It's more of wanting to know what the stuff you're putting in is. Is it a friction reducer? Is it a refrigerant? Is it additional oil?

I can understand the research isn't up with practice (there are a lot of examples of that); results that are proven and can be replicated, are valid. But saying "it works!" doesn't really win over people who would be interested, especially those that have a technical background. Or those that design similar systems.

~egon

I will take all of your claims at face value. That said, if your additive is making the AC system run colder and for shorter amounts of time, you are going to create a scenario that allows humidity to remain in a home longer and lead to the growth of mold and mildew.

www.energyvanguard.com/service-category/hvac-load-calculations

All new homes have a Manual J calculation done that takes into account total volume of the home, the volume of the AC system itself, insulation, windows, climate zone, etc. This is done to ensure that the correct tonnage is chosen for a home AC unit. The link explains it in more detail but if you have a system designed to run for x number of minutes to cool a home it needs to run that long. If your additive allows the AC system to run for half the time it won't remove the humidity. Also, the short cycling of the system creates additional wear and tear on the compressor.

youtu.be/n1qHmvVtLY0

In your own youtube video(link above) you show that the system was low on 410a to begin with and then check to see the temperature difference. Wonder what the temp difference would have been to simple put the proper amount of refrigerant in it? The vast majority of the Barracks are newer than 5 years old. That means they are very airtight and well insulated(r13 in walls, less than 5 ACH). This is exactly the type of home what will end up with mold in it from a short cycling AC system.

Before you dismiss me as "the AC industry who doesn't like my disruptive service" or something like that, I don't sell, service, install, maintain, or have any ties to any AC company. I work in construction and handle warranty issues and lawsuits when someone's home has mold in it. At least half the time it is due to a short cycling AC unit or a unit much larger than the home was designed for.

I guess my big concerns are:

1. What happens to a home when 6 months or a year after a system with your additive in it begins to have mold or mildew problems? Not your problem?

2. If a AC system has your additive in it and breaks down faster than it should, then what? The one you serviced in the video is more than likely less than 5 years old. If it only lasts 3 more do you offer any sort of additional protection against the short cycling unit breaking down?

EcoZapp.Makes.Crisp.Air said:

---

All this negativity makes ya'll a fun bunch to hang around... You can feel the much lower humidity - that makes any article about short run cycles not relevant to us- either believe us, let us prove it to you, or become ignorant

I promise we're not dumb enough to put a product inside a house that would cause mold. And lets be real, do you think an A/C running 14 hours a day versus 12 hours would cause mold ?? let's pretend to have common sense. How many of your Grandparents or parents keep their house on 76-78? Do they have mold just because the might keep their house at 76-78 versus you keeping your house at 72? come on.... think about it.... ... think about it some more.....



We understand the fact that negative ppl love to drag us down because we're attempting to do something different.. and some one ya'll are either calling us liars or you would just love to see someone doing something new fail ... let's be real...

But lets think about this a tad bit more- All of you who are doubting our service for whatever reason.
either :
1. you're calling an Aggie owned business a lair or very dumb ( which is why we're going to pump out so many videos you can't argue against us).
or
2. you're on the bandwagon hoping an Aggie owned business fails. - shame....

Somehow making an A/C system more efficient seems impossible to many... Yet I bet many on here are ok and don't question an HVAC guy selling you a new system with a $5000 markup. Ask your HVAC guy how many books he reads a year, and how much time he spends researching new and innovative methods ... I bet it's probably zero ..... please don't argue with me on this point, it's probably zero....

A&M taught us to be innovative and change some sh*t up in the world - and here's a bunch of Aggies who have never seen our service trying to drag us down.


We're gonna to keep trucking along and figure out how to open an innovative Energy Efficiency /HVAC business in Waco, Austin, San Antonio, B/CS, Midland, New Orleans and Houston in the course of 24 months from scratch and we're gonna hit that Aggie 100 list every freaking year if I get my way

criticize away folks

---

Here's where you're missing the mark: you've got a bunch of educated folks who really want to understand how things work, and you're responding with anecdotal videos and arguents that seem like they came from a snake-oil salesman. Things "feeling colder" or seeming more in efficient don't mean anything to this cadre of engineers and innovators. Come back with a study or a report with quantifiable, verifiable information to back up all the anecdotes, and I'll bet this group of Aggies will be the best customers and salesmen you've ever seen.

Will you guys quit trolling with all your science and stuff?

