claym711 said:

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So many words to justify, rationalize, and minimize corporate welfare. Keep paying those employment costs. Restaurants appreciate your insecurity.

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You should stop posting on this thread. Literally everything you've said on here shows a lack of understanding of how this stuff actually works. Just quit. Please.

LOYAL AG said:

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claym711 said:

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So many words to justify, rationalize, and minimize corporate welfare. Keep paying those employment costs. Restaurants appreciate your insecurity.

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You should stop posting on this thread. Literally everything you've said on here shows a lack of understanding of how this stuff actually works. Just quit. Please.

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Often when people are confronted by the absurdities of the social norms to which they ascribe, these sort of responses ensue. People desperately try to defend an indefensible position. Herd mentality.

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This really isn't difficult and it baffles me that so many folks don't get it. The American economy is geared to reward hard work, innovation and great service. That's true in all industries, not just restaurants. If the average tip is 15% and you eliminate tips it's a 100% guarantee that the price on the menu will go up 15% to cover the higher fixed wage the business is now paying to it's wait staff. That's not really up for debate. There is no business in the country that is going to have an increase of $5.13/hour for half of it's employees without raising prices. What's also likely to happen is that the quality of service will go down. Wait staff don't make $7.25/hour. The lowest ones I see from my clients make about $10/hour but you can bet your ass that if you force restaurants to cover the cost without tips you're going to see wait staff hiring on at $8/hour and having to work 2+ years to reach the $10/hour level they can make now by earning tips.

Why on earth anyone thinks eliminating reward based compensation is going to have a good result I'll never understand.

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This is a weird argument to me. While there are probably trolls on this thread, I think most people would welcome having the cost rolled into the meal cost. It's pretty dumb to have 2 essentially separate transactions for the same total experience. You aren't eliminating rewards-based compensation. You are just putting it where it belongs - the employer. The customers shouldn't do your job for you, essentially.

I think service will only go down as a function of how much the business cares about that as their image. Now, you maybe right in that what happens is that service goes down because the market dictates that service is an overrated concept. If a business can pay a server $8/hr, get the ****ty service, and still keep butts in the seats...why wouldn't they?

Why don't restaurants just add a flat 15% "service fee"? That would be more honest too what some do by adding a gratuity and then expecting you to pay tip on top of that.

Just have Food cost, tax, service charge, and then your tip. Up front and you are rewarding for good service.I hate giving an arrogant waiter anything. These types deserve $0.

Quote:

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Why don't restaurants just add a flat 15% "service fee"? That would be more honest too what some do by adding a gratuity and then expecting you to pay tip on top of that.

Just have Food cost, tax, service charge, and then your tip. Up front and you are rewarding for good service.I hate giving an arrogant waiter anything. These types deserve $0

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The most honest is rolling into the price of the food. No one likes seeing an advertisement for something and discovering extra costs when you get there.

infinity ag said:

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Why don't restaurants just add a flat 15% "service fee"? That would be more honest too what some do by adding a gratuity and then expecting you to pay tip on top of that.

Just have Food cost, tax, service charge, and then your tip. Up front and you are rewarding for good service.I hate giving an arrogant waiter anything. These types deserve $0.

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Because people like Clay above would ***** and say they shouldn't have to pay a service fee. They also don't think prices would go up 20% if tips were eliminated all together (and expect the same or better service).

One thing I've wondered about recently is how the counter service folks are being paid.

Traditionally, I never even considered tipping them, but in the "Square Era", everyone with an iPad payment system expects 18%-20%-25% it seems. These guys are now getting tipped out pretty decently it would seem, but probably not enough to cover the delta between minimum wage and $2.12 consistently (assuming they're tipping out the kitchen and bus boys).

So are they getting paid $7.25 + tips now? If so, that's a pretty kickass job for a high school kid. Sit there and take orders but never actually have to refill drinks or serve anyone, but still clear $10-15/hour.

claym711 said:

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LOYAL AG said:

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claym711 said:

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So many words to justify, rationalize, and minimize corporate welfare. Keep paying those employment costs. Restaurants appreciate your insecurity.

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You should stop posting on this thread. Literally everything you've said on here shows a lack of understanding of how this stuff actually works. Just quit. Please.

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Often when people are confronted by the absurdities of the social norms to which they ascribe, these sort of responses ensue. People desperately try to defend an indefensible position. Herd mentality.

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100% incorrect. your insistence that tipping is corporate welfare demonstrates no understanding of employment law as it relates to tipped employees. I've laid out the facts more than once on this thread to debunk your position but you insist on continuing to push a false narrative as reason to eliminate the tipping based business model. I don't care about tipping but I do care about accuracy. We can't have an intelligent conversation on the subject if you aren't informed enough to participate.

