One more reason to hate the piggies

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spooky
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abe lincoln and general grant were also both failed businessmen..they never amounted to much either.

"We will not tire..We will not falter..and We will not fail..."President George W. Bush
Buck Naked
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I think Bush made off pretty well when the group of investors he put together sold the rangers.

bogustrumper
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...good gawd JOCK! .... that is the same kind of thinking that put Clinton in the White House because people like you got sucked in and voted for Perot...
W.E. Henley
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I'm ashamed to admit I voted for Perot. But given his antics when he was on the board of GM, I was dying to see how he interacted with Congress.

Plus, like Urban seems to be, I am completely disenchanted with lifetime politicians.

Not quite enough to vote for Nader, though.
spooky
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i love nader, he is to the communists what perot was to the Republicans

"We will not tire..We will not falter..and We will not fail..."President George W. Bush
Jock 97
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quote:
George Bush fired 3,000,000 people?

The economy was in decline when Slick was in office. 9-11 exascerbated it, but actually may have taken some of the sting out of the recession by bottoming out almost immediately. Bush has concentrated first and foremost on national security, as he should have. But he hasn't neglected the economy or anyone in it.

Besides, the president's job is not to care about the "common man", as Slick conned people into thinking he did. But he's not so stupid that he doesn't know the "common man" votes.

And if you don't like the way the economy behaves when a businessman is in the White House, what the hell do you want a minor general in there for?



First, I am just expressing my opinions and am not trying to pawn my personal preferences onto others. I respect your right to challenge my statements, and will back up my beliefs as best I can.

I'd rather elect someone with an economic plan that favors the nearly 3 million people out of work, rather than the 1 million wealthiest people in our country. The ongoing degradation to our healthcare system, educational system and the environment, from an administration that values the rights of corporations over average citizens is growing tiresome. The consequences of your ignoring reality will continue to tribute to America's down cline.

With a tremendous tax-cut for the rich, inexcusable expenses for oil-wars and consistent inattention to the concerns of the working class, Bush is participating in a class war. Additionally, are you aware of the fact that he yet again shot down Congressional attempts to increase military salaries? All the while as American troops (God bless our men and women who serve proudly, my only contempt is for their commander-in-chief) continued to be sniped, Bush pounds his chest and declares the war has ended. It hasn't ended for the soldiers deployed far away, attempting to conduct missions while the administration seems to have forgotten them. In addition to being a guru on economic impacts, I bet you’re also a defense expert as well. So please, enlighten me on a simple inquiry. If given the support initially requested by military planners such as GEN Eric Sinseski (removed after questioning flawed decisions), would our troops still be over there and how susceptible would they be?

The Bush Administration and its shills use every tool at their disposal to point fingers at the Clinton/Gore Administration. While I find Clinton's morale character severely lacking, only a fool would claim this nation is better off since his departure. (My motive isn't to praise Clinton, merely to awaken you to Bush's inadequacies).

I believe the part of the timing behind the 9/11 attacks lay in the fact that Bush was vulnerable. (I was very supportive of the operations in Afghanistan and the planning/logistics couldn't have been better).
In 1999, The Rudman Hart report specifically mentioned the lack of preparation for "a weapon of mass destruction in a high-rise building." The report was instructive, offering a step-by-step blueprint of what urgently needed to be done to create a National Homeland Security Agency, revive the front-line public services, and pull together forty official bodies with responsibility for national security.

In March of 2001, Congressional bills were proposed to give Bush the tools to start the process of setting up a Homeland Security initiative. (Republican Mac Thornberry, and a Democratic Representative, Ike Skelton were the initiators). The propositions basically asserted that we have a major problem coming with terrorism and then simply put Bush in charge of forming a plan, based on the Hart-Rudman report, to protect the country.
http://www.house.gov/transportation/pbed/04-24-01/skelton.html
"The president and his departmental secretaries are in the best position to know the answers to issues concerning use of the military in homeland security. As a result, H.R. 1292 directs the president to devise and implement this strategy."

In August 2001, however, the Department of Defense under Donald Rumsfeld gave thumbs down to H.R. 1292. One must wonder on what basis Rumsfeld came up with an "unfavorable comment" to a bill authorizing the president to protect the country and gave him a free hand to do so.

