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paying off mortgage

11,745 Views | 85 Replies | Last: 3 mo ago by jamey
94chem
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northeastag said:

Best comment on the topic, 08. I'm surprised that no one noticed.
Except that if he's making $400K/year, he shouldn't be asking us any questions. I guess if there were some lean years, the net worth might not look as good as the income, though. In that case it would be even more ridiculous to pay off the loan.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
infinity ag
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Pepper Brooks said:

My guess is most will tell you that the right answer is to keep paying the minimum and put that money to work somewhere that earns >2.5% interest.

However, the value of that feeling of being debt free, owning your home outright, and hitting your milestone is incalculable. I personally think you're justified either way.

Edit: IB4 "you never truly own a home in TX due to property taxes". Blah blah.

Exactly right.
I had a low rate mortgage for a house I bought in 2010 and put down 20%. I aggressively paid off and completed all payments in 2018. Debt free completely, no loans since. Feels SO GOOD. Especially since I got laid off multiple times since and am even now looking for a job.

The feeling of being debt free is great. Yes, maybe I could put the money in the market and made x%. But that doesn't make me debt free. It is a mental thing. But whatever makes the OP happy. I have friends who pay minimum on all loans and invest everything. Sometimes they make losses and are on the hook for the debt and the losses.
Leeman
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double aught said:

Can you explain why you need to be making 2% higher to come out ahead?
As "08" said - you get taxed on your gains.
Ag_0112358132134
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If you have the cash to pay off your house without taking much of a hit to the other productive things you want to do with your money, pay off your house.
infinity ag
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NoahAg said:

Go ahead and pay it off. You can always accrue more debt later if you want, lol.

If you do pay it off you can rest assured that it will never really be paid off. Especially if you live in TX and take it up the rear with property taxes.

I don't know why people say that but mortgage is different from property tax. Where I live, prop taxes are 2% of the house value approx. I think Texas may be cheaper.
JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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infinity ag said:

Pepper Brooks said:

My guess is most will tell you that the right answer is to keep paying the minimum and put that money to work somewhere that earns >2.5% interest.

However, the value of that feeling of being debt free, owning your home outright, and hitting your milestone is incalculable. I personally think you're justified either way.

Edit: IB4 "you never truly own a home in TX due to property taxes". Blah blah.

Exactly right.
I had a low rate mortgage for a house I bought in 2010 and put down 20%. I aggressively paid off and completed all payments in 2018. Debt free completely, no loans since. Feels SO GOOD. Especially since I got laid off multiple times since and am even now looking for a job.

The feeling of being debt free is great. Yes, maybe I could put the money in the market and made x%. But that doesn't make me debt free. It is a mental thing. But whatever makes the OP happy. I have friends who pay minimum on all loans and invest everything. Sometimes they make losses and are on the hook for the debt and the losses.


It's always fascinating to me how different folks can view the same things in such different ways.

To me, the idea that you may get laid off soon does not equate to me wanting to have a mortgage free home. That makes me want to have liquidity. Let's say you can pay off $50k of a mortgage that is running you $1,500/month. Recouping that $50k via the lack of $1,500 per month in payments is going to take you several years. If an emergency hits and you try to extract that value out of your home, you're likely doing so at a much higher interest rate than what you gave up when you paid it off.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but this is why I've always struggled when people point to future unexpected trials (job loss, major emergency expense, etc.) as a reason to be happy their home is paid off. I totally get why it makes sense to have $X in cash with your house paid off vs $X in cash with a house payment, but I don't think I've seen an explanation where giving up a good chunk of cash to pay off a mortgage has led to being more able to weather a situation that comes in the future (assuming we're talking about an environment where mortgage rate is lower or on par with basic FDIC insured accounts).

That said, I understand there is emotional value to people in seeing the number go away.
GenericAggie
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AG
infinity ag said:

NoahAg said:

Go ahead and pay it off. You can always accrue more debt later if you want, lol.

If you do pay it off you can rest assured that it will never really be paid off. Especially if you live in TX and take it up the rear with property taxes.

I don't know why people say that but mortgage is different from property tax. Where I live, prop taxes are 2% of the house value approx. I think Texas may be cheaper.


It's about 2.25%.
MAS444
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AG
Yeah Texas definitely not cheaper (most places anyway).
62strat
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infinity ag said:

NoahAg said:

Go ahead and pay it off. You can always accrue more debt later if you want, lol.

If you do pay it off you can rest assured that it will never really be paid off. Especially if you live in TX and take it up the rear with property taxes.

I don't know why people say that but mortgage is different from property tax. Where I live, prop taxes are 2% of the house value approx. I think Texas may be cheaper.
That's over $800/mo for a $500k home, and it is always increasing. Add in insurance and you're probably at $1200+.

hence; you never stop paying for your home.
LatinAggie1997
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At what level of net worth or earnings does paying for a house in full become irrelevant to mortgage rates and home cost vs potential interest rates earned?

A. Cost of house < xyz % of net worth?
B. Mo mortgage < interest earned/mo from investments
C. Mortgage < % of mo income
D. Some other formula

JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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LatinAggie1997 said:

At what level of net worth or earnings does paying for a house in full become irrelevant to mortgage rates and home cost vs potential interest rates earned?

A. Cost of house < xyz % of net worth?
B. Mo mortgage < interest earned/mo from investments
C. Mortgage < % of mo income
D. Some other formula




I'm sure 100 people will have 100 different answers.

At what point does it stop making sense to drive to different dealerships to save a few bucks on a new card? At what point does it stop making sense to do your own repairs vs paying somebody else to do them?

I'm guessing you have some millionaires that will go strictly based on the "on paper" mathematics and spend time figuring out the most efficient way forward and you probably have people who actually need to care about a few bucks difference who don't care and will choose the easiest path forward, even if it is killing their finances.
Petrino1
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JDCAG (NOT Colin) said:

infinity ag said:

Pepper Brooks said:

My guess is most will tell you that the right answer is to keep paying the minimum and put that money to work somewhere that earns >2.5% interest.

