Early in the thread I posted some anecdotal experiences from having been in banking going back to 1979. One was a couple in Kingwood, the good part of Kingwood, needing to take cash out of their house to pay off credit cards and pay for a daughter's wedding. At 69 years old they're looking to increase their mortgage to more than it was when they first bought the house 10 years ago. This was in the last couple of weeks. People would be surprised at the debt load people they know are carrying.AgCPA95 said:And weddings. A lady I used to work with was still paying off her "wedding credit card" (that is actually what she called it) 7 years later. I wanted to vomit. This wasn't a single mom left with kids or something as she was low 6 figure earner and her husband had a decent job as well.TREX01 said:
People finance vacations at a staggering rate these days.
Is everybody in debt?
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The average marriage in teh US lasts about 8 years. So there's a decent chance the credit card debt lasted longer than the marriage.AgCPA95 said:
A lady I used to work with was still paying off her "wedding credit card" (that is actually what she called it) 7 years later.
TXTransplant said:ag94whoop said:YouBet said:Disagree. I grew up solidly middle class and not rich at all.gig em 02 said:ChoppinDs40 said:
If both people work it's not hard at all for 2 professionals to be pulling in $300k plus in Texas's big cities. Locked in mortgage at prepandemic prices? That's a lot of discretionary spending available.
And when debt has been so cheap, why not use it? Obviously need to use it intelligently. My mortgage is 30yr at 2.5% - I'm not paying that down "sooner" to save on effective interest rate of 1.8%. But also put back ~65k/ year in 401k/HSA/other investments and have a decent emergency savings fund in cash.
Leverage away!
When people say things like this I know they grew up rich and haven't spent much time around the middle class. $300k combined household income is less than 10% of the population. According to the link I posted below $227,000 puts you in the 95th percentile in Dallas.
Parents with large retirement accounts that are sending money to their kids before they die is probably less than 5% of the population. I'm jealous of people that see the world this way because it means they've never even recognized the existence of 95% of the country.
Look at the actual statistics on savings and income. If all these people are so financially savvy why are 72 month car loans standard? It's not a bunch of millionaire next doors driving those raptors you see everywhere.
Disney world has been operating at full capacity. Who is voting for Biden if that many people are that financially well off?
https://statisticalatlas.com/metro-area/Texas/Dallas/Household-Income
If both of you have degrees and get into corporate and stick with it, it's not that hard to be making that kind of money in your 30s and 40s. My first job out of college paid me about $25K and I got there. It's actually a pretty easy formula if you stick with it. Most people either don't stick with it for various reasons or they do stick with it and then just blow all the money they make.
Or they didn't marry someone doing the same thing.. I know many people including myself married to teachers. But also many whose wives are nurses, vet assistants, dental hygienists, and thousands of other careers that don't pay six figures. I would say it's drastically more common for HH income to be under $150k than over $300k.
I do agree that if someone gets into corporate America and just stays put, generally speaking they ride the train to larger salaries and bigger retirement. I've seen this with Microsoft, AT&T, SAP, GE etc. Some people just hate the politics or the environment or simply the "glass building people". There are many ways to make money and build wealth, and honestly a lot of definitions of what makes a person rich. Imo debt is ok if you are disciplined enough to manage your savings and investments, but many people aren't. It's safer to limit or eliminate debt.
I think this is an important point. I actually have very few friends, acquaintances, and coworkers where both spouses are high income earners ($150k+).
I have quite a few friends from college who are women and are the "main breadwinner" for the family.
Most of my coworkers/colleagues are men with wives who SAH. Same with neighbors. Or if the wife does work, she's a teacher or works part time.
I know several couples where one spouse (both husbands and wives) stepped back from their career specifically so the other could advance (which usually involved a major move/relocation where job opportunities were limited for the other spouse).
I think part of the reason for this is it's hard for two people in a couple to simultaneously have lucrative careers in corporate America for the very reason I listed above. At least in my industry, climbing the corporate ladder usually means at least one (maybe more) major relocation.
Heck, I'm an individual contributor, but to get here required me to reinvent my career (and move) twice.
The few couples I've known who did achieve this either had one spouse with a very flexible job (even before Covid) or they've elected to decline any moves/relocations, which has effectively put a ceiling on their earnings (but as engineers, this ceiling is still pretty high compared to most).