With nearly the entire US Army committed to Iraq with costs skyrocketing out of control and American Soldiers, our friends and family, dying daily, President Bush says "Stay the Course". After recent bombings and uprisings, he was asked what message he'd like to convey to the unwilling to conform to Coalition peace efforts. Mister articulate himself looked into the cameras, shook his fist, and then blurted out "Bring it on!" Sadly many of our soldiers have come to the realization that their lives are expendable to GWB. Troops continue to receive broken promises and die, even though the "war is over", all for the cause of GWB's pride.

High-ranking military executives were removed from their positions, some even separated from service, for criticizing the post war recovery plan. I'm extremely proud of the men and women in uniform and their actions have liberated a country. However, how much longer shall these soldiers sacrifice and suffer due to a severe lack of planning, incompetent intelligence, and a President who continues downplay resistance?

While running our economy into the ground, misusing our troops, and Bush is also failing miserably on pertinent domestic concerns such as environmental issues. I'm not a tree hugger, but from an ecological standpoint Bush has shown fallacy here is well. GWB and Cheney have gouged the environment, selecting to eases business regulations to encourage oil, gas and nuclear production and create tax incentives. The recipients of this "reward" are none other than the oil, gas, mining and utility companies that contributed over $40 million to Bush campaign.

All things considered, I usually try to distance myself from partisans and address the respective individual. In general, I dislike discussing politics as there are too many closed minded individuals that lack the ability to accept opinions may vary from their own. One thing I do find humorous and slightly ironic, the ones that are first to attack another’s belief are usually the ones that have done nothing for their cause.





the president's job is not to care about the "common man".

-Pat McGroin



[This message has been edited by Jock 97 (edited 9/4/2003 7:49p).]
spooky
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jock, gore won the election anyway, right?

"We will not tire..We will not falter..and We will not fail..."President George W. Bush
Jock 97
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Grrr.....that was an assload of typing.



the president's job is not to care about the "common man".

-Pat McGroin
bushwick bill
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Jock, you suprise me. Very well done.

Notice how spooky, instead of responding to your articulate post with even a half an attempt he just responded with a sound bite he learned from Uncle Rush, Sean "Puffy" Hannity or G. Gordon "Cell Block Six" Liddy.

Queue the "liberal media bias" broken record and "I still have a hard-on for Bill" parade of lame excuses.
bushwick bill
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quote:

To expound on what Urban said, the problem we face as conservatives in that the “center” has moved further and further to the left. So when someone says they are a centrist, they're really a liberal (esp. of they are a politician saying they are a centrist) they just aren’t as whacked out as the far left.


Only in your "Fair and Balanced" world I suppose.
spooky
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"While running our economy into the ground, misusing our troops, and Bush is also failing miserably on pertinent domestic concerns such as environmental issues. I'm not a tree hugger"..the economy was in a nosedive when bush got in office..bush has done way more than willie to cut down corporate thievery (and that should eb suprising).

-misusing our troops...yeah, we wouldnt want to stop another 9/11 or some genocide, now would we? no, let's use them when we have a sex scandal.

the environment- pick one, whales or your wallet

incompetent intelligence-since i actually have experience in this field, i will just say you know nothing about intel or how it is gathered. i guess i could school you on the unclas stuff, but it would be a waste.



"We will not tire..We will not falter..and We will not fail..."President George W. Bush
spooky
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bushwick bill, another America-hating liberal..congratulations

"We will not tire..We will not falter..and We will not fail..."President George W. Bush
bushwick bill
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I'm going insist that from now on you site the talk radio blowhard you quote when you post. It's real easy:

quote:

misusing our troops...yeah, we wouldnt want to stop another 9/11 or some genocide, now would we? no, let's use them when we have a sex scandal.

-Rush Limbaugh

quote:

pick one, whales or your wallet

-Sean Hannity

quote:

since i actually have experience in this field, i will just say you know nothing about intel or how it is gathered. i guess i could school you on the unclas stuff, but it would be a waste.


-G.Gordon Liddy

quote:

another America-hating liberal..congratulations


Irate caller who you agreed with in rush hour traffic



spooky
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im going to insist from now on that you state which philosophy of communism you follow more closely. leninist/marxist or maoism...please quote your "founding fathers" when posting.

and about the above radio personalities, i noticed you didnt give specific examples of how they were wrong, you only gave them cute nicknames that you got from "E.T" colmes..

