Don't quit your day job Aggie1.

shalackin said:

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Don't quit your day job Aggie1.

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Ha Ha... Spoken like a true salesman. Did I touch one of your income pets/sales pitches? No doubt if you are from OKlahoma as your profile indicates you have a lot of experience as well in tornado/hail storm alley. Good luck.

Fortunately, I am now retired - but I DO have experience in the field... in sales, in application, as a roofing mechanic when I was a student to make $$ to attend A&M, as a designer/specifier of materials used in construction, and as a user./homeowner since...

Now that everyone's **** has been properly measured, I have a side question regarding exposed fasteners on a metal roof.

How long should I expect the gaskets to last? What can I look for in order to determine when it might be time to replace gaskets on the fasteners?

Aggie1.... I am not a salesman. I have no vested interest in the questions here other than giving the best advice on doing things the right way, the first time. I study this field religiously. And on this topic, you are just giving bad advice. It is as simple as that. Quit cutting corners to save a penny and do things the right way.

Tube, it depends on your region (how hot and cold it is) but you should check them after the first 2 or 3 years and then yearly after that. The neoprene gasket will disintegrate under the screw head.

shalackin said:

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Brazos... whats the most you have ever seen? We had a 7 layer tear off on a old rental house that was probably 800sf. It was a nightmare. After that much time and heat, the shingles just disintegrated when hit with the pitch fork.

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Just two so far. The lady said her roof was '40 years old'. It looked it. But, she didn't know it had two layers. Neither did I. I could have checked, but it was so brittle, I did not want to risk lifting anything to check. When the crew got up to remove...it did like you said...both layers...completely crumbling apart. Very hard to remove.

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Ha Ha... Spoken like a true salesman. Did I touch one of your income pets/sales pitches? No doubt if you are from OKlahoma as your profile indicates you have a lot of experience as well in tornado/hail storm alley. Good luck.

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Shalackin may not be in sales, but I sure as hell am. Yes, you CAN do shingle overs. I just don't believe its the right way to go. I'm also in charge of the project and the gopher for the install if needed. I try to read all documentation I had available and keep up with proper techniques so that my customers trust my judgment. I don't double roofs.

To answer your question, we don't tear off a roof for 'no good reason'. There are many good reasons on top of what has been stated. First and foremost is that my name is on that roof. I have a reputation to uphold and God knows among roofers, its a hard row to hoe. Part of making certain a job is done right is inspecting the deck. You can't do that with a roof on it. When I write up a contract, I do the best I can with what I see on the surface. I had one job that I KNEW had two rot spots on it. We ended up replacing 21 deck boards. Never assume a deck is good. On top of that, the roof warranty for my product will be jeopardized if you don't install the products per spec. Part of that spec is that products are required to be installed directly to the deck.

In regards to 'making money', for insurance, they itemize that task as part of the bid when a claim is made. You can bet your sweet tail insurance won't be doing anything other than what is absolutely necessary and paying for only what is required. Just something to think about. You might be able to get away with it, and maybe the homeowner won't know, but I don't feel good about that kind of instlal.

shalackin said:

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Aggie1.... I am not a salesman. I have no vested interest in the questions here other than giving the best advice on doing things the right way, the first time. I study this field religiously. And on this topic, you are just giving bad advice. It is as simple as that. Quit cutting corners to save a penny and do things the right way.

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I'm not sure why you want to be obtuse about this. You admit it is not your area of expertise but yet you make comments as if you are with your "best advice" comment... Roofing is one of those subjects that can be and often is a controversial subject for owners, insurance and salespersons. And, when there is a big storm - the "experts" who are often really shysters come to town from out of the woodwork to take advantage of the unwary.

I happen to know a LOT about the subject - and I'm NOT cutting corners - or bad advice (in fact it is often the difference in being able to afford a better metal roof....) - It is just common sense to have a second level of protection if possible and where applicable. I have no idea your dog in this hunt but you obviously have strong feelings by continuing to post on the subject - fine, but the fact is it IS an area of my expertise - and I have made a living at it in my professional working years, as both an installer and later as a specifier.