However, the value of that feeling of being debt free, owning your home outright, and hitting your milestone is incalculable. I personally think you're justified either way.

Edit: IB4 "you never truly own a home in TX due to property taxes". Blah blah.

Exactly right.
I had a low rate mortgage for a house I bought in 2010 and put down 20%. I aggressively paid off and completed all payments in 2018. Debt free completely, no loans since. Feels SO GOOD. Especially since I got laid off multiple times since and am even now looking for a job.

The feeling of being debt free is great. Yes, maybe I could put the money in the market and made x%. But that doesn't make me debt free. It is a mental thing. But whatever makes the OP happy. I have friends who pay minimum on all loans and invest everything. Sometimes they make losses and are on the hook for the debt and the losses.


It's always fascinating to me how different folks can view the same things in such different ways.

To me, the idea that you may get laid off soon does not equate to me wanting to have a mortgage free home. That makes me want to have liquidity. Let's say you can pay off $50k of a mortgage that is running you $1,500/month. Recouping that $50k via the lack of $1,500 per month in payments is going to take you several years. If an emergency hits and you try to extract that value out of your home, you're likely doing so at a much higher interest rate than what you gave up when you paid it off.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but this is why I've always struggled when people point to future unexpected trials (job loss, major emergency expense, etc.) as a reason to be happy their home is paid off. I totally get why it makes sense to have $X in cash with your house paid off vs $X in cash with a house payment, but I don't think I've seen an explanation where giving up a good chunk of cash to pay off a mortgage has led to being more able to weather a situation that comes in the future (assuming we're talking about an environment where mortgage rate is lower or on par with basic FDIC insured accounts).

That said, I understand there is emotional value to people in seeing the number go away.
Its not so black and white, a lot of folks have plenty of cash savings and taxable investments where they can weather a layoff or an unexpected emergency. A monthly mortgage/rent is typically a person's largest monthly expense. If you can eliminate your largest monthly expense, you will be in a much better position if you ever get laid off or have an expected emergency because your monthly expenses are lower. I would rather not have to pay a $2-3k per month mortgage if I get laid off.

Although, I do see your point. As always, it depends on a person's financial situation. For some it might be better to put the money to work, for others it might make more sense to pay off the mortgage. With that said, being debt free is never a bad thing.
infinity ag
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JDCAG (NOT Colin) said:

infinity ag said:

Pepper Brooks said:

My guess is most will tell you that the right answer is to keep paying the minimum and put that money to work somewhere that earns >2.5% interest.

However, the value of that feeling of being debt free, owning your home outright, and hitting your milestone is incalculable. I personally think you're justified either way.

Edit: IB4 "you never truly own a home in TX due to property taxes". Blah blah.

Exactly right.
I had a low rate mortgage for a house I bought in 2010 and put down 20%. I aggressively paid off and completed all payments in 2018. Debt free completely, no loans since. Feels SO GOOD. Especially since I got laid off multiple times since and am even now looking for a job.

The feeling of being debt free is great. Yes, maybe I could put the money in the market and made x%. But that doesn't make me debt free. It is a mental thing. But whatever makes the OP happy. I have friends who pay minimum on all loans and invest everything. Sometimes they make losses and are on the hook for the debt and the losses.


It's always fascinating to me how different folks can view the same things in such different ways.

To me, the idea that you may get laid off soon does not equate to me wanting to have a mortgage free home. That makes me want to have liquidity. Let's say you can pay off $50k of a mortgage that is running you $1,500/month. Recouping that $50k via the lack of $1,500 per month in payments is going to take you several years. If an emergency hits and you try to extract that value out of your home, you're likely doing so at a much higher interest rate than what you gave up when you paid it off.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but this is why I've always struggled when people point to future unexpected trials (job loss, major emergency expense, etc.) as a reason to be happy their home is paid off. I totally get why it makes sense to have $X in cash with your house paid off vs $X in cash with a house payment, but I don't think I've seen an explanation where giving up a good chunk of cash to pay off a mortgage has led to being more able to weather a situation that comes in the future (assuming we're talking about an environment where mortgage rate is lower or on par with basic FDIC insured accounts).

That said, I understand there is emotional value to people in seeing the number go away.


This is nuanced and hard to explain all the conditions and decisions in a short post. I bought my house for $500k in 2010. Paid 20%. Made min monthly payments for a few years as I was not very comfortable financially. In 2014 my investing took off and my wife started working so we had more disposable income. I made sure I had a rainy day fund built up, maxed out my 401k and only then did I put the rest of the money to debt. Paid it off in 2018. So I have enough liquidity in case I lose my job, I am doing what I can on investing for the future. And I get peace of mind that I don't need to make any loan payments. I also am paying for my son's college without taking out additional loans. I also paid my own Master's degree about 15 years ago (about $120k). No loan.

If my house costed me $3 Million, then yes, I would pay only minimum until I felt I could handle extra. I am not there yet.

It's just a different mindset. One needs to know what one is comfortable with. I believe as one gets wealthier, people prefer to pay off and pay cash as much as possible as it is a hassle to manage multiple debt payments and rates. I bet Bill Gates never takes out a loan even if he gets 0%. Wastes his time to set up monthly payments.

In the end, you still have to pay the money. So you are making a choice between mental peace and potentially more gain and potential losses. If the gain was assured and risk-free then it is a no-brainer. If it is not and I could lose, then I prefer paying off loan.
infinity ag
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Petrino1 said:

JDCAG (NOT Colin) said:

infinity ag said:

Pepper Brooks said:

My guess is most will tell you that the right answer is to keep paying the minimum and put that money to work somewhere that earns >2.5% interest.

However, the value of that feeling of being debt free, owning your home outright, and hitting your milestone is incalculable. I personally think you're justified either way.

