quote:

---

For me this is not an issue of traditional versus non-traditioanl marraige values- it is a human rights issue- PERIOD. We are being asked to say that it is ok to discriminate LEGALLY against a CHOSEN group of people. That is notthe governments job- in fact, they are supposed to ELIMINATE discrimination.

For you slippery slope crowd, what is the next acceptable group to be LEGALLY discriminated against? Fat people? Skinny people? Old people? Ugly people? and further, who decides? Starting to sound a little bit like pre-WWII Germany.

---

I love how people like to hide behind the human-rights issue when trying to push the moral envelope to an amoral or unmoral agenda.

Ok, lets play your human-rights angle and go a step further. After gay marrige what next, are we going to have to fight for the human rights of a man to molest a child or for a 30 year old man to marry a 12 year old child. Lots of kids get molested and turn out ok, I guess its ok for a man to molest a kid if he doesn't hurt him. What about the right of a man to kill another person, thats within his rights. Oh, yea we already gave that right to women when the other person is in thier body.

If we can't govern another person on issues of morality what can we govern them on.

As previous posted there is no discrimination here, hetrosexual are required to abide by the law just like homosexuals.

I really hate it when people compare homosexuality (as in two CONSENTING ADULTS who happen to be of the same sex) to pedophilia. IT IS NOT THE SAME THING and not even close to being similar.



[This message has been edited by Hootie (edited 10/26/2005 1:05p).]

MSCAg,

Sure.

I was primarily speaking about government/academic studies, but here's two references I got in about 5 seconds from google:

http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/life/20050913/d_healthymarriage13.art.htm?POE=click-refer

http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0023.html

You'll find mountains of evidence if you want to give it a deeper search. This issue isn't really even debateable any more among those who study this sort of thing.

quote:

---

I really hate it when people compare homosexuality (as in two CONSENTING ADULTS who happen to be of the same sex) to pedophilia. IT IS NOT THE SAME THING and not even close to being similar.

---

sexual deviancies may not be the "same", but they have their similarities

quote:

---

But, you had a government that decided who/what was acceptable and no one else was allowed to disagree.

---

Prop. 2 is being put before the people for a popular vote. The "government" is not deciding who/what is acceptable. Should we allow an unelected judge to decide the matter for us?

quote:

---

As a libertarian

---

you're not a libertarian, or, at least, your views on this subject are not libertarian

quote:

---

sexual deviancies may not be the "same", but they have their similarities

---

Who are you to decide what is and isn't a sexual deviancy? Many people believe that anything but vaginal intercourse is deviant but it doesn't stop the majority of heterosexual people from engaging in oral sex...or men having anal sex with women. It also doesn't stop the countless heterosexual men from jacking off to lesbian porn.

Please enlighten me on how exactly 2 consenting adults having sexual relations with each other is similar to an adult having sexual relations with a child.

[This message has been edited by Hootie (edited 10/26/2005 1:13p).]

you can make up your own rules if you like, but playing patty-cake with fecal matter is deviant

I'll take your non-answer as a sign that you can not make the comparison.

quote:

---

you're not a libertarian, or, at least, your views on this subject are not libertarian

---

Alright. Call me what you will then, oh ye astute reader of the political compass.

[This message has been edited by West Horn (edited 10/26/2005 1:26p).]

quote:

---

Please enlighten me on how exactly 2 consenting adults having sexual relations with each other is similar to an adult having sexual relations with a child.

---

how do you define a child? it wasn't that many years ago, it was normal for a grown man to marry a 13 or 14 year old girl. now that would be called rape, or pedophilia, or whatever

society has determined that behavior is not acceptable any longer, just as they have determined that homosexuality is not normal and acceptable

Who exactly has determined that homosexuality is not normal or acceptable? You? What gives you that right?

It also seems as if you are focusing only on anal sex as being deviant. You do know that lesbians don't have anal sex don't you?

Also, you still haven't answered my question. Society has changed the rules on what is and is not considered a child based on whether that child has the capacity to understand what consent means...not because it is immoral. I still don't see how that compares to two adults who have reached the legal age of consent having sexual relations with each other.

[This message has been edited by Hootie (edited 10/26/2005 1:36p).]

quote:

---

You do know that lesbians don't have anal sex don't you?

---

Some of them do.

^
|
|
|
|

does so every day

UT2005: Not using sex organs they don't. If you're going to define it that way then I know of a few heterosexual men that have anal sex too...

quote:

---

I know of a few heterosexual men that have anal sex too...

---

they ain't heterosexual then

Yes they are...the WOMEN they are with use "toys" to penetrate their anus.

Whoa.

This thread has taken an ugly turn.

Just answer this for me:

How will 2 gay men (that are already having anal deviant sex) getting married affect your life? How will it seriously make any difference. Aside from using it as another way to shelter your kids from the real world just to have it all come crashing down on them later, I really wanna know.

The pedophilia thing is ridiculous. They are put in place to protect children. Who or what are you protecting by saying homos can't marry?