EcoZapp.Makes.Crisp.Air said:

---

All this negativity makes ya'll a fun bunch to hang around... You can feel the much lower humidity - that makes any article about short run cycles not relevant to us- either believe us, let us prove it to you, or become ignorant

I promise we're not dumb enough to put a product inside a house that would cause mold. And lets be real, do you think an A/C running 14 hours a day versus 12 hours would cause mold ?? let's pretend to have common sense. How many of your Grandparents or parents keep their house on 76-78? Do they have mold just because the might keep their house at 76-78 versus you keeping your house at 72? come on.... think about it.... ... think about it some more.....



We understand the fact that negative ppl love to drag us down because we're attempting to do something different.. and some one ya'll are either calling us liars or you would just love to see someone doing something new fail ... let's be real...

But lets think about this a tad bit more- All of you who are doubting our service for whatever reason.
either :
1. you're calling an Aggie owned business a lair or very dumb ( which is why we're going to pump out so many videos you can't argue against us).
or
2. you're on the bandwagon hoping an Aggie owned business fails. - shame....

Somehow making an A/C system more efficient seems impossible to many... Yet I bet many on here are ok and don't question an HVAC guy selling you a new system with a $5000 markup. Ask your HVAC guy how many books he reads a year, and how much time he spends researching new and innovative methods ... I bet it's probably zero ..... please don't argue with me on this point, it's probably zero....

A&M taught us to be innovative and change some sh*t up in the world - and here's a bunch of Aggies who have never seen our service trying to drag us down.


We're gonna to keep trucking along and figure out how to open an innovative Energy Efficiency /HVAC business in Waco, Austin, San Antonio, B/CS, Midland, New Orleans and Houston in the course of 24 months from scratch and we're gonna hit that Aggie 100 list every freaking year if I get my way

criticize away folks

---

No offense, but the questions and skepticism appearing here are things you're going to face everyday as you try to market your business. The answers you've provided haven't quieted those critics. Use these questions as knowledge on what you need to address in your marketing - don't just insult the people asking those questions. When you insult your critics, you do not make customers of them or many of the people following the conversation.

I'm sure there is proprietary information involved in what you're out there doing, and as such, you can't provide full details of how your treatment works, but you'll likely need to open up a little more to convince people it isn't snake oil.

Also, invoking the "you want an Aggie-owned business to fail" tactic is sad. Don't go there. You're posting under your business name. If you're a professional - act that way.

Lastly - given the amount of thread derail discussing your specific product and service, you might want to talk to TexAgs about a sponsorship role, if you haven't already.

I wish you all the success in the world, but for your sake and the sake of the people paying you, don't be dismissive about these mold issues. The temp of a grandma's house has nothing to do with the situation here. The AC units on any home built by a reputable builder in the last 10 years or so have been sized to handle the load for that home. Anything newer than 2012 will have less than 5Air changes per hour(3ACH once you get north of Waco). Your service is manipulating the way they were designed to operate. I am taking everything you say at face value. If the system is running for a shorter amount of time it IS 100% short cycling. That is a problem regardless as to how you want to frame it. It also is NOT running for the same amount of time it was designed to and therefore will have increased humidity in the home.

You can be cavalier and scream "haters gonna hate" all day long. I am not changing your mind and I don't expect to "win" or something on here. I wish you well and for your sake I hope you take some of the thoughts here into account. Quickest way to lose your tail in the industry is to get a call from someone like Cass McKenzie(Big time construction defect lawyer-Lucky us, he is moving to Houston soon...) and find out that you are about to be on the hook for $20k worth of drywall repairs plus legal fees. I would call this constructive criticism. Take from it what you will.

EcoZapp.Makes.Crisp.Air said:

---

I am a CHEN major and I took the test. I have universal certification (I can buy any refrigerant in quantities larger than 20 lbs). I did this with only the knowledge of my A&M classes (thermo) and doing a couple of practice exams (for the rules portion).

It is nice going to a HVAC store and buying nearly everything you want/need.

~egon


These are the experts criticizing me ..... everybody knows you need an HVAC license to buy stuff from a supply house

---

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I don't care what you're selling - if you come across like an ass - you're losing customers.

hurricanejake02 said:

---

EcoZapp.Makes.Crisp.Air said:

---

All this negativity makes ya'll a fun bunch to hang around... You can feel the much lower humidity - that makes any article about short run cycles not relevant to us- either believe us, let us prove it to you, or become ignorant

I promise we're not dumb enough to put a product inside a house that would cause mold. And lets be real, do you think an A/C running 14 hours a day versus 12 hours would cause mold ?? let's pretend to have common sense. How many of your Grandparents or parents keep their house on 76-78? Do they have mold just because the might keep their house at 76-78 versus you keeping your house at 72? come on.... think about it.... ... think about it some more.....



