane. But for cheap tile...that will double your cost essentially so there's that tradeoff to consider.

For cheap tile...I would just add some crack treatment on existing cracks and keep extra tile around for future repairs. Add expansion joints if you can convince your non-English speaking installers to do them.

Quote:

---

If I had to do it all over again I would be more diligent about contractor selection, learn more about the process itself

---

The problem is you won't know till they get started or maybe even finish. Even a good tile company can send out a bad installer.

Quote:

---

Correct. There is no wood, there is no synthetic underlayment, there is nothing but foundation --> thinset --> tile. Even today I see lots of websites saying this can be done okay if the slab is prepped properly. But I really don't know.

---

I just had another company in today to measure and give an estimate. They said they did not put any kind of subfloor between the foundation and tile other than the thinset.

There is a reason that cheap thinset is $8 per 50lbs and good thinset is $25 per 50.

Want to guess what type gets used when you go with the cheapest bid ?


Always make sure the installer is using a latex modified polymer thinset even if you have to supply it yourself. The additional 34 cents a foot for quality thinset makes a huge difference in long term performance of the flooring system. Also nearly every tile failure I see is either due to cheap thinset, letting it dry to much and still using or from lack of perimeter expansion joints. While it's cheaper to grout to the baseboard, it will often create tenting issues down the road versus leaving an expansion joint and using a shoe molding.

It's amazing the various types of installation processes these companies use. I've had 3-4 companies come out and give me quotes.

1) No subfloor or backer board. Tile goes on to concrete foundation with thinset.
2) No subfloor and only backer board. Tile goes backer board with thinset.
3) Subfloor and backer board. Tile goes backer board with thinset.

Not one company has said they use expansion joints along the perimeter. When I asked one company, they said porcelain ceramic tile does not expand so there's no need for expansion joints.

Is a sub floor standard on a concrete slab? I have never seen that done before

n_touch said:

---

Is a sub floor standard on a concrete slab? I have never seen that done before

---

It's not. Tiling directly onto the concrete slab is pretty much the norm.

As I narrow down contractors for my tile job, I want to come up with a list of questions to ensure their installation process is quality. From what I've read, the underlying flooring structure is a large factor in how well the tile will hold up over time. Any other recommended questions are appreciated.

https://www.thespruce.com/best-subfloors-to-use-for-laying-tile-1822586

Quote:

---

Ceramic and porcelain tiles are, paradoxically, very strong and somewhat delicate at the same time. These materials are very hard and durable, and when installed correctly, they form extremely rigid and long-lasting floors that can last for many decades. But to perform adequately they depend on an underlying flooring structure that is also sturdy and rigid. If the underlying flooring structurewhich usually consists of floor joists, a subfloor, and an underlaymentis not in good shape, the ceramic tile floor will flex underfoot, leading to cracked grout joints and a ruined installation.

---

QUESTIONS

• Do you install a cement-based backer board on top of the concrete foundation?
• Do you use any type of uncoupling membrane/underlayment or other type of crack isolation layer under the tile?
• Do you use a latex modified polymer thinset?
• Do you install expansion joints around the tile perimeter with shoe molding or grout to the baseboards?

Quote:

---

Always make sure the installer is using a latex modified polymer thinset even if you have to supply it yourself.

---

Is this a good thinset? This is what my installer is going to use. I assume not. It looks like a 50 lb. bag runs $12.

https://www.mapei.com/us/en-us/products-and-solutions/products/detail/ultraflex-1

Mapei is good stuff. Like most things they have different grades, but I would use their lowest grade before I use something like Versaflex from HD. I haven't read the thread, but the only reason I would maybe look for something different is if you are doing something with large format tile or something like that where you may need one of Mapei's more specialized offerings.

Thinset isn't really expensive, which is what makes it even more of a head scratcher that people will go for the crap stuff to save $2-3.

Edit: Versabond, not versaflex, brain fart

Here's a list of all their polymer-modified thinset offerings

https://www.mapei.com/us/en-us/products-and-solutions/lines/tile-and-stone-installation-systems?category=product-line-category-4353

As you can see, there are 3 versions of Ultraflex alone, the basic that you posted, a professional grade, and a premium grade.

Quote:

---

As you can see, there are 3 versions of Ultraflex alone, the basic that you posted, a professional grade, and a premium grade.

---

What do you think the difference is between the standard, professional, & premium grades?

Schluter Ditra underlayment if not going on concrete/slab. And then in either surface application, VersaBond LFT medium bed mortar, gray, by Custom as your thinset.

Good to go after those steps.

Quote:

---

going on concrete/slab.

---

PlanoAg98 said:

---

Quote:

---

Always make sure the installer is using a latex modified polymer thinset even if you have to supply it yourself.

---

Is this a good thinset? This is what my installer is going to use. I assume not. It looks like a 50 lb. bag runs $12.

https://www.mapei.com/us/en-us/products-and-solutions/products/detail/ultraflex-1

---

My preference is ultra flex 2


Or this

https://www.lowes.com/pd/MAPEI-Porcelain-50-lb-White-Powder-Thinset-Mortar/3743821


Or this if any edges of tile are longer than 15 inches

https://www.lowes.com/pd/MAPEI-Large-Tile-and-Stone-50-lb-White-Powder-Thinset-Medium-Bed-Mortar/3743785

PlanoAg98 said:

---

Quote:

---

As you can see, there are 3 versions of Ultraflex alone, the basic that you posted, a professional grade, and a premium grade.

---

What do you think the difference is between the standard, professional, & premium grades?

---

I'd honestly have to search it myself, but my guess is the quality/consistency of the cement and other ingredients. The polymer admixtures may be of a different/higher quality as well. Just like anything else that has different quality grades.

ETA: A quality installer will make a much bigger difference than using the basic vs premium thinset. The guy could be using the the best thinset ever made, but if he doesn't do basic installation steps correctly, you'll still have problems and potential failures.

Gotcha. VersaBond LFT medium bed mortar, gray, by Custom as your thinset.

Tiled hundreds of bathrooms with that product.

If using plank tile I would recommend Ultraflex LFT.