Edit: IB4 "you never truly own a home in TX due to property taxes". Blah blah.

Exactly right.
I had a low rate mortgage for a house I bought in 2010 and put down 20%. I aggressively paid off and completed all payments in 2018. Debt free completely, no loans since. Feels SO GOOD. Especially since I got laid off multiple times since and am even now looking for a job.

The feeling of being debt free is great. Yes, maybe I could put the money in the market and made x%. But that doesn't make me debt free. It is a mental thing. But whatever makes the OP happy. I have friends who pay minimum on all loans and invest everything. Sometimes they make losses and are on the hook for the debt and the losses.


It's always fascinating to me how different folks can view the same things in such different ways.

To me, the idea that you may get laid off soon does not equate to me wanting to have a mortgage free home. That makes me want to have liquidity. Let's say you can pay off $50k of a mortgage that is running you $1,500/month. Recouping that $50k via the lack of $1,500 per month in payments is going to take you several years. If an emergency hits and you try to extract that value out of your home, you're likely doing so at a much higher interest rate than what you gave up when you paid it off.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but this is why I've always struggled when people point to future unexpected trials (job loss, major emergency expense, etc.) as a reason to be happy their home is paid off. I totally get why it makes sense to have $X in cash with your house paid off vs $X in cash with a house payment, but I don't think I've seen an explanation where giving up a good chunk of cash to pay off a mortgage has led to being more able to weather a situation that comes in the future (assuming we're talking about an environment where mortgage rate is lower or on par with basic FDIC insured accounts).

That said, I understand there is emotional value to people in seeing the number go away.
Its not so black and white, a lot of folks have plenty of cash savings and taxable investments where they can weather a layoff or an unexpected emergency. A monthly mortgage/rent is typically a person's largest monthly expense. If you can eliminate your largest monthly expense, you will be in a much better position if you ever get laid off or have an expected emergency because your monthly expenses are lower. I would rather not have to pay a $2-3k per month mortgage if I get laid off.

Although, I do see your point. As always, it depends on a person's financial situation. For some it might be better to put the money to work, for others it might make more sense to pay off the mortgage. With that said, being debt free is never a bad thing.

You explained it well.
The decision depends on the person's financial situation. I was not able to pay off my $200k townhome. I had $20k left after 8 years when I sold. But I paid off my $500k house in 8 years. If I buy a $3M house in SF Bay, then I will not be able to pay off in 8 years. May take me 15.

Here is how to look at it.
Your salary = 100k, house value $500k, what would you do?
Your salary = 300k, house value $500k, what would you do?
Your salary = 100k, house value $2M, what would you do?
Your salary = 500k, house value $500k, what would you do?

I am sure each question will have a different answer.


62strat
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AG
Quote:


B. Mo mortgage = Mo problems

FIFY
JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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AG
Petrino1 said:

JDCAG (NOT Colin) said:

infinity ag said:

Pepper Brooks said:

My guess is most will tell you that the right answer is to keep paying the minimum and put that money to work somewhere that earns >2.5% interest.

However, the value of that feeling of being debt free, owning your home outright, and hitting your milestone is incalculable. I personally think you're justified either way.

Edit: IB4 "you never truly own a home in TX due to property taxes". Blah blah.

Exactly right.
I had a low rate mortgage for a house I bought in 2010 and put down 20%. I aggressively paid off and completed all payments in 2018. Debt free completely, no loans since. Feels SO GOOD. Especially since I got laid off multiple times since and am even now looking for a job.

The feeling of being debt free is great. Yes, maybe I could put the money in the market and made x%. But that doesn't make me debt free. It is a mental thing. But whatever makes the OP happy. I have friends who pay minimum on all loans and invest everything. Sometimes they make losses and are on the hook for the debt and the losses.


It's always fascinating to me how different folks can view the same things in such different ways.

To me, the idea that you may get laid off soon does not equate to me wanting to have a mortgage free home. That makes me want to have liquidity. Let's say you can pay off $50k of a mortgage that is running you $1,500/month. Recouping that $50k via the lack of $1,500 per month in payments is going to take you several years. If an emergency hits and you try to extract that value out of your home, you're likely doing so at a much higher interest rate than what you gave up when you paid it off.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but this is why I've always struggled when people point to future unexpected trials (job loss, major emergency expense, etc.) as a reason to be happy their home is paid off. I totally get why it makes sense to have $X in cash with your house paid off vs $X in cash with a house payment, but I don't think I've seen an explanation where giving up a good chunk of cash to pay off a mortgage has led to being more able to weather a situation that comes in the future (assuming we're talking about an environment where mortgage rate is lower or on par with basic FDIC insured accounts).

That said, I understand there is emotional value to people in seeing the number go away.
Its not so black and white, a lot of folks have plenty of cash savings and taxable investments where they can weather a layoff or an unexpected emergency. A monthly mortgage/rent is typically a person's largest monthly expense. If you can eliminate your largest monthly expense, you will be in a much better position if you ever get laid off or have an expected emergency because your monthly expenses are lower. I would rather not have to pay a $2-3k per month mortgage if I get laid off.

Although, I do see your point. As always, it depends on a person's financial situation. For some it might be better to put the money to work, for others it might make more sense to pay off the mortgage. With that said, being debt free is never a bad thing.


I guess where I get lost is these arguments seem to ignore the fact that you have a boatload of cash going away when you pay off the mortgage. Put another way, I'd rather pay $2-3k/month while having $50k in the bank than pay $0/month (for mortgage) while having $5k in the bank.

Who is better prepared to withstand a 3 month job hunt?

Person A: $1,500/month mortgage, $50k cash
Person B: $0/month mortgage, $0 cash

Since we're simply talking about whether the person pays off their mortgage, you can assume things like rainy day funds are all equal. At absolute worst, they're in "equal" positions (if they have enough cash to where it doesn't matter either way). But the person with the cash can handle several years worth of mortgage payments sitting in cash.