We understand the fact that negative ppl love to drag us down because we're attempting to do something different.. and some one ya'll are either calling us liars or you would just love to see someone doing something new fail ... let's be real...

But lets think about this a tad bit more- All of you who are doubting our service for whatever reason.
either :
1. you're calling an Aggie owned business a lair or very dumb ( which is why we're going to pump out so many videos you can't argue against us).
or
2. you're on the bandwagon hoping an Aggie owned business fails. - shame....

Somehow making an A/C system more efficient seems impossible to many... Yet I bet many on here are ok and don't question an HVAC guy selling you a new system with a $5000 markup. Ask your HVAC guy how many books he reads a year, and how much time he spends researching new and innovative methods ... I bet it's probably zero ..... please don't argue with me on this point, it's probably zero....

A&M taught us to be innovative and change some sh*t up in the world - and here's a bunch of Aggies who have never seen our service trying to drag us down.


We're gonna to keep trucking along and figure out how to open an innovative Energy Efficiency /HVAC business in Waco, Austin, San Antonio, B/CS, Midland, New Orleans and Houston in the course of 24 months from scratch and we're gonna hit that Aggie 100 list every freaking year if I get my way

criticize away folks

---

No offense, but the questions and skepticism appearing here are things you're going to face everyday as you try to market your business. The answers you've provided haven't quieted those critics. Use these questions as knowledge on what you need to address in your marketing - don't just insult the people asking those questions. When you insult your critics, you do not make customers of them or many of the people following the conversation.

I'm sure there is proprietary information involved in what you're out there doing, and as such, you can't provide full details of how your treatment works, but you'll likely need to open up a little more to convince people it isn't snake oil.

Also, invoking the "you want an Aggie-owned business to fail" tactic is sad. Don't go there. You're posting under your business name. If you're a professional - act that way.

Lastly - given the amount of thread derail discussing your specific product and service, you might want to talk to TexAgs about a sponsorship role, if you haven't already.

---

It irks me because she's trying to sell something that goes completely against proper air conditioning design and engineering. Colder air and shorter run-times does NOT equal better performance and comfort!

In one of the video's the supply air went from 61.5 deg. to 48 deg. This has thrown the delta T from ~15 deg. of where it should be to almost 30 degrees! That is going to lead to unintended moisture in the air and short cycling of the air conditioner. You have basically shot yourself in the foot thinking that colder is better.

It's annoying that you are trying to argue with a bunch of engineers about psychrometrics. You are completely wrong with what you are trying to do!

EcoZapp.Makes.Crisp.Air said:

---

People can be an ass to a business on TexAgs but a business can't defend itself and be an ass back? - doesn't seem fair :/

---

Those people aren't asking that business for money. Maybe it's not fair, but it's the way the world works.

Have to keep in mind that there's a whole different set of circumstances that need to be taken into consideration between making an automobile's air conditioning system blow cooler air and be more efficient than those of a home's air conditioning system! The risks and associated costs between the two are significantly different...

rilloaggie said:

---

I will take all of your claims at face value. That said, if your additive is making the AC system run colder and for shorter amounts of time, you are going to create a scenario that allows humidity to remain in a home longer and lead to the growth of mold and mildew.

www.energyvanguard.com/service-category/hvac-load-calculations

All new homes have a Manual J calculation done that takes into account total volume of the home, the volume of the AC system itself, insulation, windows, climate zone, etc. This is done to ensure that the correct tonnage is chosen for a home AC unit. The link explains it in more detail but if you have a system designed to run for x number of minutes to cool a home it needs to run that long. If your additive allows the AC system to run for half the time it won't remove the humidity. Also, the short cycling of the system creates additional wear and tear on the compressor.

youtu.be/n1qHmvVtLY0

In your own youtube video(link above) you show that the system was low on 410a to begin with and then check to see the temperature difference. Wonder what the temp difference would have been to simple put the proper amount of refrigerant in it? The vast majority of the Barracks are newer than 5 years old. That means they are very airtight and well insulated(r13 in walls, less than 5 ACH). This is exactly the type of home what will end up with mold in it from a short cycling AC system.