"We will not tire..We will not falter..and We will not fail..."President George W. Bush
bushwick bill
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Who's that?
Jock 97
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quote:
yeah, we wouldn’t want to stop another 9/11 or some genocide, now would we? no, let's use them when we have a sex scandal.



You're putting words in my mouth. I greatly salute our armed forces and the mission they've accomplished. I guess the fact that more of them have died since the war "ended" verses the entire amount during declared combat doesn't bother you? I'm happy to see an evil regime toppled, but the underlying purpose of this war was to reveal their WMD to the world. Has that been done?

The administration ensured us how we'd be embraced by the nation once Saddam was overthrown. Please explain to me why more troops have died since then "war has ended" verses the amount during actual declared combat.


How about Bin Ladin, do we have him yet? Mr. Bush had choice words for him while standing at ground zero. I guess any idiot can yell through a megaphone and cease advantage of a horrific tragedy in order to profit politically.

I never praised Clinton's use of our military. Clinton's defense cuts stretched our military too thin. The Army alone lost two divisions under his command. His denying the Rangers the armor support they requested in Somalia led to the death of 18 of our nations finest. His inadequacies put a blur of mass proportion on a unit that reveled in being among the elite.

Despite being a draft dodging coward, he did handle the Kosovo extremely well. It was done with meticulous precautions and he in no way manipulated the situation for personal gain. The same can't be said for GWB.

As far as your outlandish and predictable "counter stance" pertaining to GWB's lack of environmental concern, I could give a rat's ass about whales. I'm more concerned with ecological laws that will hold industries and corporations accountable for violating existing standards. Increased greenhouse effects, ozone depletions, acid rain, and substantial amounts of toxic carbons are being overlooked. GWB is weakening restrictions for a price.

Bushwick Bill's observation is exactly correct in why I dislike political discussions on an anonymous internet forum. Too often when one tries to construe a logical and intelligible platform, it's met with one sentence retorts that lack coherence.


the president's job is not to care about the "common man".

-Pat McGroin
bushwick bill
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Triple OLE' to Jock!
Jock 97
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quote:
incompetent intelligence-since i actually have experience in this field, i will just say you know nothing about intel or how it is gathered. I guess I could school you on the unclas stuff, but it would be a waste.



Why would it be a waste? Seriously, I'd like to hear your experiences, opinions, and insights. First hand knowledge from someone who holds an integral role in national security is something I'd definitely be interested in. My simple participation in this overall process expands no further than a mere tank platoon. Understanding the bigger picture from someone in the know would be a welcomed opportunity.
Jock 00
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What are your initials Jock 97?

Who is that masked man?
Jock 97
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If dubbya could convince staff to allow future postings of bushwick bill's dancing girl .gif, I'd declare him a national hero and join the ranks of his blind followers!

Alright, enough poltical rantings for one evening. I'm off to College Station in the morning, so I'll bid thee all adu.


the president's job is not to care about the "common man".

-Pat McGroin
DBAggie
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quote:
the president's job is not to care about the "common man".

-Pat McGroin



This one really bothered me too, Jock. Who the hell is our president supposed to care about?
Urban Ag
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I don't disagree with all your points Jock. But I do some. Same as with spooky, I side with much of what he is saying as well. But not all.

As I stated earlier, I vote a certain way and support certain people and organizations more so because I see a need to counter someone else or some other group. Not necessarily because I agree with everything they do or say.
NCNJ1217
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quote:
I'd rather elect someone with an economic plan that favors the nearly 3 million people out of work, rather than the 1 million wealthiest people in our country. The ongoing degradation to our healthcare system, educational system and the environment, from an administration that values the rights of corporations over average citizens is growing tiresome. The consequences of your ignoring reality will continue to tribute to America's down cline.