Leaving the the first layer on obviously is the "right way" assuming there are any other issues or problems with the roof as outlined in above posts by other experts and myself. A simple roof replacement from a hail storm without other complications and further damage is a cut and dried situation.

This industry - as noted just above by BrazosDog - is rife with crooks who will take the homeowner for every penny possible. And too often insurance appraisers are working to save their company money and are not working to the client's best interest There are others who will work with the homeowner to get the biggest bang for the buck. Certainly, to be absolutely sure and under many circumstances tearing the entire roof bare is the only way to find out. And insurance companies will also work to get the best roof possible to avoid future claims.

Roofs in the Texas Panhandle and Oklahoma (I have lived and worked in both Amarillo area and OKC area) are not nearly as likely to be affected by retained moisture and rot and mold, etc., as areas further down state. The closer to the Gulf where there is much greater moisture the more likely a complete tear off is likely. I understand the desire to avoid any problems other than the shingle issue itself. Especially if there is other storm damage of one kind or another.

Regardless, all things equal and in a simple hail situation (as most are in the Panhandle), leaving the first layer on is NOT cutting corners - and neither do many of the installers I have worked with think so either.

As noted I have done it as an installer myself when I was a student making $$ any way I could..
And it definitely provides an extra layer of protection - double in fact instead of single.
If/when another hail storm comes along would you rather have a single layer of protection - or two - it's as simple as that...

You guys can pontificate all you want about it but I am not changing my mind all in accordance with what has been written above by those of you currently in the business and comments I have made from experience.
Done it. Installed it. Would/will do it again as conditions allow.
All in accordance within conditions written above. Obviously, If a tornado or hurricane, etc., is involved that is an entirely different kettle of fish to be addressed.

Things never change.

Not trying to change your mind. Trying to help other people make better and more correct decisions for their homes. This is absolutely my area of expertise, so not sure where you got that it isn't. I just said I am not a salesman. "Two is better than one" is just not always correct. And it is bad advice in many applications. I do this all day every day. And while that doesn't really matter, I can assure you I know what I am talking about when it comes to roofing.

Would the first layer of roofing still be considered a layer of protection once hundreds of nails from the second layer are installed through it?

If you had written a spec for one of my projects I probably would of talked to the owner about how it didn't make sense and RFI'd it out of the project.

Seen many an overlay in the field and would never advise doing it. Most I have ever seen torn off was 4 layers. For one if the nails pop on first layer you can not easily remedy it. On metal over shingles I have seen moisture/corrosion issues and buckling issues as the shingles degrade from the trapped heat. And last on a 50 square install you are adding an additional 3800+ pounds to the rafters, bracing, walls and foundation. The majority of houses are constructed to bare minimum framing standards and you risk overloading the structure and causing other issues down the road.

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Seen many an overlay in the field and would never advise doing it. Most I have ever seen torn off was 4 layers. For one if the nails pop on first layer you can not easily remedy it.

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Noted: Fair comment. I would never do more than 1 over 1.

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On metal over shingles I have seen moisture/corrosion issues and buckling issues as the shingles degrade from the trapped heat.

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Concur: The only times we have done this is after furring over the comp roof to get separation.

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And last on a 50 square install you are adding an additional 3800+ pounds to the rafters, bracing, walls and foundation. The majority of houses are constructed to bare minimum framing standards and you risk overloading the structure and causing other issues down the road.

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Concur: And as noted above, I agree 100% with this. Especially if snow loads, etc., were not included in original computations.

To each his own, but at America's Choice Roofing, we tear down to the bare deck to be able to fully inspect the deck and make any necessary repairs, to get rid of the old felt and put down new synthetic underlayment, and to put on a clean professional roof. It's not a money-making ploy. In a price-driven market, our company would make a lot more money by simply shingling over existing roofs at a lower price and selling in volume, but we insist on doing it the right way.