Before you dismiss me as "the AC industry who doesn't like my disruptive service" or something like that, I don't sell, service, install, maintain, or have any ties to any AC company. I work in construction and handle warranty issues and lawsuits when someone's home has mold in it. At least half the time it is due to a short cycling AC unit or a unit much larger than the home was designed for.

I guess my big concerns are:

1. What happens to a home when 6 months or a year after a system with your additive in it begins to have mold or mildew problems? Not your problem?

2. If a AC system has your additive in it and breaks down faster than it should, then what? The one you serviced in the video is more than likely less than 5 years old. If it only lasts 3 more do you offer any sort of additional protection against the short cycling unit breaking down?

---

This post was nails. It wasn't emotional, but gave some basic arguments to the science of the claims, yet, the response was (paraphrasing)...

"you are negative, I promise it works, we are smart, you guys have no common sense, again you are being negative and calling us liars, you are attacking aggies, you want us to fail, again I promise it works, your HVAC guy is also dumb, we are innovative trust us, we are awesome."

Not a scientific rebuttal, no facts, stop being mean, just trust me.

EcoZapp.Makes.Crisp.Air said:

---

People can be an ass to a business on TexAgs but a business can't defend itself and be an ass back? - doesn't seem fair :/

Someone got excited that someone told me off and the person doesn't seem like a complete expert in HVAC - come on... ppl love to be asses on anonymous social media

---

I'm not trying to be an ass. I'm trying to save your ass down the road when you start getting sued for people getting sick or home repairs due to you altering the way their home AC performs. I have a MS in Mechanical Engineering and took numerous masters level courses in HVAC engineering. It sounds like there are quite a few other people with highly technical backgrounds saying the same things. Maybe we came off as a bit brash, but by performing this type of service without really understanding what issues you might run into down the road leaves us to believe that this is just snake oil being sold by somebody who doesn't understand any of the potentially very harmful implications.

EcoZapp.Makes.Crisp.Air said:

---

Thanks you Whitetail ICECold has been used for years in systems and nothing has blow up yet ( probably)

Here's a good little read on Nanoparticles in Refrigeration systems... http://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2703&context=iracc I think we should all meet up for drinks and crank out a session on nanotechnology

---

Time to step away from the keyboard.

You sure you meant to use that as your silver bullet?

Here is the conclusion of that article. Word for word.

Quote:

---

"From the review, it is clear that use of nanofluids is attractive but its application is hindered by many factors like poor long term stability, high pressure drop, high pumping power, low specific heat and high production cost. For use of nanofluids in refrigeration more research is needed. A checklist to be used while publishing papers related to nanoparticles is proposed. Future research directions are discussed along with the limitations of literature reviewed."

---

Whitetail said:

---

http://www.2017energyexchange.com/wp-content/tracks/track2/T2S6_Bowers.pdf

Interesting study, no mention of the mold/mildew topic anywhere on the internet.

---

This study* doesn't purport to make an existing product work better than it was designed - it claims to make units in bad condition work as designed (which shouldn't raise any mold/mildew concerns).

The HVAC Armor product is a coil coating that seems to just keep the coils clean.

The Ice Cold product states it "Restores system to original capacity," presumably by reducing oil fouling the refrigerant lines.

Any products that made an A/C unit work better than it was designed would result in changing assumptions for the design of the entire system, probably resulting in different tonnage capacity, etc.

*This "study" is just another advertisement - they use that word loosely.

EcoZapp.Makes.Crisp.Air said:

---

I am a CHEN major and I took the test. I have universal certification (I can buy any refrigerant in quantities larger than 20 lbs). I did this with only the knowledge of my A&M classes (thermo) and doing a couple of practice exams (for the rules portion).

It is nice going to a HVAC store and buying nearly everything you want/need.

~egon


These are the experts criticizing me ..... everybody knows you need an HVAC license to buy stuff from a supply house

---

So...

Me buying about 6 bottles of freon (3 R-22, R-408a and 2 R-410a), some various parts (fan, coils and control boards) and gauges from several HVAC supply houses is really hard when you have an EPA 608 license. You walk in, lay it on the table, put a CC, and you can buy whatever you want, barring a condensing unit.

I've never had a supply house not sell to me.

~egon

03_Aggie said:

---

It appears this is not the first go around for this topic:

https://texags.com/forums/35/topics/2841144

---

That's the same thread almost word for word and they are still trying to convince highly trained and knowledgeable engineers that this stuff is legit.