BTC isn't the cause of their current financial issues.

[DB] FTX walked away from a deal with Celsius after seeing state of its finances: The Block

— db (@tier10k) June 30, 2022

Voyager just suspended all transactions from their platform… yikes

****ers

LatinAggie1997 said:

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I don't trade and I don't care about technical analysis, that's just me. I care about the fundamentals and the vision. I too dislike the ever growing token count as I believe there are now over 9,000

I believe we will eventually have 8-10 ecosystems and that is it. Everything is will fail, be absorbed, or merge. Imo, all crypto will be big box with no mom and pop. We will see "groups/departments" that work independently but fall under one of the mains.


Just my opinion.

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I believe we are in the early stages of my prediction and this bear cycle will catapult the space into an regulated 8-10 spectrum of utility specific ecosystems.

You'll have unregistered securities and bitcoin.

another crypto brokerage collapsing and stealing client's money

I have made 7 transfers from coinbase to a new Ledger Nano wallet- think I will go in today on my day off and finish moving as much as I can from coinbase to hard wallet

Voyager Digital going down and taking customers with them

Adverse Event said:

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You'll have unregistered securities and bitcoin.

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Unsure about a blanket unregistered securities label...the space is evolving and growing... I think there will be a new category, or multiple, depending on utility...the regulations will be based on specifics to each asset (consumer protection, compliance sanctions, stability, etc.).

Definitely, but one will actually have to produce outside of NGU tech.

Has anyone tried the new cardano bridge with shibu Inu? I'm thinking this could unlock some serious value for both platforms during the next hype cycle.

LatinAggie1997 said:

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Adverse Event said:

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You'll have unregistered securities and bitcoin.

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Unsure about a blanket unregistered securities label...the space is evolving and growing... I think there will be a new category, or multiple, depending on utility...the regulations will be based on specifics to each asset (consumer protection, compliance sanctions, stability, etc.).

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I don't see what the regulatory incentive there is to create preferential pathways for certain companies (ie PoS alts) to offer yield bearing instruments. I get the hopeful narrative put forth by Charles and the rest of the PoS alt community advocating for preferred treatment of yield generated via passive staking, but there's a reason why yield products are regulated the way they are.

From Gensler's perspective, it's less about trying to inhibit the grandeur visions put forth by PoS alt leaders as it is about the consequence of opening pathways for existing companies (ie banks, savings institutions, brokers) to skirt regulation with yield bearing products of their own disguised as PoS alts. He's said this in interviews multiple times over the last couple weeks. And he's right.

There can't be exceptions for certain yield products because it's part of a "crypto" grand plan. The rules have to be consistent or the $100 trillion+ industry of yield bearing products turns into chaos.

Security designation probably wouldn't be the end of the world for Cardano, etc. They would just be more properly defined from a regulatory standpoint and investors would have access to better information to make investment decisions.

When legacy banking is as transparent as crypto I will see I that way. Until then it is preferential treatment ro establishment minded folks because they don't know how to properly categorize crypto, and therfore, they aren't able to form cogent regulatory sentiments.

IMO there is no way to create yield from cryptos without fundamentally altering their primary purpose and scope. Yield requires risk and most cryptos are designed to reduce if not eliminate risk. It seems contradictory and right now the 'risk on' participants are seeing downside effects

Deluxe said:

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LatinAggie1997 said:

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When legacy banking is as transparent as crypto I will see I that way. Until then it is preferential treatment ro establishment minded folks because they don't know how to properly categorize crypto, and therfore, they aren't able to form cogent regulatory sentiments.

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I don't really see how you can look at the current landscape of "crypto" and laud its transparency. To the contrary, most crypto products are opaque and investors would benefit greatly from more disclosure.

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1. You are correct for the entire space.
2. I am correct for specific ecosystems.

It won't be long before there are only double digit ecosystems. I haven't lost money yet due to mostly DD, caution, and luck. I did my research and took the hodl approach. I have my crypto staked and/or in my own wallets.
Spot on - "most crypto projects are opaque "... don't invest in these or understand the risk and limit your exposure.
Again, I choose crypto for what it is and what it wants to be over legacy banking.