Every argument I see for clearing the mortgage putting you in "better position" seems to be acting as if there is no cost to doing so - i.e. they act like the person with the mortgage doesn't still have that same cash sitting aside.

Now, if the argument is pay off your mortgage or go spend the money on trips, cars, house projects, etc. then I totally understand.

But I guess that is why I think this is mostly an emotional decision, cause I just don't see a situation where financially it puts you in "safer" or "better" position. Just that it takes some emotional weight off of your shoulders - totally valid and fine if that is what somebody is after.

Even more so because if you opt to payoff your mortgage, it's done. If you opt to sit tight, you can always make the move tomorrow if financial conditions make it more advantageous.
Petrino1
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JDCAG (NOT Colin) said:

Petrino1 said:

JDCAG (NOT Colin) said:

infinity ag said:

Pepper Brooks said:

My guess is most will tell you that the right answer is to keep paying the minimum and put that money to work somewhere that earns >2.5% interest.

However, the value of that feeling of being debt free, owning your home outright, and hitting your milestone is incalculable. I personally think you're justified either way.

Edit: IB4 "you never truly own a home in TX due to property taxes". Blah blah.

Exactly right.
I had a low rate mortgage for a house I bought in 2010 and put down 20%. I aggressively paid off and completed all payments in 2018. Debt free completely, no loans since. Feels SO GOOD. Especially since I got laid off multiple times since and am even now looking for a job.

The feeling of being debt free is great. Yes, maybe I could put the money in the market and made x%. But that doesn't make me debt free. It is a mental thing. But whatever makes the OP happy. I have friends who pay minimum on all loans and invest everything. Sometimes they make losses and are on the hook for the debt and the losses.


It's always fascinating to me how different folks can view the same things in such different ways.

To me, the idea that you may get laid off soon does not equate to me wanting to have a mortgage free home. That makes me want to have liquidity. Let's say you can pay off $50k of a mortgage that is running you $1,500/month. Recouping that $50k via the lack of $1,500 per month in payments is going to take you several years. If an emergency hits and you try to extract that value out of your home, you're likely doing so at a much higher interest rate than what you gave up when you paid it off.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but this is why I've always struggled when people point to future unexpected trials (job loss, major emergency expense, etc.) as a reason to be happy their home is paid off. I totally get why it makes sense to have $X in cash with your house paid off vs $X in cash with a house payment, but I don't think I've seen an explanation where giving up a good chunk of cash to pay off a mortgage has led to being more able to weather a situation that comes in the future (assuming we're talking about an environment where mortgage rate is lower or on par with basic FDIC insured accounts).

That said, I understand there is emotional value to people in seeing the number go away.
Its not so black and white, a lot of folks have plenty of cash savings and taxable investments where they can weather a layoff or an unexpected emergency. A monthly mortgage/rent is typically a person's largest monthly expense. If you can eliminate your largest monthly expense, you will be in a much better position if you ever get laid off or have an expected emergency because your monthly expenses are lower. I would rather not have to pay a $2-3k per month mortgage if I get laid off.

Although, I do see your point. As always, it depends on a person's financial situation. For some it might be better to put the money to work, for others it might make more sense to pay off the mortgage. With that said, being debt free is never a bad thing.


I guess where I get lost is these arguments seem to ignore the fact that you have a boatload of cash going away when you pay off the mortgage. Put another way, I'd rather pay $2-3k/month while having $50k in the bank than pay $0/month (for mortgage) while having $5k in the bank.

Who is better prepared to withstand a 3 month job hunt?

Person A: $1,500/month mortgage, $50k cash
Person B: $0/month mortgage, $0 cash

Since we're simply talking about whether the person pays off their mortgage, you can assume things like rainy day funds are all equal. At absolute worst, they're in "equal" positions (if they have enough cash to where it doesn't matter either way). But the person with the cash can handle several years worth of mortgage payments sitting in cash.

Every argument I see for clearing the mortgage putting you in "better position" seems to be acting as if there is no cost to doing so - i.e. they act like the person with the mortgage doesn't still have that same cash sitting aside.

Now, if the argument is pay off your mortgage or go spend the money on trips, cars, house projects, etc. then I totally understand.

But I guess that is why I think this is mostly an emotional decision, cause I just don't see a situation where financially it puts you in "safer" or "better" position. Just that it takes some emotional weight off of your shoulders - totally valid and fine if that is what somebody is after.

Even more so because if you opt to payoff your mortgage, it's done. If you opt to sit tight, you can always make the move tomorrow if financial conditions make it more advantageous.
I mean who is going to use their entire cash savings to pay off their mortgage? Of course, no one would advise a person to do that.

How about if a person has $50k cash savings, $2MM net worth, gets a $50k bonus, and has $50k left on the mortgage. I think in that scenario it makes sense to pay off the mortgage.

Every situation is different and its impossible to give blanket advice without knowing the specifics.
62strat
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AG
Petrino1 said:

JDCAG (NOT Colin) said:

Petrino1 said:

JDCAG (NOT Colin) said:

infinity ag said:

Pepper Brooks said:

My guess is most will tell you that the right answer is to keep paying the minimum and put that money to work somewhere that earns >2.5% interest.

However, the value of that feeling of being debt free, owning your home outright, and hitting your milestone is incalculable. I personally think you're justified either way.

Edit: IB4 "you never truly own a home in TX due to property taxes". Blah blah.

Exactly right.
I had a low rate mortgage for a house I bought in 2010 and put down 20%. I aggressively paid off and completed all payments in 2018. Debt free completely, no loans since. Feels SO GOOD. Especially since I got laid off multiple times since and am even now looking for a job.

The feeling of being debt free is great. Yes, maybe I could put the money in the market and made x%. But that doesn't make me debt free. It is a mental thing. But whatever makes the OP happy. I have friends who pay minimum on all loans and invest everything. Sometimes they make losses and are on the hook for the debt and the losses.