And I would say most of the highly educated women I know have stepped back from their careers at some point, at least temporarily (some long-term/permanently), after getting married and having kids.
Agree with all of this. We realized during Covid being home all the time that both of us being high earners on the corporate rat race wheel was not ideal. Lo and behold a Covid early retirement package got offered as an option and I decided to take it. Wife made more money and had a higher ceiling so it made sense for me to leave and strike out on my own.
Our main problem now is that my wife wants out now too. Lol.
coastalAg said:
I'm paying $600 a month for my 4 year old in McKinney. Church pre schools are definitely the way to go.
Not many churches in PDX.
We're at $1,600 for our 3 yr old at Goddard. So over it. Need to find another option but everyone is full and Goddard has been great for her.
This was a well thought out plan for us to put kids in daycare and wife keep working. Did you not run through the numbers?RangerRick9211 said:coastalAg said:
I'm paying $600 a month for my 4 year old in McKinney. Church pre schools are definitely the way to go.
Not many churches in PDX.
We're at $1,600 for our 3 yr old at Goddard. So over it. Need to find another option but everyone is full and Goddard has been great for her.
We paid ~$130k in daycare in 6 years for 2 kids born 15 months apart. For us it made sense, since wife is in a state education pension, and losing 6-7 years is a lot of money on the back end.
62strat said:This was a well thought out plan for us to put kids in daycare and wife keep working. Did you not run through the numbers?RangerRick9211 said:coastalAg said:
I'm paying $600 a month for my 4 year old in McKinney. Church pre schools are definitely the way to go.
Not many churches in PDX.
We're at $1,600 for our 3 yr old at Goddard. So over it. Need to find another option but everyone is full and Goddard has been great for her.
We paid ~$130k in daycare in 6 years for 2 kids born 15 months apart. For us it made sense, since wife is in a state education pension, and losing 6-7 years is a lot of money on the back end.
There's no numbers to run. She makes plenty enough that the answer was obvious. It's just a lot.
62strat said:This was a well thought out plan for us to put kids in daycare and wife keep working. Did you not run through the numbers?RangerRick9211 said:coastalAg said:
I'm paying $600 a month for my 4 year old in McKinney. Church pre schools are definitely the way to go.
Not many churches in PDX.
We're at $1,600 for our 3 yr old at Goddard. So over it. Need to find another option but everyone is full and Goddard has been great for her.
We paid ~$130k in daycare in 6 years for 2 kids born 15 months apart. For us it made sense, since wife is in a state education pension, and losing 6-7 years is a lot of money on the back end.
Similar boat.
Total change if topic but most people think daycare is just someone to change your kids diaper and feed them.
As a child/family of educators, seeing the development your child receives at a top daycare/preschool can be pretty phenomenal. I know lots of people think their wife is the best person to develop their child but let's be honest.
How many kids of SAHM's live on an iPad, have no ability to socially interact and go into K or Pre-K with very little knowledge? Tons. At kinder screeners my wife sees kids that can read and kids that don't even know what the alphabet is… guess which ones are daycare and which ones aren't? Generalization but we enjoy having our child in a very structured environment that we trust. Seeing her development mentally and socially has been awesome.
ChoppinDs40 said:62strat said:This was a well thought out plan for us to put kids in daycare and wife keep working. Did you not run through the numbers?RangerRick9211 said:coastalAg said:
I'm paying $600 a month for my 4 year old in McKinney. Church pre schools are definitely the way to go.
Not many churches in PDX.
We're at $1,600 for our 3 yr old at Goddard. So over it. Need to find another option but everyone is full and Goddard has been great for her.
We paid ~$130k in daycare in 6 years for 2 kids born 15 months apart. For us it made sense, since wife is in a state education pension, and losing 6-7 years is a lot of money on the back end.
Similar boat.
Total change if topic but most people think daycare is just someone to change your kids diaper and feed them.
As a child/family of educators, seeing the development your child receives at a top daycare/preschool can be pretty phenomenal. I know lots of people think their wife is the best person to develop their child but let's be honest.
How many kids of SAHM's live on an iPad, have no ability to socially interact and go into K or Pre-K with very little knowledge? Tons. At kinder screeners my wife sees kids that can read and kids that don't even know what the alphabet is… guess which ones are daycare and which ones aren't? Generalization but we enjoy having our child in a very structured environment that we trust. Seeing her development mentally and socially has been awesome.
