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Flip House #2 - lesson learned

5,982 Views | 38 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by jmag05
aggiebrad94
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AG
I bought my second flip house about 8 weeks ago. I bought for $166k and expected to put in about $7-8k in renovations and then sell it for $199k. The house was a great buy because the previous owners walked away from it with about 80% of the remodel job done. All I needed to do was carpet in the 4 bedrooms, wood tile in the den, touch up paint, new ceiling fans, some baseboards replaced/installed, new toilets, and bathroom counter tops. Because the list seemed small enough, I decided to sub out the work myself.

Looking back, I cost myself about $2k in upgrades that I didn't need and $2k in labor over what a GC would have been. I'm basing the number on my experience with my first flip house. Had I hired a GC, his labor - I think - would have been less than me hiring individual plumbers, painters, floor installers, etc. Granted, this is a guess and I wish I would have at least gotten a couple of bids from GC's for comparison sake.

I personally replaced all of the ceiling fans and toilets. I also installed mirrors in the master and guest bathrooms. The worst labor has been cleaning the back yard and trimming a MASSIVE tree in the front yard. I came to the conclusion that I stink at tree trimming because I am lazy and want to cut big branches at the base without reducing weight. I had a couple of close calls because of this.

The splurges I made were granite counter tops in the master bath and doing Miracle Method in the master shower. They both look amazing but I won't recoup the additional $1.5k that it cost vs. other options I had. I also had to fire my first painter and that cost me about $300 in hiring guy number 2. All in all, this has been a good learning experience.

After closing, I expect to make about $11k for 2.5 months of work. Not bad for #2. I have already bought #3 and will close on it in 2 weeks. It will need much more work so I will not be doing much myself.
CS78
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I always say if you learn a lesson and break even, call it good. You did much better than that. The more experience you get, the smoother things go and the more confident you'll become. This can allow you to go in to deals, with thinner margins, that you might have avoided before.
JobSecurity
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AG
I assume you're doing this on the side? How much time per week would you say you spend on it? How much do you want to scale?
gig em 02
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Awesome, thanks for the update. If you bought from a mass wholesaler, how have the numbers they provided compared to the actual numbers?
Medaggie
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How did you make Money?

You bought for 166K, put in 8K = 174K. Sell for 199K=25K.

The closing cost of the purchase, realtor costs/cost of selling home, carrying costs. If you took a loan out, there are financing costs. Selling a 199K home at 6% realtor fee is already 12K.

All of this would easily eat up the 25K.

SteveBott
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AG
He said he was making around 11 so that fits your scenario. Normal seller costs is around 8% for full service but he could of very well got a discount on the list
mwp02ag
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AG
Nice job Brad. Keep it up and keep posting. The second and third also from NetWorth?
O'Doyle Rules
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AG
A 6% realtor fee is ridiculous these days. Throw it on a website , walk the house a couple times then get your check. I don't get it.
mwp02ag
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AG
O'Doyle Rules said:

A 6% realtor fee is ridiculous these days. Throw it on a website , walk the house a couple times then get your check. I don't get it.
One of the best lessons I've learned about how money actually works it that in order to become wealthy, you MUST be willing to make other people wealthy. There is no faster or better way than paying a professional for their hard work, especially with investor friendly agents. As long as you price the cost into your deal, you'll be fine.

I will gladly pay an agent BOTH sides of a transaction for bringing me deals that I can turn into cash flowing real estate.
Medaggie
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SteveBott said:

He said he was making around 11 so that fits your scenario. Normal seller costs is around 8% for full service but he could of very well got a discount on the list
25K profit minus
12K realtor fee for selling
3-5 K to close on buying the home if financed. If paid cash, there is still cost for inspector, title insurance, etc.
2.5 mo carrying cost property

Congrats on making a profit, but margin seems alittle tight. And this is assuming he gets asking.
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mwp02ag
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AG
I've not flipped any no, I did a BRRR on a triplex as my first deal and buy and hold for passive income is my goal. I built ~250 homes a project manager and I love turning nothing into something but man its a JOB. That said, of course its about the best and highest use of the deal.