What kind of economic plan would more readily favor the 3 million out of work? Higher taxes? More welfare? Please clue me in. Ongoing degradation to our healthcare system? Maybe. But I fail to see how turning our healthcare system over to the government is going to make anything better. No, it will only make it worse. If that's not your plan, please tell us. Not fixing the educational system? Well I don't know about you, but I am (and President Bush is) a proponent of school vouchers. As are a majority of the black population, who have the most to gain from a choice of a better school. As for the environment, I call BS. If the environmentalist nutcases have their way, industry will increase their already substantial migation out of the US to areas more business-friendly. Such as India, China, or whatever other country. Which brings me to a tangential rant about the Kyoto treaty: It's extremely hypocritical for that treaty to regulate the amount of pollution the US produces, while giving so-called "Developing" countries, such as China, a free pass. The US produces one of, if not the, lowest amounts of pollution per unit of GDP, in the world. Obviously we produce the most pollution because we have the largest economy, but we need to keep the figures in perspective.


quote:

With a tremendous tax-cut for the rich,


Tax cut for everyone. And as I either heard somewhere or saw it written, when I'm out there working in the regular job force making 45-60k per year, and get a tax cut, I still won't be considering myself rich (yet). Are you talking about me with that statement?


quote:
and consistent inattention to the concerns of the working class, Bush is participating in a class war.


Democrats have little room to talk on this issue. (Not saying you're a Democrat or liberal, though you probably are; just addressing the point.) If you continue to pit blacks and other minorities against whites and the so-called "rich", what do you think that is? I want everyone to be successful. That includes blacks, other minorities, and generally anyone who is underprivileged. But when liberals encourage rants against people like Clarence Thomas, Colin Powell, et al, for "deserting their race" or whatever term they use to degrade them, what else is it? They should be encouraging the kind of success seen with every black leader. But they don't. I would encourage you, though, to give some examples of how Bush etc. is waging a class war, because I don't think you actually explained what you meant by that.

quote:

Additionally, are you aware of the fact that he yet again shot down Congressional attempts to increase military salaries? All the while as American troops (God bless our men and women who serve proudly, my only contempt is for their commander-in-chief) continued to be sniped, Bush pounds his chest and declares the war has ended. It hasn't ended for the soldiers deployed far away, attempting to conduct missions while the administration seems to have forgotten them. In addition to being a guru on economic impacts, I bet you’re also a defense expert as well. So please, enlighten me on a simple inquiry. If given the support initially requested by military planners such as GEN Eric Sinseski (removed after questioning flawed decisions), would our troops still be over there and how susceptible would they be?


Not my area of knowledge, but all I'll say to that argument is the military likes Bush a lot more than they liked Clinton. But this isn't really an argument, so no need to respond.

quote:

The Bush Administration and its shills use every tool at their disposal to point fingers at the Clinton/Gore Administration. While I find Clinton's morale character severely lacking, only a fool would claim this nation is better off since his departure. (My motive isn't to praise Clinton, merely to awaken you to Bush's inadequacies).


Someone further down the thread made a comment similar to "No one has responded to Jock97's well thought out post because they can't come up with anything." To that I say, how is that any different from the examples you've given (read: none) in your well thought out post? The two main things I point blame at Clinton/Gore for, is national security, and the economy. Even so, it's somewhat of a wash to blame them for the economy, because it could be argued that the economy was going to hit the tech bubble at that point no matter who was in the White House. However, even in that case, Bush can't be blamed. So to this, I'd like to see some examples to support your sweeping "only a fool would think we're better off now" comment.

quote:

I believe the part of the timing behind the 9/11 attacks lay in the fact that Bush was vulnerable. (I was very supportive of the operations in Afghanistan and the planning/logistics couldn't have been better).
In 1999, The Rudman Hart report specifically mentioned the lack of preparation for "a weapon of mass destruction in a high-rise building." The report was instructive, offering a step-by-step blueprint of what urgently needed to be done to create a National Homeland Security Agency, revive the front-line public services, and pull together forty official bodies with responsibility for national security.

In March of 2001, Congressional bills were proposed to give Bush the tools to start the process of setting up a Homeland Security initiative. (Republican Mac Thornberry, and a Democratic Representative, Ike Skelton were the initiators). The propositions basically asserted that we have a major problem coming with terrorism and then simply put Bush in charge of forming a plan, based on the Hart-Rudman report, to protect the country.
http://www.house.gov/transportation/pbed/04-24-01/skelton.html
"The president and his departmental secretaries are in the best position to know the answers to issues concerning use of the military in homeland security. As a result, H.R. 1292 directs the president to devise and implement this strategy."