I know his is a random late bump, but Aggie1 does not know what he's talking about. The cost of tearing off shingles is maybe $3 a foot. On a 3500 square foot roof that's $1050. Switching from composition shingles to standing seam is at least a $30 per foot increase, the cost savings is negligible. It's also a foolish thing to do before installing a roof with such a long life. Tear it down to the deck, repair or replace any rotten or week decking, use a good metal underlayment that's heat tested, and install the metal over that. Putting comp on comp isn't even legal in most big cities anymore, and cuts the life of the top layer in half. Most overlayed shingles only last about 10-12 years, and when you tear both layers off there is soft wood present all over the place.

I'm curious about cell phone signals and metal roofs. We have been debating a metal roof, but our roofing contractor who has been in business long enough that my grandfather used them years ago said they have customers complain about cell service. Any opinions on this from anyone that lives with a metal roof?

I have a metal roof. I have no cell service. I installed a cell amplifier repeater thing that brings in the signal from outside.

Cell antenna.com

I'm sorry but you are the one who apparently doesn't know what you are talking about.

I started out selling and installing comp roofs in the Texas Panhandle in the 50's and 60's before Viet Nam caught me up. And have been a multiple home owner in various locations ever since for over 50 years including Amarillo and OKC - both areas well known for hail ruined roofs. Whenever possible I have doubled (no more than two layers of comp for weight purposes only) and also placed metal over comp in Austin and OKC with excellent, cost effective results.

I'm not a sales person any more but I can and do specify as an architect and code and common sense are my guidelines.

If that's not good enough for you that's too bad.

Another little tip for those of you who may be interested. If you have a "normal" 210# 3-tab shingle roof (not a 280# plus Timberline or better), one of the ways to get a more costly metal upgrade typically at no additional expense in case of a hail storm insurance claim is to forego the cost and mess of tearing off and clean up of old comp and negotiating that saved expense for a better metal upgrade - often insurance companies will reduce your rates for you to do so and will assist the negotiation. Usually the cost of a more expensive metal roof is now attainable without additional funds as a trade-off and you get a more long lasting serviceable metal roof over old comp - double protection.

As has been noted in this and other threads "ventilation" of a roof is very important and air flow from soffit vents and roof gables (if they exist) is very important. If you have a hip roof, then whirlybirds - power or turbine - are necessary to avoid not only excessive heat requiring additional insulation but to avoid any moisture accumulation that could cause mold. Be sure to get screening to avoid wasp nests and other critter from getting in and messing things up.

BO297 said:

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I'm curious about cell phone signals and metal roofs. We have been debating a metal roof, but our roofing contractor who has been in business long enough that my grandfather used them years ago said they have customers complain about cell service. Any opinions on this from anyone that lives with a metal roof?

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I have a metal roof and no problems with cell service at all.

Corps_Ag12 said:

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If you had written a spec for one of my projects I probably would of talked to the owner about how it didn't make sense and RFI'd it out of the project.

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actually you have this backwards.
If I am the architect of record on a project and the specs have been discussed and possibly coordinated with a construction manager and estimator and certainly the owner during design and you bid the project and win the bid you are bound by contract to do the job as specified.

Granted, if during the bidding process you request a variance from the specs more often than not some arbitration may occur and changes may also happen if everyone agrees - and the budget is included in the discussion.

I am not so obtuse that on a case by case basis there may be Several possible solutions. And I do my best to coordinate with mfg and suppliers as well as comply with codes and owners wishes as well. As an architect that's the right thing to do (even though some architects are difficult to deal with) - I personally try to be as accomodating as possible.

That said, in this discussion about roofs and how much and how many and so on I have given my personal opinion based on many years of my own personal experiences. That said, things change as noted on a case by case basis. With more specifics and fewer generalities I'm sure that in a real word situation we could come to agreement... most of the time.

Aggie1 said:

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I'm sorry but you are the one who apparently doesn't know what you are talking about.