It's always fascinating to me how different folks can view the same things in such different ways.

To me, the idea that you may get laid off soon does not equate to me wanting to have a mortgage free home. That makes me want to have liquidity. Let's say you can pay off $50k of a mortgage that is running you $1,500/month. Recouping that $50k via the lack of $1,500 per month in payments is going to take you several years. If an emergency hits and you try to extract that value out of your home, you're likely doing so at a much higher interest rate than what you gave up when you paid it off.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but this is why I've always struggled when people point to future unexpected trials (job loss, major emergency expense, etc.) as a reason to be happy their home is paid off. I totally get why it makes sense to have $X in cash with your house paid off vs $X in cash with a house payment, but I don't think I've seen an explanation where giving up a good chunk of cash to pay off a mortgage has led to being more able to weather a situation that comes in the future (assuming we're talking about an environment where mortgage rate is lower or on par with basic FDIC insured accounts).

That said, I understand there is emotional value to people in seeing the number go away.
Its not so black and white, a lot of folks have plenty of cash savings and taxable investments where they can weather a layoff or an unexpected emergency. A monthly mortgage/rent is typically a person's largest monthly expense. If you can eliminate your largest monthly expense, you will be in a much better position if you ever get laid off or have an expected emergency because your monthly expenses are lower. I would rather not have to pay a $2-3k per month mortgage if I get laid off.

Although, I do see your point. As always, it depends on a person's financial situation. For some it might be better to put the money to work, for others it might make more sense to pay off the mortgage. With that said, being debt free is never a bad thing.


I guess where I get lost is these arguments seem to ignore the fact that you have a boatload of cash going away when you pay off the mortgage. Put another way, I'd rather pay $2-3k/month while having $50k in the bank than pay $0/month (for mortgage) while having $5k in the bank.

Who is better prepared to withstand a 3 month job hunt?

Person A: $1,500/month mortgage, $50k cash
Person B: $0/month mortgage, $0 cash

Since we're simply talking about whether the person pays off their mortgage, you can assume things like rainy day funds are all equal. At absolute worst, they're in "equal" positions (if they have enough cash to where it doesn't matter either way). But the person with the cash can handle several years worth of mortgage payments sitting in cash.

Every argument I see for clearing the mortgage putting you in "better position" seems to be acting as if there is no cost to doing so - i.e. they act like the person with the mortgage doesn't still have that same cash sitting aside.

Now, if the argument is pay off your mortgage or go spend the money on trips, cars, house projects, etc. then I totally understand.

But I guess that is why I think this is mostly an emotional decision, cause I just don't see a situation where financially it puts you in "safer" or "better" position. Just that it takes some emotional weight off of your shoulders - totally valid and fine if that is what somebody is after.

Even more so because if you opt to payoff your mortgage, it's done. If you opt to sit tight, you can always make the move tomorrow if financial conditions make it more advantageous.
I mean who is going to use their entire cash savings to pay off their mortgage? Of course, no one would advise a person to do that.
If they had a loan rate of 7%, why wouldn't they? It's a great return on investment.

And he didn't say it was their entire cash savings.
The $50k is a hypothetical example of a stash of money that someone has and is trying to figure out what to do with it; Invest, or pay down mortgage. We are all assuming a typical rainy day fund is already stored somewhere.

infinity ag
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Petrino1 said:

JDCAG (NOT Colin) said:

Petrino1 said:

JDCAG (NOT Colin) said:

infinity ag said:

Pepper Brooks said:

My guess is most will tell you that the right answer is to keep paying the minimum and put that money to work somewhere that earns >2.5% interest.

However, the value of that feeling of being debt free, owning your home outright, and hitting your milestone is incalculable. I personally think you're justified either way.

Edit: IB4 "you never truly own a home in TX due to property taxes". Blah blah.

Exactly right.
I had a low rate mortgage for a house I bought in 2010 and put down 20%. I aggressively paid off and completed all payments in 2018. Debt free completely, no loans since. Feels SO GOOD. Especially since I got laid off multiple times since and am even now looking for a job.

The feeling of being debt free is great. Yes, maybe I could put the money in the market and made x%. But that doesn't make me debt free. It is a mental thing. But whatever makes the OP happy. I have friends who pay minimum on all loans and invest everything. Sometimes they make losses and are on the hook for the debt and the losses.


It's always fascinating to me how different folks can view the same things in such different ways.

To me, the idea that you may get laid off soon does not equate to me wanting to have a mortgage free home. That makes me want to have liquidity. Let's say you can pay off $50k of a mortgage that is running you $1,500/month. Recouping that $50k via the lack of $1,500 per month in payments is going to take you several years. If an emergency hits and you try to extract that value out of your home, you're likely doing so at a much higher interest rate than what you gave up when you paid it off.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but this is why I've always struggled when people point to future unexpected trials (job loss, major emergency expense, etc.) as a reason to be happy their home is paid off. I totally get why it makes sense to have $X in cash with your house paid off vs $X in cash with a house payment, but I don't think I've seen an explanation where giving up a good chunk of cash to pay off a mortgage has led to being more able to weather a situation that comes in the future (assuming we're talking about an environment where mortgage rate is lower or on par with basic FDIC insured accounts).

That said, I understand there is emotional value to people in seeing the number go away.
Its not so black and white, a lot of folks have plenty of cash savings and taxable investments where they can weather a layoff or an unexpected emergency. A monthly mortgage/rent is typically a person's largest monthly expense. If you can eliminate your largest monthly expense, you will be in a much better position if you ever get laid off or have an expected emergency because your monthly expenses are lower. I would rather not have to pay a $2-3k per month mortgage if I get laid off.

Although, I do see your point. As always, it depends on a person's financial situation. For some it might be better to put the money to work, for others it might make more sense to pay off the mortgage. With that said, being debt free is never a bad thing.