In August 2001, however, the Department of Defense under Donald Rumsfeld gave thumbs down to H.R. 1292. One must wonder on what basis Rumsfeld came up with an "unfavorable comment" to a bill authorizing the president to protect the country and gave him a free hand to do so.


Again, not my area of expertise, so I'll either give you the benefit of the doubt or wait for a more-informed poster (though on the Rivalries board I don't see that happening).

quote:

With nearly the entire US Army committed to Iraq with costs skyrocketing out of control and American Soldiers, our friends and family, dying daily, President Bush says "Stay the Course". After recent bombings and uprisings, he was asked what message he'd like to convey to the unwilling to conform to Coalition peace efforts. Mister articulate himself looked into the cameras, shook his fist, and then blurted out "Bring it on!" Sadly many of our soldiers have come to the realization that their lives are expendable to GWB. Troops continue to receive broken promises and die, even though the "war is over", all for the cause of GWB's pride.


How convenient of you to focus on everything that is supposedly going "Wrong" instead of remembering the reason we went to war. Which was to get a very dangerous Saddam out of power. I do not feel like revisiting a "but how can you think Saddam was so dangerous to America" debate right now, but suffice to say that the answer includes terrorism, WMD, and the safety of this country. Oil? Well, I don't know. I'd be naive to say that everyone in the world is a saint all of the time, so I will not dismiss the oil possibility. But to me, there were much better reasons to go into Iraq other than oil, so I'm glad we did.

quote:

While running our economy into the ground, misusing our troops, and Bush is also failing miserably on pertinent domestic concerns such as environmental issues. I'm not a tree hugger, but from an ecological standpoint Bush has shown fallacy here is well. GWB and Cheney have gouged the environment, selecting to eases business regulations to encourage oil, gas and nuclear production and create tax incentives. The recipients of this "reward" are none other than the oil, gas, mining and utility companies that contributed over $40 million to Bush campaign.


Addressed this above. Too much unnecessary regulation and our economy will go the way of Europe. And if you want to argue the strength of Europe's economy, I'll just say, I don't want that crap for us.

quote:

All things considered, I usually try to distance myself from partisans and address the respective individual. In general, I dislike discussing politics as there are too many closed minded individuals that lack the ability to accept opinions may vary from their own. One thing I do find humorous and slightly ironic, the ones that are first to attack another’s belief are usually the ones that have done nothing for their cause.



You said a lot, but more examples of some of your more sweeping statements are in order. And this whole thread seems like it should belong on B&P anyway.

On my way to getting that darn R off...
spooky
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jock, i didnt mean the "it would be a waste of time" to be an insult, just that im not sure i could really give you convincing evidence without compromising information. let me try to explain it this way..many times intelligence analysis is like long-term weather forecasting. by that i mean that you have to account for numerous factors well in advance and assign threat levels and assign risk values to certain geopolitical situations that many times are even more dynamic than weather patterns. good and reliable intel results from literally hundreds and thousands of intel assets working together in concert. sometimes it only takes the failure of one or two assets to make a threat matrix or similar analysis unreliable.

we also rely on the intel of our allies..like england, hence the infamous and ridiculous deal made about the purchase of uranium from africa. there's no doubt that evil dictators like saddam try to get their hands on elements for making nuclear weapons all the time. just because that specific report was disregarded by a diplomat and one intel team does not mean that it was false or inaccurate. sometimes assets take years to set up..sometimes they get killed, or switch to a higher bidder..i dont honestly know what you people expect from the intel community..i think hoolywood has set the pace for what thecia and nsa type groups are supposed to be like. our intel agencies are cumbersome b/c we the people have made them that way..one of the reasons the kgb was so good was that they operated with impunity. but they committed mass amounts of crimes against humanity and got away with it..you cant have it both ways, you have to deal with the equilibrium that we as a people have chosen. i read the also infamous report in july of 2001 about possible use of planes as cruise missiles for terrorist attacks..it tore my heart out to see sept.11 happen b/c i knew what was happening and who was behind it before i saw the second plane hit. i didnt sleep for alomst 2 weeks after that and came close to breaking down. but sometimes acts are of such utter and complete evil that we are caught off guard. i think it is only prudent and responsible to take the course bush has taken as far as preemption. we can NEVER forget..okay, now my hands hurt..

"We will not tire..We will not falter..and We will not fail..."President George W. Bush
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