I started out selling and installing comp roofs in the Texas Panhandle in the 50's and 60's before Viet Nam caught me up. And have been a multiple home owner in various locations ever since for over 50 years including Amarillo and OKC - both areas well known for hail ruined roofs. Whenever possible I have doubled (no more than two layers of comp for weight purposes only) and also placed metal over comp in Austin and OKC with excellent, cost effective results.

I'm not a sales person any more but I can and do specify as an architect and code and common sense are my guidelines.

If that's not good enough for you that's too bad.

Another little tip for those of you who may be interested. If you have a "normal" 210# 3-tab shingle roof (not a 280# plus Timberline or better), one of the ways to get a more costly metal upgrade typically at no additional expense in case of a hail storm insurance claim is to forego the cost and mess of tearing off and clean up of old comp and negotiating that saved expense for a better metal upgrade - often insurance companies will reduce your rates for you to do so and will assist the negotiation. Usually the cost of a more expensive metal roof is now attainable without additional funds as a trade-off and you get a more long lasting serviceable metal roof over old comp - double protection.

As has been noted in this and other threads "ventilation" of a roof is very important and air flow from soffit vents and roof gables (if they exist) is very important. If you have a hip roof, then whirlybirds - power or turbine - are necessary to avoid not only excessive heat requiring additional insulation but to avoid any moisture accumulation that could cause mold. Be sure to get screening to avoid wasp nests and other critter from getting in and messing things up.

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This is complete nonsense. A three tab shingle roof costs anywhere from $2.25 a square foot to $2.75 a square foot depending on your geographic location, the pitch of your roof, and the time of year. A metal roof costs between $6.00 and $7.50 a square foot and that cost is rising with tariffs. Tear off of composition shingles makes up a very small amount of the total dollar figure of a new roof. Insurance companies will give you a discount for switching to a class 4 metal roof, some as high as 20% per year off your premiums, but they will not pay you a single dime more than what they owe for a three tab roof. Here's a cost example.

A 3000 square foot, 5 pitch three tab roof in DFW would cost you about $8,250. If you were to forgo tearing off your old shingles, it would save you about $900.

A 3000 square foot standing seam class 4 metal roof, would cost you, on the Low end, $18,000.

Stating you could negotiate that tiny labor cost into a roof that is much more expensive and time consuming to install is bizarre.

Also, if you overlay composition shingles the top layer of shingle loses a substantial portion of their life expectancy, you get a reduced payout from your insurance company if you ever need your roof replaced by them again, and is a code violation in every major city.

Not exactly... All of that depends on the contract. On something like a design build or CMAR, such a spec could indeed be changed well after contract award. Even on a hard bid job, a simple talk with the owner could spur a change order to have the spec modified. Remember, the GC works for the owner, not the A/E.

I can't count how many times we toss out architect designs on commercial roof systems. They mostly seem copied and pasted from previous jobs and have tons of contradictions in them. "Sorry GC, we can't build internal drains if the roof slopes away from them, nobody in Texas uses white EPDM, and you're out of your mind if you want me to torch it down."

This is a pretty funny convo. I work for a shingle supplier, please don't let a contractor shingle over. It is known that's the "cutting corner" way and ACR is right. How do you know what the decking looks like if you shingle over? Putting lipstick on a pig if the decking is bad.

Some contractors reuse felt, that's another act that's questionable but at least you can hammer around and feel bad decking a little easier.

Conclusion: if you're a homeowner, get the contractor to tear down to the deck. Any other way of doing it will not ensure your decking, felt, and shingles are all up to par.

Jones12 said:

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This is a pretty funny convo. I work for a shingle supplier, please don't let a contractor shingle over. It is known that's the "cutting corner" way and ACR is right. How do you know what the decking looks like if you shingle over? Putting lipstick on a pig if the decking is bad.

Some contractors reuse felt, that's another act that's questionable but at least you can hammer around and feel bad decking a little easier.

Conclusion: if you're a homeowner, get the contractor to tear down to the deck. Any other way of doing it will not ensure your decking, felt, and shingles are all up to par.