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So are they getting paid $7.25 + tips now? If so, that's a pretty kickass job for a high school kid. Sit there and take orders but never actually have to refill drinks or serve anyone, but still clear $10-15/hour.

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I don't see counter servers being tipped enough for that happen.

Don't confuse "software companies seeing no value in creating a different version of their platform" with "expecting a tip" either.

That's not true.

The restaurant has the ability to customize those tip % amounts, or not have them on there at all.

And I think you would be surprised with how many people choose to tip because of those screens. They've done studies on it and people are pretty dumb.

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your insistence that tipping is corporate welfare demonstrates no understanding of employment law as it relates to tipped employees. I've laid out the facts more than once on this thread to debunk your position but you insist on continuing to push a false narrative as reason to eliminate the tipping based business model. I don't care about tipping but I do care about accuracy. We can't have an intelligent conversation on the subject if you aren't informed enough to participate.

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I don't see how you've invalidated the idea that its' not corporate welfare just because a business is required to tip up to minimum wage.

Customers are currently expected to "train" your employees for you and risk getting bad service in the process. I am expected to treat (and compensate) your employee like they don't work for you (but for themselves) yet they are also supposed to push your products to help drive the overall ticket up to increase your revenue.

its' nonsensical.

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That's not true.

The restaurant has the ability to customize those tip % amounts, or not have them on there at all.

And I think you would be surprised with how many people choose to tip because of those screens. They've done studies on it and people are pretty dumb.

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You're right, but there's no incentive for the restaurant to not put those up.

If you know they've done studies on this, then why are you asking about it?

It's less dumb people and more the same guilt that was been expressed earlier in this thread.

A) People think if the option is presented to them that it is expected

and

B) People struggle with being face-to-face with someone and having to tell them 'no'. It's many of the same people that give the guy at the gas station that has been needing the same bus fare home for 6 months.


Just look around at the # of GoFundMe's for ridiculous non-necessity's that get funded.


I can all but guarantee you that the tip given for a pizza delivery on DoorDash (tip before) and first-party delivery (tip on delivery) is higher than the tip given for the same pizza delivery on Favor (tip up to 30min after delivery).

Once that person doesn't have to be face-to-face with the person they are tipping (or not tipping), the tip amount decreases drastically.

not sure why you have an attitude about this. Your post made it sound like the tip screen couldn't be customized, which is incorrect.

My question was about how the counter people are getting paid.

The study I read was about the rate of tipping increasing because of these screens....as Hayden has alluded to a bit.

let's call it "irrational" then.

The amount you tip shouldn't be based on guilt, anchoring, or social stigma.

The servers are certainly hoping it will be though, in these cases.

Looks like we have a restaurant owner on this thread

It is absolutely corporate welfare regardless of what laws are in place. Restaurants have shifted employment costs to its customers by feeding on insecurity/guilt.

Everything free_mhayden posted is spot on.

Aggie09Derek said:

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infinity ag said:

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Why don't restaurants just add a flat 15% "service fee"? That would be more honest too what some do by adding a gratuity and then expecting you to pay tip on top of that.

Just have Food cost, tax, service charge, and then your tip. Up front and you are rewarding for good service.I hate giving an arrogant waiter anything. These types deserve $0.

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Because people like Clay above would ***** and say they shouldn't have to pay a service fee. They also don't think prices would go up 20% if tips were eliminated all together (and expect the same or better service).

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They are paying a service fee even now, we just call it "tip". If Service Fee became pervasive, then everyone can feel better that the poor waiters are being taken care of. That seems to be the issue for most people, that the waiters are not getting minimum wage. Of course I think that if they are not, then they should demand more, or just find another job and let the market take care of it. Seems like a form of socialism to me where restaurant patrons are expected to ensure that the waiter can feed his family.

Tip should ONLY be based on service. You give crappy service, you get ZERO. You do good service you get ~15%. Outstanding service and you show the patron your cleavage (hotties only), then you get 20%+. This ensures that patrons are rewarding good service and the bad waiters are not rewarded for crappy service.

I've lost interest in this thread.

Y'all have fun.

Diggity said:

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let's call it "irrational" then.

The amount you tip shouldn't be based on guilt, anchoring, or social stigma.

The servers are certainly hoping it will be though, in these cases.

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You know what else is irrational?
The guy sitting there with his wife and kids who tips the hot waitress more, especially if she has nice cans.

What is that idiot thinking? That he has a chance with this young lady?


Yet....I still do it... every time.

claym711 said:

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Looks like we have a restaurant owner on this thread

It is absolutely corporate welfare regardless of what laws are in place. Restaurants have shifted employment costs to its customers by feeding on insecurity/guilt.