We love her teacher and the curriculum at Goddard. She has a friend group which we hang out with after school and weekends. Just being honest with ourselves, we probably wouldn't have done as good a job had one of us stayed at home.
But we're full gas parents mornings, evenings and weekends. When we're on, we're on since time is so limited with her. And we still reserve the right to keep her out on days. Wife kept her out today (she has a bomb schedule) and they hit the Washougal River for the day.
What is the source for that statistic? I'm very curious how it is calculated.tysker said:The average marriage in teh US lasts about 8 years. So there's a decent chance the credit card debt lasted longer than the marriage.AgCPA95 said:
A lady I used to work with was still paying off her "wedding credit card" (that is actually what she called it) 7 years later.
GE said:What is the source for that statistic? I'm very curious how it is calculated.tysker said:The average marriage in teh US lasts about 8 years. So there's a decent chance the credit card debt lasted longer than the marriage.AgCPA95 said:
A lady I used to work with was still paying off her "wedding credit card" (that is actually what she called it) 7 years later.
Average time in a home before you move is 7 years according to my old banker. Wonder if it's related.
YouBet said:GE said:What is the source for that statistic? I'm very curious how it is calculated.tysker said:The average marriage in teh US lasts about 8 years. So there's a decent chance the credit card debt lasted longer than the marriage.AgCPA95 said:
A lady I used to work with was still paying off her "wedding credit card" (that is actually what she called it) 7 years later.
Average time in a home before you move is 7 years according to my old banker. Wonder if it's related.
We tripled the average lol. Woohoo!
Married 26 yrs and 23 of them in this small starter home we never left (paid it off and never moved).
Proposition Joe said:
It's absolutely a "when" and not an "if".
But much like the stock market, trying to predict "when" is something few have proven to be able to do. Be ready for it, but don't count on it happening next year or even next 10 years.
Exactly. Renters like me in HCOL areas are in a tough position. You don't want to keep renting but it's not a buyer's market right now either.
To be honest, I'd welcome the recession. I've got cash at the ready.
GE said:What is the source for that statistic? I'm very curious how it is calculated.tysker said:The average marriage in teh US lasts about 8 years. So there's a decent chance the credit card debt lasted longer than the marriage.AgCPA95 said:
A lady I used to work with was still paying off her "wedding credit card" (that is actually what she called it) 7 years later.
I cant say I read the data just repeating what it generally accepted. But given that about half of the marriages end in divorce and that having one divorce often leads to more it seems the large number of short marriages brings the average down.
https://www.lawinfo.com/resources/divorce/how-long-does-the-average-marriage-last.html
jja79 said:Early in the thread I posted some anecdotal experiences from having been in banking going back to 1979. One was a couple in Kingwood, the good part of Kingwood, needing to take cash out of their house to pay off credit cards and pay for a daughter's wedding. At 69 years old they're looking to increase their mortgage to more than it was when they first bought the house 10 years ago. This was in the last couple of weeks. People would be surprised at the debt load people they know are carrying.AgCPA95 said:And weddings. A lady I used to work with was still paying off her "wedding credit card" (that is actually what she called it) 7 years later. I wanted to vomit. This wasn't a single mom left with kids or something as she was low 6 figure earner and her husband had a decent job as well.TREX01 said:
People finance vacations at a staggering rate these days.
Keep 'em coming !
Savings by Age in USA
On average, Americans have around $141,542 saved up for retirement, according to the "How America Saves 2022" report compiled by Vanguard, an investment firm that represents more than 30 million investors.
However, most people likely have much less:
The median 401(k) balance is just $35,345.
That means half of account balances are lower than this amount and half are higher. And since averages can be skewed by a few outliers, the median account balance is considered to be more representative of what most people actually have saved in their 401(k) accounts.
On average, Americans have around $141,542 saved up for retirement, according to the "How America Saves 2022" report compiled by Vanguard, an investment firm that represents more than 30 million investors.
However, most people likely have much less:
The median 401(k) balance is just $35,345.
That means half of account balances are lower than this amount and half are higher. And since averages can be skewed by a few outliers, the median account balance is considered to be more representative of what most people actually have saved in their 401(k) accounts.