I guess where I get lost is these arguments seem to ignore the fact that you have a boatload of cash going away when you pay off the mortgage. Put another way, I'd rather pay $2-3k/month while having $50k in the bank than pay $0/month (for mortgage) while having $5k in the bank.

Who is better prepared to withstand a 3 month job hunt?

Person A: $1,500/month mortgage, $50k cash
Person B: $0/month mortgage, $0 cash

Since we're simply talking about whether the person pays off their mortgage, you can assume things like rainy day funds are all equal. At absolute worst, they're in "equal" positions (if they have enough cash to where it doesn't matter either way). But the person with the cash can handle several years worth of mortgage payments sitting in cash.

Every argument I see for clearing the mortgage putting you in "better position" seems to be acting as if there is no cost to doing so - i.e. they act like the person with the mortgage doesn't still have that same cash sitting aside.

Now, if the argument is pay off your mortgage or go spend the money on trips, cars, house projects, etc. then I totally understand.

But I guess that is why I think this is mostly an emotional decision, cause I just don't see a situation where financially it puts you in "safer" or "better" position. Just that it takes some emotional weight off of your shoulders - totally valid and fine if that is what somebody is after.

Even more so because if you opt to payoff your mortgage, it's done. If you opt to sit tight, you can always make the move tomorrow if financial conditions make it more advantageous.
I mean who is going to use their entire cash savings to pay off their mortgage? Of course, no one would advise a person to do that.

How about if a person has $50k cash savings, $2MM net worth, gets a $50k bonus, and has $50k left on the mortgage. I think in that scenario it makes sense to pay off the mortgage.

Every situation is different and its impossible to give blanket advice without knowing the specifics.

Yep, something like this was my scenario. I put all my bonus money into paying off the principal. Dual Salary took care of bills and some travel. We are not big spenders so saving isn't too hard.

To simplify things, when we are younger and somewhat poorer, we nickle and dime everything. As we get older and hopefully wealthier, convenience becomes more important. I would rather have less in the bank and all loans paid off so I know exactly how much I really have. That is assuming I don't pay off everything and leave $0 in the bank, I would not do something like that. If I feel wealthier, then I would not want the hassle of worrying over 2% over 3% mortgage rate. Some of my friends worry about this, I just watch them. I have much bigger fish to fry.
OldArmyCT
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AG
Have you considered using your company stock inside your 401-K?
https://www.fidelity.com/learning-center/personal-finance/retirement/company-stock
JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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AG
Petrino1 said:

JDCAG (NOT Colin) said:

Petrino1 said:

JDCAG (NOT Colin) said:

infinity ag said:

Pepper Brooks said:

My guess is most will tell you that the right answer is to keep paying the minimum and put that money to work somewhere that earns >2.5% interest.

However, the value of that feeling of being debt free, owning your home outright, and hitting your milestone is incalculable. I personally think you're justified either way.

Edit: IB4 "you never truly own a home in TX due to property taxes". Blah blah.

Exactly right.
I had a low rate mortgage for a house I bought in 2010 and put down 20%. I aggressively paid off and completed all payments in 2018. Debt free completely, no loans since. Feels SO GOOD. Especially since I got laid off multiple times since and am even now looking for a job.

The feeling of being debt free is great. Yes, maybe I could put the money in the market and made x%. But that doesn't make me debt free. It is a mental thing. But whatever makes the OP happy. I have friends who pay minimum on all loans and invest everything. Sometimes they make losses and are on the hook for the debt and the losses.


It's always fascinating to me how different folks can view the same things in such different ways.

To me, the idea that you may get laid off soon does not equate to me wanting to have a mortgage free home. That makes me want to have liquidity. Let's say you can pay off $50k of a mortgage that is running you $1,500/month. Recouping that $50k via the lack of $1,500 per month in payments is going to take you several years. If an emergency hits and you try to extract that value out of your home, you're likely doing so at a much higher interest rate than what you gave up when you paid it off.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but this is why I've always struggled when people point to future unexpected trials (job loss, major emergency expense, etc.) as a reason to be happy their home is paid off. I totally get why it makes sense to have $X in cash with your house paid off vs $X in cash with a house payment, but I don't think I've seen an explanation where giving up a good chunk of cash to pay off a mortgage has led to being more able to weather a situation that comes in the future (assuming we're talking about an environment where mortgage rate is lower or on par with basic FDIC insured accounts).

That said, I understand there is emotional value to people in seeing the number go away.
Its not so black and white, a lot of folks have plenty of cash savings and taxable investments where they can weather a layoff or an unexpected emergency. A monthly mortgage/rent is typically a person's largest monthly expense. If you can eliminate your largest monthly expense, you will be in a much better position if you ever get laid off or have an expected emergency because your monthly expenses are lower. I would rather not have to pay a $2-3k per month mortgage if I get laid off.

Although, I do see your point. As always, it depends on a person's financial situation. For some it might be better to put the money to work, for others it might make more sense to pay off the mortgage. With that said, being debt free is never a bad thing.


I guess where I get lost is these arguments seem to ignore the fact that you have a boatload of cash going away when you pay off the mortgage. Put another way, I'd rather pay $2-3k/month while having $50k in the bank than pay $0/month (for mortgage) while having $5k in the bank.

Who is better prepared to withstand a 3 month job hunt?

Person A: $1,500/month mortgage, $50k cash
Person B: $0/month mortgage, $0 cash

Since we're simply talking about whether the person pays off their mortgage, you can assume things like rainy day funds are all equal. At absolute worst, they're in "equal" positions (if they have enough cash to where it doesn't matter either way). But the person with the cash can handle several years worth of mortgage payments sitting in cash.

Every argument I see for clearing the mortgage putting you in "better position" seems to be acting as if there is no cost to doing so - i.e. they act like the person with the mortgage doesn't still have that same cash sitting aside.