Everything free_mhayden posted is spot on.

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So if we as a society slowly start becoming aware of this gospel you preach, and tipping becomes less and less fashionable, do you think there would be any changes to the labor market for wait staff at restaurants? Would there be fewer job seekers? Would menu prices and wages stay the same in the long term?

I don't disagree necessarily that the current system is "corporate welfare" via a cultural norm. But just because that is the case doesn't make the alternative any better. In places where tipping isn't customary, restaurant dining is generally more expensive. Seems like a tomato/tomahto thing to me.

Unrelated, but I'm curious since you're so enlightened to this mass insanity - do you tip with any regularity?

Do you believe in minimum wage? If so, how much should minimum wage be? Only for Americans? Why?

If minimum wage didn't exist, would the quality of products fall?

claym711 said:

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Do you believe in minimum wage? If so, how much should minimum wage be? Only for Americans? Why?

If minimum wage didn't exist, would the quality of products fall?

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If that's how you're going to respond to an attempt to start and actual conversation, I see no reason to engage with you.

GarlandAg2012 said:

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gospel you preach

since you're so enlightened

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There has been an actual conversation taking place, but the above isn't gonna be a very successful attempt at getting people to steer that conversation in a direction that you like.

claym711 said:

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GarlandAg2012 said:

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gospel you preach

since you're so enlightened

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There has been an actual conversation taking place, but the above isn't gonna be a very successful attempt at getting people to steer that conversation in a direction that you like.

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I was admittedly snarky but you have been full of smugness and snark throughout the thread. Sorry.

I don't understand what motivation anyone has to support the tipping model, other than those that have been mentioned several times (guilt, insecurity, etc - or being a restaurant owner).

Will prices rise if employers are forced to cover their employment costs? That depends on what employment costs voters force them to pay. Will product quality fall if voters don't force them to pay a minimum wage? No.

Nikes wouldn't be better Nikes if they were manufactured in the US, and I don't think anyone is sending tips to Indonesia.

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So if we as a society slowly start becoming aware of this gospel you preach, and tipping becomes less and less fashionable, do you think there would be any changes to the labor market for wait staff at restaurants? Would there be fewer job seekers? Would menu prices and wages stay the same in the long term?

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Well, the market is still the market. The restaurants that can't/won't absorb the food cost increase will go to "eroded" service or do away entirely. As a consumer, I am not totally upset about that. The high end will stay the high end, though.

Quote:

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I don't disagree necessarily that the current system is "corporate welfare" via a cultural norm. But just because that is the case doesn't make the alternative any better. In places where tipping isn't customary, restaurant dining is generally more expensive. Seems like a tomato/tomahto thing to me.

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The alternative where the products and prices you advertise are the prices I pay without any extra fees sounds pretty good to me. While I get it from an accounting perspective of not having all that labor youre responsible, I also can't image the frustration the restaurant goes through dealing with customers who jack with your people's pay.

claym711 said:

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I don't understand what motivation anyone has to support the tipping model, other than those that have been mentioned several times (guilt, insecurity, etc - or being a restaurant owner).

Will prices rise if employers are forced to cover their employment costs? That depends on what employment costs voters force them to pay. Will product quality fall if voters don't force them to pay a minimum wage? No.

Nikes wouldn't be better Nikes if they were manufactured in the US, and I don't think anyone is sending tips to Indonesia.

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I think I disagree with your middle paragraph. If tipping went away but the wait service minimum wage didn't change (ie it's much lower than other minimum wage skill level jobs) you don't think that would change the labor market for food service workers? I think the fact that it is a job with not very high barriers to entry but relatively good earning potential works in the favor of having good service. If the earning potential of being a waiter drops, good waiters will find other jobs.

It's anecdotal, but for instance during the last big boom in oil prices (2012-2014), restaurants in the Midland area would have entire sections closed because they couldn't hire wait staff, and in general service quality was not good and meals were slower. Why wait tables making X when you could work in the industry and make 1.5X for the same level of effort?

In my mind our labor market is kind of stratified by earning potential. Higher quality employees fill roles with higher earning potential (in general). If you hurt the relative position of earnings of wait staff among jobs of approximately equal levels of skill, I think you will end up with worse waiters. Maybe you think its sort of a binary job? Either the food makes it to the table or it doesnt? I guess at some level thats true, they would probably find a warm body to write down orders and bring out plates, but there is more to good service than the basic functions.

If there was no minimum wage for waiters and tipping wasn't customary, what do you think would be the net effect on the earning potential of wait staff jobs?

Generally speaking, is there a correlation between earning potential and the quality of people filling those jobs?