Just curious if you know how many Americans have access to 401k accounts. I doubt it changes the stats much but there are probably some number of Americans using other retirement saving vehicles (perhaps IRAs or just taxable brokerage accounts)?
Another factor when looking at 401k savings... People job hop all the time and start new 401Ks. So the numbers are going to be skewed on the low side for median.
Thanks. It's what I suspected - that stat is for the average length of marriages that end in divorce. The marriage stats in general are very misleading.
I do mortgage and custom construction lending so when I work with people I see debts and assets. One thing that strikes me besides how much consumer debt even high income people have is how many 55+ have less than 6 figures in retirement.
It probably means I'm a bad person but jja79's posts on this subject always make me feel really good about where we are.
Off topic entirely but what kind of rates are you seeing on custom construction loans these days?jja79 said:
I do mortgage and custom construction lending so when I work with people I see debts and assets. One thing that strikes me besides how much consumer debt even high income people have is how many 55+ have less than 6 figures in retirement.
LostInLA07 said:
Just curious if you know how many Americans have access to 401k accounts. I doubt it changes the stats much but there are probably some number of Americans using other retirement saving vehicles (perhaps IRAs or just taxable brokerage accounts)?
The other analysis out there is done by the federal government and it's not much better. Median retirement savings is $80-85k. I think that one includes sources beyond 401k which is why it's a little higher.
These numbers don't surprise me at all. Another startling figure is that 50% of people have literally 0 in retirement.
My mission is to emulate you.MAS444 said:
It probably means I'm a bad person but jja79's posts on this subject always make me feel really good about where we are.
We're at 4.5%, 0 points today. The Treasury market isn't favorable today for what it's worth.
Quote:
As a child/family of educators, seeing the development your child receives at a top daycare/preschool can be pretty phenomenal. I know lots of people think their wife is the best person to develop their child but let's be honest.
It felt so wrong to send our kids to daycare, since that is not how I was raised or thought my parenthood would play out. Now, with my kids older and entering high school - they're development, them understanding different stimulating environments, other behaviors and personalities, allowing them to find things to explore, understanding a routine, rules, etc...that daycare experience was the best thing possible. They would not have had all that at the level they had it being at home and doing play dates with other SAHMs. That's just a fact. I came out on this side with the opinion that daycare is all around better for child development...now of course there are different levels of daycare, so that is key to all of this, yes.
seems like it's backwards to me to be related.YouBet said:GE said:What is the source for that statistic? I'm very curious how it is calculated.tysker said:The average marriage in teh US lasts about 8 years. So there's a decent chance the credit card debt lasted longer than the marriage.AgCPA95 said:
A lady I used to work with was still paying off her "wedding credit card" (that is actually what she called it) 7 years later.
Average time in a home before you move is 7 years according to my old banker. Wonder if it's related.
Divorce happens, then they both sell the home.
Thanks
Like caliber said, when people leave a job, they generally roll the old 401(k) into an IRA.Quote:
The median 401(k) balance is just $35,345.
That means half of account balances are lower than this amount and half are higher. And since averages can be skewed by a few outliers, the median account balance is considered to be more representative of what most people actually have saved in their 401(k) accounts.
I don't know that this stat really tells a true picture.
For reference, I have 7 figure net worth at 42, but my 401(k) balance is $0, because I don't have a current one with my employer. My wife is pension, and my current employer gives 15% profit sharing into self directed retirement account that isn't a 401(k).
My 401(k) from my 20s I had for about 5 years before leaving, I rolled it over into IRA. It was roughly $30k when I left, it's over $100k now.
My parents put me in preschool (legit preschool) when I was about 3. This was the early 80s when no one really did this.
It was the single best decision they could have made for me. For a variety of reasons I won't go into here, I can say with confidence that decision set me on the path to where I am today.
So, when my son was born, I had absolutely no qualms about sending him to daycare (as an infant) or preschool. It always ticks me off when I see posters say that daycare and preschool is just for parents too lazy/selfish to raise their own kids. Nothing could be further from the truth.
It was the single best decision they could have made for me. For a variety of reasons I won't go into here, I can say with confidence that decision set me on the path to where I am today.