I have an agent that will discount listings for me now, I dunno, I guess the "6% is ridiculous" came across to me wrong. I am sure I misconstrued it.
O'Doyle Rules
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AG
mwp02ag said:

O'Doyle Rules said:

A 6% realtor fee is ridiculous these days. Throw it on a website , walk the house a couple times then get your check. I don't get it.
One of the best lessons I've learned about how money actually works it that in order to become wealthy, you MUST be willing to make other people wealthy. There is no faster or better way than paying a professional for their hard work, especially with investor friendly agents. As long as you price the cost into your deal, you'll be fine.

I will gladly pay an agent BOTH sides of a transaction for bringing me deals that I can turn into cash flowing real estate.


Thats not the way its moving. The market knows its BS and changes are on the way. See redfin 1% seller fees gaining traction
bkag9824
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AG
Congrats, and best of luck on the sale.

Somebody above mentioned NetWorth Realty. Did you use them for your first flip? Are you rolling "profits" into future deals via 1031 or just taking the short-term cap gains tax hit?

Do you plan on getting into buy/hold for long-term appreciation/cashflow/passive?

aggiebrad94
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AG
1) Paid cash so no borrowing costs. I have a contract on the house right now so $11k should be my pre-tax gain. Not bad for 2 months.

2) I used NetWorth for the buy and sell. Their realtor only charges 4% total so I do save 2% vs. traditional. I may try a flat fee listing for my #3 (also from NetWorth) just to see how it goes.

3) I am using all of the gains to buy more real estate. Most of the gains have been going to household projects to keep my wife happy.

4) My understanding on flip houses is that 1031 exchange is not available. Perhaps a tax pro can confirm?

5) The one part of the process I haven't done yet is stage a house. My first one was sold for $155 so I knew I didn't need to worry about there. This one caused me a little angst because it was over the magic $175k number I keep hearing about. Thankfully, I got several showings and an offer in the first 72 hours. The next house will also be under $175k so I can't decide on that one yet.

6) Next 5 year goal is to be able to flip 2 - but a rental, flip 2 - buy a rental. Would like to be completely retired from my paying job by the time my 4th grader gets out of high school.
aggiebrad94
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AG
foleyt said:

I assume you're doing this on the side? How much time per week would you say you spend on it? How much do you want to scale?
Yes, purely my side hustle. The first house - using a contractor - I would drop by 4 times a week to check on the progress. Not much time at all. The second one was all me so I spent probably 6-7 hours at the house per week doing clean-up, meeting with subs, monitoring progress, paying subs, firing subs, hiring new subs, etc.

Ideally, I would like to pay cash for 2 projects and finance 1 at a time. I think 3 is the most my wife will let me do at once. I would like to have 10-15 rental properties in the next 5 years. I'm using flips right now to build some cash buffers so my wife can stop teaching if she wants.
aggiebrad94
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AG
gig em 02 said:

Awesome, thanks for the update. If you bought from a mass wholesaler, how have the numbers they provided compared to the actual numbers?
I missed this question. The numbers from NetWorth have been spot on so far. The first house was sold for $6k more than they expected and the remodel was $1k less than expected. The 2nd house the offer is exactly what they expected but I blew the remodel budget because I am not smart. I would say had I done it correctly, the remodel would have been about $1k over what they estimated.

On my 3rd house, I countered NetWorth's selling price because they couldn't tell me the age of the roof and I may have to replace it and they met me in the middle. I have been exceptionally pleased with my guys at NetWorth so far.
bkag9824
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AG
What is NetWorth's take in all of this?

Flip: Selling % on the sale to you the investor, plus listing % as listing agent when you sell?
Hold: Selling % on the sale to you the investor, plus property management or % of gross receipts?

Their time/expertise in finding/analyzing deals are worth something, and finding good deals is one of the hardest parts of the game (make money on the buy as they say). Just curious what that is actually worth...

There will always be risk, especially with rising interest rates, but if they're as good as what several folks on here have said, their services sound like an excellent way to break into the game by achieving solid returns.

mwp02ag
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AG
NetWorth is a large wholesale outfit. They are getting properties under contract and selling the contract to investors like Brad during the option period. They make their money on the spread between.

Brad, are they double closing the deals or just assigning the contract? Do you see their fee? Just curios.