And Hank - everytime you want to put "fact is" just stop and change it to "I feel that" because NOTHING you stated was remotely close to a fact.

Hootie - so as long as some minority of society agrees - then it is ok? i guess we'll see you lining up to push the whole beastiality thing -- your not hurting anyone if you go off and *****a sheep are you? are you going to support mutliple wives too? why not? i suppose you support the legality of drugs, assisted suicide, and many other "ETHICAL" type issues. wouldn't want to tread on anyone's "rights" here would we.....

there are civilizations that thought cannabilism was correct -- clearly you shouldn't have a problem with that. they all agreed it was correct for them. same thing goes with child sacrifice -- no problem there either....and frankly, you have ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT to condemn the 9/11 attackers and their supporters -- cause hell, that would be infringing on their beliefs.

You folks keep pointing to the problems with marraige as being a reason to support gay marraiges. Well guess what --- the MAJORITY of pedophilia is conducted by GAY MEN. That is an absolute fact.

quote:

---

Hootie - so as long as some minority of society agrees - then it is ok? i guess we'll see you lining up to push the whole beastiality thing -- your not hurting anyone if you go off and *****a sheep are you? are you going to support mutliple wives too? why not? i suppose you support the legality of drugs, assisted suicide, and many other "ETHICAL" type issues. wouldn't want to tread on anyone's "rights" here would we.....

there are civilizations that thought cannabilism was correct -- clearly you shouldn't have a problem with that. they all agreed it was correct for them. same thing goes with child sacrifice -- no problem there either....and frankly, you have ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT to condemn the 9/11 attackers and their supporters -- cause hell, that would be infringing on their beliefs.

---

Oh my god...I don't even know how to respond to that ridiculousness.

quote:

---

You folks keep pointing to the problems with marraige as being a reason to support gay marraiges. Well guess what --- the MAJORITY of pedophilia is conducted by GAY MEN. That is an absolute fact.

---

BS...I've read exactly the opposite. That 90+% of pedophiles are married heterosexual men.

[This message has been edited by Hootie (edited 10/26/2005 1:51p).]

i get it...its ok for you to draw a line on morality -- but not ok for someone else.

you are THE AUTHORITY.

That's one of the only things that makes me embarrassed about being an Aggie is the stereotype and continuation of ignorant and hatefull attitudes and ideas that abound at A&M. Homosexuals are regular people too and I've seen way too much hate and idiotic banter about "queers, gheys, gays, f*gs" etc. I'm straight but I am supportive of the gay community. I was an Aggie Ally when I was in school and I hope that someday soon we will get over these terrible delusions and move into modern times. Do you people feel threatened that they are out there? Are you afraid that they might infect you with "the gay"? Get over it. Live and let live.

[/Reason #32 that I hate Bush and what he stands for]

I'm not the one that has been stating what is and isn't moral. I've been questioning people on what gives them the right to decide what is moral and immoral.

All of the examples you gave earlier in your ridiculous rant are not even relevant to the conversation. Drugs, assisted suicide, killing people, etc. are all ILLEGAL. Homosexuality is not illegal.

quote:

---

i guess we'll see you lining up to push the whole beastiality thing -- your not hurting anyone if you go off and *****a sheep are you? are you going to support mutliple wives too? why not? i suppose you support the legality of drugs, assisted suicide, and many other "ETHICAL" type issues. wouldn't want to tread on anyone's "rights" here would we.....

---

You seem to have a hard time distinguishing between norms that are in place to protect others and norms that are in place for no other reason that small people think it's the "right" way to do things. For example, laws against beastiality and child protection laws protect the interests of, surprise, animals and children. Drug laws, arcane as they are, protect society by reducing crime.

On the other hand, laws against assisted suicide, laws that discriminate against gays (i.e. anti-sodomy laws) and polygamy laws protect only the interests of right wing Christians that want to project their world view on others. Live and let live, I say--what do you care if a guy has multiple wives or if a patient with terminal cancer does not want to experience the exquisite pain of having his body rot away?

quote:

---

the MAJORITY of pedophilia is conducted by GAY MEN. That is an absolute fact.

---

link?

quote:

---

UT2005: Not using sex organs they don't. If you're going to define it that way then I know of a few heterosexual men that have anal sex too...

---

quote:

---

they ain't heterosexual then

---

quote:

---

Yes they are...the WOMEN they are with use "toys" to penetrate their anus.

---

trannies? rupaul and tu2005?

"Logjammin'" sounding off in support of homosexuals?

This thread just got new life.

let me correct my statement --- Gay men are MUCH more likely to commit pedophilia then heterosexual men. they commite approx. 1/3 of the molestations and represent under 5% of the population.