So, when my son was born, I had absolutely no qualms about sending him to daycare (as an infant) or preschool. It always ticks me off when I see posters say that daycare and preschool is just for parents too lazy/selfish to raise their own kids. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Maybe it's regional, or just some other geographical thing, but every couple I know in my neighborhood where the wife worked sent their kids to daycare/preschool. Most wives seem to work where we live. On our street we have a lawyer, a few teachers, an interior designer who works for lockheed, a realtor, etc..TXTransplant said:
So, when my son was born, I had absolutely no qualms about sending him to daycare (as an infant) or preschool. It always ticks me off when I see posters say that daycare and preschool is just for parents too lazy/selfish to raise their own kids. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I've never heard of people looking down on parents who put kids in preschool. I do think the kids where mom didn't work and 'home schooled' them, you can definitely tell. They are behind in math, reading and speech compared to those who did preschool.
But, while that seems detrimental to a kid at first thought, I feel most of them catch up in due time. Just like a 3-4 year old can learn to read in preschool, a 5 or 6 year old can, probably even quicker, learn in in K or 1st.
My kids are 1st and 2nd, and they are so far past what the school is doing in math.. seriously in 1st they are still adding/subtracting up to 10. My oldest, last year in 1st could spout off multiplications up to 10.
So, not sure if it even matters that they were far ahead, now they are just bored. Luckily they do a thing where the handful of kids that are way further along are set aside with a separate teacher/helper to keep them on the track that they are on.
I went to preschool as a kid too in early 80s, I think 2 years.
Another thought, 'daycare' seems to have a negative connotation. There are no facilities around me that are labeled as 'daycare'. They are all preschool, childhood development, etc. My wife and I joke that around where we lived in Houston, there were places we'd call 'keep your kid alive' daycare. It's just that, they feed and change them. You aren't paying to have licensed teachers, like the preschool my kids went to. 100% licensed, hence the cost.
Startling and scary. You know those people will expect a handout when it comes time for consequences for irresponsible decision making (I realize some are forced to save little to nothing, but many are just irresponsible).YouBet said:LostInLA07 said:
Just curious if you know how many Americans have access to 401k accounts. I doubt it changes the stats much but there are probably some number of Americans using other retirement saving vehicles (perhaps IRAs or just taxable brokerage accounts)?
The other analysis out there is done by the federal government and it's not much better. Median retirement savings is $80-85k. I think that one includes sources beyond 401k which is why it's a little higher.
These numbers don't surprise me at all. Another startling figure is that 50% of people have literally 0 in retirement.
Good point about preschool not really being the advantage that it used to be. My son sounds a lot like your kids - school has always been pretty easy for him (at least until he started taking calculus, chemistry, and physics).
There was no kinder when I was a kid. But after however many years in pre-school, I was reading well above my level, could do multiplication, and knew all of my state capitals and many country capitals.
My parents had me tested before enrolling me anywhere, and I did really well. Thankfully, the public school district agreed to promote me to 2nd grade. I was also put in enrichment (what gifted and talented was called back in the day). They really wanted me to go to private Catholic school, but they wouldn't even entertain the thought of me skipping a grade. So, 11 years of public education for me, and then I went on to a public university.
There was no kinder when I was a kid. But after however many years in pre-school, I was reading well above my level, could do multiplication, and knew all of my state capitals and many country capitals.
My parents had me tested before enrolling me anywhere, and I did really well. Thankfully, the public school district agreed to promote me to 2nd grade. I was also put in enrichment (what gifted and talented was called back in the day). They really wanted me to go to private Catholic school, but they wouldn't even entertain the thought of me skipping a grade. So, 11 years of public education for me, and then I went on to a public university.
62strat said:Like caliber said, when people leave a job, they generally roll the old 401(k) into an IRA.Quote:
The median 401(k) balance is just $35,345.
That means half of account balances are lower than this amount and half are higher. And since averages can be skewed by a few outliers, the median account balance is considered to be more representative of what most people actually have saved in their 401(k) accounts.
I don't know that this stat really tells a true picture.
For reference, I have $1m net worth at 42, and my 401(k) balance is $0, because I don't have a current one. My wife is pension, and my current employer gives 15% profit sharing into self directed retirement account that isn't a 401(k).
My 401(k) from my 20s I had for about 5 years before leaving, I rolled it over into IRA. It was roughly $30k when I left, it's over $100k now.
On rolling 401ks to IRAs when leaving jobs my money conversations with coworkers and others is that is seems like a lot of people cashed them out. Would be interesting to see % of cash outs.
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