Another case of I don't care what the wholesale guy makes as long as it's a deal for me. I want guys to bring me deals and know that as a newbie I am going to have to pay more, same thing goes for money.
aggiebrad94
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AG
Not sure if this answers yours questions but...

NetWorth buyer's agent said they send thousands of "pay cash / quick close" type letters to various neighborhoods they've identified as target rich. They identify a house and then find buyers like me pretty quick. I have seen a couple of houses that the agent said, "we need a buyer by X date or we'll have to let it go." I guess this means they don't take inventory of houses?

I can use any selling agent I want. I chose to use them on the first flip because I wanted to see what they had to offer. I was impressed enough to keep going. The agent told me this time that he normally has 30 houses listed at time (he makes anywhere from 1% -4% depending on if there is a buyer's agent).

They make money as well by owning the hard money lender. Lots of their deals are shown for 48 hours to people who will finance only and you can only use their lender. At 4% down and above average rates, you can see where they make some pretty good change. I agreed to finance $50k on the 2nd house which cost me $2,250 in closing costs but the house was in such good shape I thought it was an acceptable cost to incur. I paid the loan off on the first day I could.
Diggity
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AG
You're getting a ton of experience, which is worth a lot, but it seems like you might have overpaid for the house. Aren't flippers looking to get the home for 70-75% of ARV?
aggiebrad94
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Yes. That is the goal. I pulled the trigger on this one because the rehab was already 80% done and I could flip it pretty quick.
Diggity
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AG
well I'm jealous that you've already got two under your belt.

Keep it up!
Copp
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Networth isn't selling any house at 70% ARV. The wholesale outfits like new western and networth are notorious for over stating ARVs and understating repairs. Most of those agents have never taken title to an investment house so they have no clue what true rehab costs are. Just be sure to do your own due diligence and don't let them pressure you into a buy.

These wholesale outfits double close so you never see there fee. And they make you pay both sides of the double close in your closing costs just FYI.
aggiebrad94
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AG
Copp - so far they're batting 100% on ARV. The rehab costs have been within a tight margin of error as well. Maybe I just the good ones.
Copp
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Just always have to do your due diligence. And in my opinion rehab numbers aren't accurate if you are doing some of the work yourself or GCing the project. I am glad you are making money, but those margins are thin. I have flipped plenty of houses where unknowns pop up that can wipe out that entire profit. Cast iron sewer line that's compromised kills all that profit. Just be careful and do as much due diligence in the front end!
Yesterday
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AG
Sounds like you're motivated and happy which is great. There's risk in everything so when it hits just take the medicine and keep chugging.
Cyp0111
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Great work
aggiebrad94
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AG
Well...I learned that one of the risks is that the buyer can get transferred during the option period.

House went back on the market yesterday. Who wants it?

http://realestate.sabor.com/homes-for-sale/9003-Arbor-Wood-St-San-Antonio-TX-78250-243024203

oklaunion
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Did you figure in income tax plus the 3.8% Obamacare tax on real estate?
SteveBott
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AG
Had to google your post. Umm I doubt it. Need 250k adjusted gross to kick in and it's only a tax after the 250k.
oklaunion
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Thanks. I didn't know that.
aggiebrad94
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AG
Quit talking about Obama and come buy my house
Medaggie
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I hope you sell soon and make a nice profit.

I watch flip or flop and these shows really make it seem too easy which I suspect causes some who jump in to lose their shirt.

I have never seen the renovations that they do for such a low amount. I just do a decent remake of my rentals and it starts at 30K for a cheap remodel.

How do they do these renovations so cheaply? Are the labor done for free by the show? Do the show hire people to do the work and they just quote the material? Do they get better deals on material/labor b/c they get free TV advertisement?

How do they do these major renovations so quickly?

I am sure they have such a great advantage with the shows backing that the have a huge built in advantage.

I get it, why would HGTV put on a show when their is as much failure as success?
gig em 02
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First off you have to accept that tv is fake, no matter how much they call it reality, it's all fake because it has to be. Second, these shows pull ratings, whether it is tapping into some part of our brains that wants to get rich quick or our ability to connect with houses that need repairs, they have the show because it gets high ratings.
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