· Kee MacFarlane, et al., writing in Sexual Abuse of Young Children: Evaluation and Treatment report:"The large majority of sexual perpetrators appear to be males (Herman and Hirschman, 1981; Lindholm and Willey, 1983)."[2]

· A report by the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children states: "In both clinical and non-clinical samples, the vast majority of offenders are male."[3]

· A study in the Journal of Sex Research states that "pedophilia does not exist, or is extremely rare, in women."[4]

A Significant Percentage of Child Sexual Abuse Victims are Boys
· According to the Journal of Child Psychiatry: "It was commonly believed fifteen years ago that girls were abused in excess of boys in a ratio of about 9 to 1, but contemporary studies now indicate that the ratio of girls to boys abused has narrowed remarkably. . . . The majority of community studies suggest a . . . ratio . . . in the order of 2 to 4 girls to 1 boy."[5] Another study found that "some authors now believe that boys may be sexually abused as commonly as girls (Groth, 1978; O'Brien, 1980)."[6]

· A study of 457 male sex offenders against children in Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy found that "approximately one-third of these sexual offenders directed their sexual activity against males."[7]

quote:

---

i guess we'll see you lining up to push the whole beastiality thing -- your not hurting anyone if you go off and *****a sheep are you?

---

no basis here - the sheep cannot say no

quote:

---

are you going to support mutliple wives too?

---

This happens today but I don't see you on the pulpit for this one, but since you brought it up what (besides your fragile guilt driven ego) would this hurt? You realize there are swinger clubs everywhere now right? Wife swapping? Let's just get down to it - you feel that by allowing things like this we are giving consent to the "deviant" acts we all know exist anyways.

quote:

---

suppose you support the legality of drugs

---

absolutely - of course there's stiffer penalties for crimes committed while on drugs. Look, it's not your job to run someone's life. It's legal to be an alcoholoc, smoker, etc - those are obviously controllable and terrible yet why are they legal?

quote:

---

assisted suicide

---

Funny how people kill themselves everyday but when someone who is in pain and dying soon wants to go it's suddenly an issue. My grandmother refused chemo because she would have rather died relatively pain free in 2 months than in 8 months puking her guts out every morning. You should sue her doctor for not making her take the chemo.

quote:

---

there are civilizations that thought cannabilism was correct -- clearly you shouldn't have a problem with that. they all agreed it was correct for them.

---

now you are reaching...

quote:

---

same thing goes with child sacrifice -- no problem there either....and frankly, you have ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT to condemn the 9/11 attackers and their supporters -- cause hell, that would be infringing on their beliefs.

---

and you've finally lost all credibility with you inablility to form a rational argument. Murder is unacceptable no matter your religion in this country. Your attempt to spin this has failed. If you kill someone you are taking something from them. What are 2 gay people taking from anyone?

quote:

---

You folks keep pointing to the problems with marraige as being a reason to support gay marraiges. Well guess what --- the MAJORITY of pedophilia is conducted by GAY MEN. That is an absolute fact.

---

You are now an absolute moron. I'd wager that there are more girls molested by men than boys. And just like rape (since the majority of cases are never reported) there's no way you even come close to saying it's an absolute fact. Your problem is you have been so programmed to think that all gay men are pedophile degenerates.

Edit: hootie is right - pedophilia is not about sex typically but about power and control

[This message has been edited by Furious (edited 10/26/2005 2:12p).]

I fail to see how all the studies you quoted show anything except that most pedophiles are men. I saw no reference to sexuality whatsoever.

Pedophilia is often not about sex, but about power over your victims. Many men who are pedophiles are married to women.

[This message has been edited by Hootie (edited 10/26/2005 2:09p).]

Logjammin:

quote:

---

That's one of the only things that makes me embarrassed about being an Aggie is the stereotype and continuation of ignorant and hatefull(sic) attitudes and ideas that abound at A&M.

---

quote:

---

[/Reason #32 that I hate Bush and what he stands for]

---

So, If I hate the homosexual lifestyle, I am ignorant. Since you hate President Bush, you are enlightened and morally superior? Why is your hate better than my hate? Did they teach you to hate President Bush when you were an Aggie Ally?

BTW "Logjammin" is a reference to the Big Lebowski (name of a pornographic movie with one man and two women), not any time of sexual preference, so don't start that BS.

"...you're killing your father Larry..."

Feghs and dykes ahould NEVER be allowed to have a legal marriage (or 'partner' benefits), EVER, PERIOD. Move to Europe (or Canada) if you want that crap. I get tired of having their 'lifestyle' flaunted around and fed via the media in order to brainwash us into thinking it's the norm and should be acceptable. Being a guy and liking to get it in the cornhole from other guys does not a protected minority group make.

but lipstick lesbians are ok...

ok... that is true, I actually do not hate President Bush, that was spoken out of frustration from reading this topic. But I do feel that Bush has led our country into a bad place and I would much rather see someone else in office. I used to support Bush, I even voted for him in his first term, but he has done nothing but dissappoint me in his two terms, I can find very few positives from his reign. That is the difference, Bush's actions affect me and everyone else in the world directly, and IMO that has been in a negative way. Tell me how a homosexual person has directly and negatively affected you, other that being "grossed out".

[This message has been edited by logjammin (edited 10/26/2005 2:22p).]