Another tangent that is interesting to me is the increasing role of automation in this sector. I think eliminating tipping would result in more restaurants using iPads or kiosks. If you get rid of tips, I expect that restaurants would have to pay a higher pay rate to have an equal level of service. Some would increase the prices on their menus or add service fees to cover this and some would say screw it I'm using a robot.

diehard03 said:

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Quote:

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So if we as a society slowly start becoming aware of this gospel you preach, and tipping becomes less and less fashionable, do you think there would be any changes to the labor market for wait staff at restaurants? Would there be fewer job seekers? Would menu prices and wages stay the same in the long term?

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Well, the market is still the market. The restaurants that can't/won't absorb the food cost increase will go to "eroded" service or do away entirely. As a consumer, I am not totally upset about that. The high end will stay the high end, though.

Quote:

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I don't disagree necessarily that the current system is "corporate welfare" via a cultural norm. But just because that is the case doesn't make the alternative any better. In places where tipping isn't customary, restaurant dining is generally more expensive. Seems like a tomato/tomahto thing to me.

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The alternative where the products and prices you advertise are the prices I pay without any extra fees sounds pretty good to me. While I get it from an accounting perspective of not having all that labor youre responsible, I also can't image the frustration the restaurant goes through dealing with customers who jack with your people's pay.

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So do you just discount the results of this being tried in America and consumers and wait staff both disliking the change?

http://blog.ecornell.com/should-we-abandon-tipping-heres-what-would-happen/

https://money.cnn.com/2016/01/19/pf/no-tipping-reversed-bar-agricole-trou-normand/

Ultimately, I don't personally care if a restaurant has a gratuity based model or a service fee or higher menu prices. I have had awesome dining experiences with each. What I don't really like is a change in the system that results in worse service or using nothing but robots for this task. I think reducing the wages of waiters will result in worse service and I think replacing waiters with robots is bad for the economy at large.

Wait staff can improve the experience with professional attire, manners, friendliness, cleanliness, and prompt service - which outside of professional attire are all things you can get at Chick-fil-a. Whats the difference between Chick-fil-a and say a Midland Chilis or Tex-Mex place? Food quality is the same or worse, service is likely worse, while atmosphere is probably better. So, why are you paying employment costs at the Tex-Mex place but not Chick-fil-a?

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So do you just discount the results of this being tried in America and consumers and wait staff both disliking the change?

http://blog.ecornell.com/should-we-abandon-tipping-heres-what-would-happen/

https://money.cnn.com/2016/01/19/pf/no-tipping-reversed-bar-agricole-trou-normand/

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There issues with both of those pieces, and I don't think it invalidates what I am saying.

How we eliminate the practice is totally different than if we should.

Do a quick review of his posting history and then you will see that debate is futile.

It raises basic questions:

Q. Why do I pay a tip?

1. Is it because I got good service?
2. Is it because I am expected to feel sorry for the wait staff that they get paid below minimum wage?
3. To show that I am not a lolpoors.
4. Anything else?

From the responses I have seen on this board over the years, it seems to be (2) and maybe (3).

Good Bull Jones 17 said:

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62strat said:

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Did this taco cabana have a tip jar out, or a receipt that had a spot for tip?

If yes to either, then that is pretty confusing. If no to both, then how would you tip anyway? Seems weird to just hand a cashier some bills.

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It didn't! I guess they don't want people leaving a couple bucks on the table for the folks when they bring you your food or clean the tables. Which is just weird to me.

After working at Bill Miller, I sometimes leave a buck or two at the table for the busboy because I know when you're not expecting it, it brings that person more enjoyment than it costs me. Kind of like Ragoo, I kind of view it as psuedo-charitable.

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My guess is that money was being left on tables, and there was conflict over who should get it and/or how it should be split up. To solve the problem, management went with the easiest solution, which was to put up signs that said "Don't tip!"

Diggity said:

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One thing I've wondered about recently is how the counter service folks are being paid.

Traditionally, I never even considered tipping them, but in the "Square Era", everyone with an iPad payment system expects 18%-20%-25% it seems. These guys are now getting tipped out pretty decently it would seem, but probably not enough to cover the delta between minimum wage and $2.12 consistently (assuming they're tipping out the kitchen and bus boys).

So are they getting paid $7.25 + tips now? If so, that's a pretty kickass job for a high school kid. Sit there and take orders but never actually have to refill drinks or serve anyone, but still clear $10-15/hour.

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This is the crap that pisses me off. This is a quick transaction; I ask for x, you provide x, and there is no additional service given. The counter/register tip feature is absurd. It makes you go out of your way to figure out how not to leave a tip.

Restaurant service is different but the Apple counter crap needs to go.