Now, if the argument is pay off your mortgage or go spend the money on trips, cars, house projects, etc. then I totally understand.

But I guess that is why I think this is mostly an emotional decision, cause I just don't see a situation where financially it puts you in "safer" or "better" position. Just that it takes some emotional weight off of your shoulders - totally valid and fine if that is what somebody is after.

Even more so because if you opt to payoff your mortgage, it's done. If you opt to sit tight, you can always make the move tomorrow if financial conditions make it more advantageous.
I mean who is going to use their entire cash savings to pay off their mortgage? Of course, no one would advise a person to do that.

How about if a person has $50k cash savings, $2MM net worth, gets a $50k bonus, and has $50k left on the mortgage. I think in that scenario it makes sense to pay off the mortgage.

Every situation is different and its impossible to give blanket advice without knowing the specifics.


I guess that's my point.

This isn't a "you're better off paying off the mortgage" situation.

This is a "you have enough to where you can do whatever you want and neither choice will have an impact on your finances" situation.

I can't think of a single scenario, outside of having a mortgage with a very high rate, where it is better on paper to pay off the mortgage. Just scenarios where you're fine either way, so do it if being "debt free" is an important milestone for you.

infinity ag
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JDCAG (NOT Colin) said:

Petrino1 said:

JDCAG (NOT Colin) said:

Petrino1 said:

JDCAG (NOT Colin) said:

infinity ag said:

Pepper Brooks said:

My guess is most will tell you that the right answer is to keep paying the minimum and put that money to work somewhere that earns >2.5% interest.

However, the value of that feeling of being debt free, owning your home outright, and hitting your milestone is incalculable. I personally think you're justified either way.

Edit: IB4 "you never truly own a home in TX due to property taxes". Blah blah.

Exactly right.
I had a low rate mortgage for a house I bought in 2010 and put down 20%. I aggressively paid off and completed all payments in 2018. Debt free completely, no loans since. Feels SO GOOD. Especially since I got laid off multiple times since and am even now looking for a job.

The feeling of being debt free is great. Yes, maybe I could put the money in the market and made x%. But that doesn't make me debt free. It is a mental thing. But whatever makes the OP happy. I have friends who pay minimum on all loans and invest everything. Sometimes they make losses and are on the hook for the debt and the losses.


It's always fascinating to me how different folks can view the same things in such different ways.

To me, the idea that you may get laid off soon does not equate to me wanting to have a mortgage free home. That makes me want to have liquidity. Let's say you can pay off $50k of a mortgage that is running you $1,500/month. Recouping that $50k via the lack of $1,500 per month in payments is going to take you several years. If an emergency hits and you try to extract that value out of your home, you're likely doing so at a much higher interest rate than what you gave up when you paid it off.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but this is why I've always struggled when people point to future unexpected trials (job loss, major emergency expense, etc.) as a reason to be happy their home is paid off. I totally get why it makes sense to have $X in cash with your house paid off vs $X in cash with a house payment, but I don't think I've seen an explanation where giving up a good chunk of cash to pay off a mortgage has led to being more able to weather a situation that comes in the future (assuming we're talking about an environment where mortgage rate is lower or on par with basic FDIC insured accounts).

That said, I understand there is emotional value to people in seeing the number go away.
Its not so black and white, a lot of folks have plenty of cash savings and taxable investments where they can weather a layoff or an unexpected emergency. A monthly mortgage/rent is typically a person's largest monthly expense. If you can eliminate your largest monthly expense, you will be in a much better position if you ever get laid off or have an expected emergency because your monthly expenses are lower. I would rather not have to pay a $2-3k per month mortgage if I get laid off.

Although, I do see your point. As always, it depends on a person's financial situation. For some it might be better to put the money to work, for others it might make more sense to pay off the mortgage. With that said, being debt free is never a bad thing.


I guess where I get lost is these arguments seem to ignore the fact that you have a boatload of cash going away when you pay off the mortgage. Put another way, I'd rather pay $2-3k/month while having $50k in the bank than pay $0/month (for mortgage) while having $5k in the bank.

Who is better prepared to withstand a 3 month job hunt?

Person A: $1,500/month mortgage, $50k cash
Person B: $0/month mortgage, $0 cash

Since we're simply talking about whether the person pays off their mortgage, you can assume things like rainy day funds are all equal. At absolute worst, they're in "equal" positions (if they have enough cash to where it doesn't matter either way). But the person with the cash can handle several years worth of mortgage payments sitting in cash.

Every argument I see for clearing the mortgage putting you in "better position" seems to be acting as if there is no cost to doing so - i.e. they act like the person with the mortgage doesn't still have that same cash sitting aside.

Now, if the argument is pay off your mortgage or go spend the money on trips, cars, house projects, etc. then I totally understand.

But I guess that is why I think this is mostly an emotional decision, cause I just don't see a situation where financially it puts you in "safer" or "better" position. Just that it takes some emotional weight off of your shoulders - totally valid and fine if that is what somebody is after.

Even more so because if you opt to payoff your mortgage, it's done. If you opt to sit tight, you can always make the move tomorrow if financial conditions make it more advantageous.
I mean who is going to use their entire cash savings to pay off their mortgage? Of course, no one would advise a person to do that.

How about if a person has $50k cash savings, $2MM net worth, gets a $50k bonus, and has $50k left on the mortgage. I think in that scenario it makes sense to pay off the mortgage.

Every situation is different and its impossible to give blanket advice without knowing the specifics.


I guess that's my point.

This isn't a "you're better off paying off the mortgage" situation.

This is a "you have enough to where you can do whatever you want and neither choice will have an impact on your finances" situation.

I can't think of a single scenario, outside of having a mortgage with a very high rate, where it is better on paper to pay off the mortgage. Just scenarios where you're fine either way, so do it if being "debt free" is an important milestone for you.



This is a "what do I do that makes sense for me" question.