Alts are unregistered securities and Gensler is coming for them very soon. Get out of all that garbage

tysker said:

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IMO there is no way to create yield from cryptos without fundamentally altering their primary purpose and scope. Yield requires risk and most cryptos are designed to reduce if not eliminate risk. It seems contradictory and right now the 'risk on' participants are seeing downside effects

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It depends on what you mean by "cryptos". I'm guessing you mean crypto securities like defi products and alts.

Yield generated via defi was a scam and its leaders are about to be thrown in jail. PoS yield is less nefarious but still a yield product nonetheless. It'll be reigned in and re-classed.

I don't think we're that far off from registered Bitcoin yield products from reputable institutions like Fidelity or Citadel, but they'll have to disclose with the SEC how they're achieving their yield. The yield will be based on what % the market is willing to pay to access a loan in Bitcoin. I think that market is going to grow/evolve quite a bit in the coming years.

"Yield generated via defi was a scam and its leaders are about to be thrown in jail. PoS yield is less nefarious but still a yield product nonetheless. It'll be reigned in and re-classed.

I don't think we're that far off from registered Bitcoin yield products from reputable institutions like Fidelity or Citadel, but they'll have to disclose with the SEC how they're achieving their yield. The yield will be based on what % the market is willing to pay to access a loan in Bitcoin. I think that market is going to grow/evolve quite a bit in the coming years."

I agree with almost all of this.
The one way I see it differently - things will be classified differently to serve specific utility and regulations, yes. I believe ecosystems will find a way to leave the power in the hands of the retail consumer without institutional involvement. For example, replace Fidelity with IOG/Cardano.

Deluxe said:

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tysker said:

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IMO there is no way to create yield from cryptos without fundamentally altering their primary purpose and scope. Yield requires risk and most cryptos are designed to reduce if not eliminate risk. It seems contradictory and right now the 'risk on' participants are seeing downside effects

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It depends on what you mean by "cryptos". I'm guessing you mean crypto securities like defi products and alts.

Yield generated via defi was a scam and its leaders are about to be thrown in jail. PoS yield is less nefarious but still a yield product nonetheless. It'll be reigned in and re-classed.

I don't think we're that far off from registered Bitcoin yield products from reputable institutions like Fidelity or Citadel, but they'll have to disclose with the SEC how they're achieving their yield. The yield will be based on what % the market is willing to pay to access a loan in Bitcoin. I think that market is going to grow/evolve quite a bit in the coming years.

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And how do you achieve yield on an asset that is non-fungible? Gold, oil, platinum, and USD are non-yield producing assets and BTC is no different. The related securitized vehicles (eg ETFs) dont produce yield (dividends).

I guess I could see the banks creating BTC swaps or some bonds collateralized by fees and trading income flows, but those are, in my experience, done under a 144A offering and not made available to the public. And the big players don't need BTC except as a latch on product for specific clientele. In fact, a primary (side?) effect of BTC is to remove banks from the money transfer and asset oversight equations, so why would they assist in expediting that process?

tysker said:

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And how do you achieve yield on an asset that is non-fungible? Gold, oil, platinum, and USD are non-yield producing assets and BTC is no different. The related securitized vehicles (eg ETFs) dont produce yield (dividends).

I guess I could see the banks creating BTC swaps or some bonds collateralized by fees and trading income flows, but those are, in my experience, done under a 144A offering and not made available to the public. And the big players don't need BTC except as a latch on product for specific clientele. In fact, a primary (side?) effect of BTC is to remove banks from the money transfer and asset oversight equations, so why would they assist in expediting that process?

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As a caveat, I am not very passionate about evolution of Bitcoin yield markets, so I'm not that interested in trading long-winded posts on this topic.

When you focus on intrinsic aspect of the commodities you listed, you're correct that no yield is produced. (A+ job on distinguishing BTC as a commodity btw). The yield is set via the financialization of the commodity, to the extent that financialization is even feasible.

People get yield on their USD in many financial assets offered by many financial institutions (CDs, money market funds, savings accounts, etc). Just because the intrinsic dollar when thought of as a commodity doesn't generate yield doesn't mean there isn't demand to lend it out. And when demand exists to lend it out, lenders will require yield to part with it for the term of the loan. It's the same idea with Bitcoin. Oil and platinum are more consumable commodities as opposed to "store of value" commodities, so I'd think of them separately.