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Oh so it's like that huh? Backing up ACR and ignoring Hungus. That's cool.

Carl Hungus said:

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Jones12 said:

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This is a pretty funny convo. I work for a shingle supplier, please don't let a contractor shingle over. It is known that's the "cutting corner" way and ACR is right. How do you know what the decking looks like if you shingle over? Putting lipstick on a pig if the decking is bad.

Some contractors reuse felt, that's another act that's questionable but at least you can hammer around and feel bad decking a little easier.

Conclusion: if you're a homeowner, get the contractor to tear down to the deck. Any other way of doing it will not ensure your decking, felt, and shingles are all up to par.

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Oh so it's like that huh? Backing up ACR and ignoring Hungus. That's cool.

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Grow up, Peter Pan. You probably use one of those really high end shingles like Malarkey

For what it's worth, as a roofing sales and project manager, we tear down to bare wood because our roof systems require it in order to maintain the manufacturer warranties. This last year I had a roof that had 3 known leaks in it. After tearing down to decking we ended up installing 18 deck boards. We would have never seen the others had we not torn off the old.

I know contractors shingle over shingles....I'm also an insurance claims specialist....but it's not the right way to do it. I personally love it for claims and totaed roofs because it's a lot more money in my pocket to tear off two layers....but that's not how we reinstall and I too consider it an incorrect installation.

Jones12 said:

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Carl Hungus said:

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Jones12 said:

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This is a pretty funny convo. I work for a shingle supplier, please don't let a contractor shingle over. It is known that's the "cutting corner" way and ACR is right. How do you know what the decking looks like if you shingle over? Putting lipstick on a pig if the decking is bad.

Some contractors reuse felt, that's another act that's questionable but at least you can hammer around and feel bad decking a little easier.

Conclusion: if you're a homeowner, get the contractor to tear down to the deck. Any other way of doing it will not ensure your decking, felt, and shingles are all up to par.

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Oh so it's like that huh? Backing up ACR and ignoring Hungus. That's cool.

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Grow up, Peter Pan. You probably use one of those really high end shingles like Malarkey

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What's wrong count chocula? Don't sell class 3 shingles? Get woke bro.

Any issues with putting the synthetic felt over the existing 15# felt if you know the deck is good?

jt2hunt said:

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Any issues with putting the synthetic felt over the existing 15# felt if you know the deck is good?

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If you know for sure the deck is fine its ok. Alot of crews do that on really steep stuff like 12/12 roofs.

Carl Hungus said:

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jt2hunt said:

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Any issues with putting the synthetic felt over the existing 15# felt if you know the deck is good?

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If you know for sure the deck is fine its ok. Alot of crews do that on really steep stuff like 12/12 roofs.

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Velly intellesting....

So, if you know the deck is good...

And you don't even have to go under the felt...

You can also surely put a second layer of 210 3-tabs on as well...

There is one area above a vaulted ceiling that I have to examine the deck, but all else is fine.

Aggie1 said:

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Carl Hungus said:

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jt2hunt said:

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Any issues with putting the synthetic felt over the existing 15# felt if you know the deck is good?

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If you know for sure the deck is fine its ok. Alot of crews do that on really steep stuff like 12/12 roofs.

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Velly intellesting....

So, if you know the deck is good...

And you don't even have to go under the felt...

You can also surely put a second layer of 210 3-tabs on as well...

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4 rolls of synthetic underlayment weigh just a little bit less than 8,000 lbs of additional shingles

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4 rolls of synthetic underlayment weigh just a little bit less than 8,000 lbs of additional shingles

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Same logic. And I qualified my inputs early on in this discussion that the structure has to bear the additional load... And, I assume you are aware that the "210" means 210 pounds over 100 sq ft - the 8,000 you mention may or may not apply depending on a number of factors...
And, IF metal over an initial layer is used the weight factor is even less...
Assuming, of course, that the deck underneath is free of problems as noted by both myself in earlier posts and other experts since...