The scenario is you make $1MM a year . Your house is worth $2MM and you have $1MM to go. Do you make minimum payments for another 20 years or you say F it and just make the 1MM payment and be done with the hassle?
With this kind of cash on you, it seems to be more of a hassle to deal with the loan. Imagine if you have 10 such loans for various things, it is a full time job to manage it. You have to make sure you have enough in your bank to pay every month so you cannot invest that money.

I personally prefer situations where I have only assets and no liabilities more than lot more assets and some liabilities. Just to make life easier.
southernboy1
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AG
Y'all people make me think more than I should. I have a 401 at my previous company that is making money. It's at 60k. If I take it they taxes are about 10k. My mortgage is at 68k. So I'll have to pay 10k to pay the mortgage off. I have, it but lose money on that but have the satisfaction of no mortgage. Then the back doors and doubles. SOB. And lol.
ac04
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not 100% sure i follow but my advice is don't do any of that.
southernboy1
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AG
It's a position of where individuals are at. This thread is a great thing for us that are not that much on the financial side of knowledge. It is all appreciated. In the long run it's a life decision for all of us.





CS78
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Didn't read other responses. Cash out your stock gains but dont pay off the house. Invest elsewhere.
jja79
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AG
Seems you've done a great job managing your finances. Do what makes you most comfortable.
infinity ag
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CS78 said:

Didn't read other responses. Cash out your stock gains but dont pay off the house. Invest elsewhere.

What if you invest and lose the money? Now you don't have the investment and you have debt of the house.

That is the calculation one needs to make. If you pay 2% mortgage and make 5% risk free outside, then go right ahead and not pay off.
If that is not the case, then you have to think harder.
Jason Ag
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AG
infinity ag said:

CS78 said:

Didn't read other responses. Cash out your stock gains but dont pay off the house. Invest elsewhere.

What if you invest and lose the money? Now you don't have the investment and you have debt of the house.

That is the calculation one needs to make. If you pay 2% mortgage and make 5% risk free outside, then go right ahead and not pay off.
If that is not the case, then you have to think harder.


My old boss took out a ton of money on his paid off house dumped in the stock market right before the recent crash. Now things have rebounded, but it was a lot of stress and he said it felt like he was gambling with his house. Caused some marital tension too.
Diggity
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AG
I'm really not seeing the great "hassle" of paying a mortgage.

You can set it up for autopay so about all you need to do each month is make sure you have enough money in whatever account it's pulling from.
Diggity
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AG
Jason Ag said:

infinity ag said:

CS78 said:

Didn't read other responses. Cash out your stock gains but dont pay off the house. Invest elsewhere.

What if you invest and lose the money? Now you don't have the investment and you have debt of the house.

That is the calculation one needs to make. If you pay 2% mortgage and make 5% risk free outside, then go right ahead and not pay off.
If that is not the case, then you have to think harder.


My old boss took out a ton of money on his paid off house dumped in the stock market right before the recent crash. Now things have rebounded, but it was a lot of stress and he said it felt like he was gambling with his house. Caused some marital tension too.
which crash was that?
infinity ag
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Jason Ag said:

infinity ag said:

CS78 said:

Didn't read other responses. Cash out your stock gains but dont pay off the house. Invest elsewhere.

What if you invest and lose the money? Now you don't have the investment and you have debt of the house.

That is the calculation one needs to make. If you pay 2% mortgage and make 5% risk free outside, then go right ahead and not pay off.
If that is not the case, then you have to think harder.


My old boss took out a ton of money on his paid off house dumped in the stock market right before the recent crash. Now things have rebounded, but it was a lot of stress and he said it felt like he was gambling with his house. Caused some marital tension too.

Some friends of mine who also paid off their houses suggested that in our conversations. I said NO! I am not doing it and I strictly recommend against it. Stock market is a gamble, don't do it and risk a life on the streets. And if one does it, never tell the wife. Women are generally risk-averse and this will freak them out (rightly so). Even though I invest in the market and sometimes do risky investments, it makes my stomach turn at times. I don't tell the wife as she will make me sell (at a loss). If I hang in there, I almost always make a nice profit.
infinity ag
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Diggity said:

I'm really not seeing the great "hassle" of paying a mortgage.

You can set it up for autopay so about all you need to do each month is make sure you have enough money in whatever account it's pulling from.

In that case, just go ahead.
Take out all your money from your house and put it in the market. Enjoy! Life is short.

On a serious note, it is not a hassle for you because you are a lolpoor. Your time is cheap. Not much value. Worthless.

Ask Bill Gates or Elon Musk, They makes a lot of money every second of their life. It is a hassle for them to do this autopay nonsense. The money they "save" doing autopay tricks, they could be spending making many billions.
tgivaughn
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AG
History: when stock market grew very slowly, pre-1980
Dad VP NY Stock Brokerage, raised Republican = always pay cash, never borrow, save up, then buy ANYthing
soooo hated his house mortgage that began as a great find/deal, primo real estate, orig.owner backed out of this new build. He wanted to own it lock stock barrel. So he sold some stocks and did it when ~50yo.

It wasn't 5 years later when he put on his 20-20 hindsight glasses & calculated those stocks in this new era that could have paid off the house and still had some shares left that produced dividends. UGH.

Can't predict the future, not a financial advisor - but seen them talk some of my clients out of VERY good real estate deals past - but .... I ..... might start looking heavily at Roth contributions or new, segregated real estate investments. not Owning this house ... yet. If IT goes South, THEN maybe cash some stocks to be mort.free.monthly.

Side note: some have traded their house for a downsized one they completely own w/surplus cash when the kids go off to pre-paid/scholarship colleges. That said, the wives all want their retirement home to be larger one ala Motel 6 with grand kitchen & long table for coming home holidays, kids' families. haha
Ten words or less ... a goal unattainable
aggiebrad16
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AG
Can I ask a question? I may have had to many beers last night so forgive me… but why 1/36?
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