The main reason someone might want to take a loan in Bitcoin is because they think they can generate a better return deploying the loaned Bitcoin, then pay back the Bitcoin principal at a later date and keep the spread between the return they generated and the interest rate they paid.

How were they generating the return? In a number of ways that are generally unsustainable:

1) Playing the perp spread game when the market was hot offered reasonably high yield, but it doesn't last.
2) Playing the spot/futures spread (generally allows investor to "lock in" a return... traditional finance tactic).
3) Using the loaned Bitcoin as collateral on a defi app to take out another loan and buy more Bitcoin with the expectation that the price will increase between the time you took out the loan and paid it back.
4) Converting the loaned Bitcoin to an alt with staking yield higher than loan interest rate
5) Selling the loaned Bitcoin and shorting it, with intention to buy back later and repay the loan (traditional finance tactic).

I generally loathe all those games and my point in listing them isn't to defend them. Most of Bitcoin's volatility (at least in recent years) can be linked to it's peripheral financialization and corresponding manipulation.

However, I don't think those tactics should be prohibited either. They just shouldn't occur in the confines of an opaque defi structure or alt scheme. If a fund in Fidelity wants to engage in those tactics to generate yield/return, they should be free to do so. But they should have to disclose what they're doing and how they're doing it per regulatory statute.

The market for Bitcoin loans is still very young and evolving based on a number of TBD factors. I could speculate on how I think that will happen but I've already written enough. Happy fourth buddy.

Good stuff. You too pal

I am pondering taking my ETH and transferring it into BTC

is there any way to do this automatically on Coinbase?

or do I have to first sell it all into dollars, then wait, then buy BTC from the dollars?

Voyager filed ch.11 this morning. Ugh

bigcat22 said:

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Voyager filed ch.11 this morning. Ugh

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nothing in the last week of bankruptcies seems to faze the BTC market

I think Sam Fried and his billion dollar investment is propping the markets for now

any idea when Coinbase will allow STAKED ETH 2 to be converted to BTC or back to cash?

NTXAg10 said:

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When/if they release ETH 2.0. There is a non-zero chance that the date gets pushed back into perpetuity and those who fell for the scam are fked.

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luckily I was smart enough to only put a few grand into ETH 2

but if Coinbase refuses to ever return everyone's Ethereum- that means they have completely collapsed and likely brought down much of the crypto market.

I would think that is a not a high probability event.

It's out of coinbases control. All they're doing is more or less hosting a validator node that you are supplying with liquidity. Think of them as a custodian.

Edit: this site explains it better.

https://www.bitstamp.net/markets/eth2/eth/

Quote:

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What is ETH2?

Simply put, ETH2 represents ETH that you have staked on the Ethereum 2.0 network. When you stake ETH, it is permanently locked in a smart contract and a new token is created to represent your stake. That token is called ETH2, because it exists on the Ethereum 2.0 beacon blockchain.
Ethereum 2.0 is a massive set of upgrades for Ethereum that bring a number of improvements to the efficiency, scalability and security of the blockchain. Possibly the biggest change is that Ethereum is transitioning from proof of work to proof of stake the mechanism that makes it possible to stake your ETH and earn rewards.

Important things to know before staking your ETH:

• Staking works by converting ETH into ETH2, which is a new asset on the blockchain
• Holding ETH2 will automatically earn you rewards
• You will not be able to withdraw ETH2 until the Ethereum 2.0 upgrade is complete
• You are able to trade your ETH2 for ETH and vice-versa
• The rewards you earn through staking will be distributed in ETH2R (Ethereum 2.0 Rewards), which is separate asset from ETH2
• You will not be able to withdraw, trade or stake ETH2R until the Ethereum 2.0 upgrade is complete

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QNT lift off!

A year in the making LITH officially migrated to LITX on July 4th.

Friday the 15th will be its first official US Exchange listing on Bitmart.

The LITH/LITX marketplace goes live on July the 26th. Check out the LITH NOANE protocol (patent pending)

Andrew and his team have done a great job over the last 12 months.

Has anyone used Blue Wallet for Bitcoin? Was thinking about moving my bitcoin from Coinbase and Crypto.com to be safe.

I've got staked ETH 2.0 on Coinbase, but i'm guessing I can't move that off the site?