So I've noticed that at Taco Cabana, there are signs that expressly forbid (or discourage tipping). Is there a business or tax reason that they would do this?

To be clear, I don't think that the employees at limited service restaurants deserve a tip. I'm just curious why TC would go so far as tell their customers to not tip, rather than just tell the employees to not put out a tip jar.

When I worked at Bill Miller BBQ busing tables, I never expected a tip, but if someone left one, Bill Miller was fine with that.

There is a high end restaurant in Dallas that no longer allows tipping but its a very small restaurant. Chef/owner pays his waitstaff a salary instead.

He's originally from Europe where tipping not part of the culture so it was more of a personal decision than business decision.

Willingly supplementing employment costs is one of the more odd things that American capitalists have been guilted into doing.

Tips present lots of accounting challenges for a business. They have to be reported as income on the employees check and W2 which means they have to be tracked at the employee level. Also if you rely on tips to supplement pay and the tipped employee doesn't reach minimum wage for a given pay period the employer has to supplement their pay to get them to minimum wage. Then if you rely on tips the math for their overtime rate is different than it is for a regular hourly employee. That's just a few of the accounting problems off the top of my head. I doubt that's why TC discourages it but it's certainly a possibility.

This is a big part. When I was at Freebirds we had tip jars by the register. However every two weeks it was counted, and our accounting team had to break up the tips based on the % of hours each employee worked compared to the entire pool of total hour worked, and then divide it up accordingly. Then deduct taxes.

It is a crap load of work to do it right and if you don't an establishment can get into trouble. Not huge trouble, but still enough to be fined and a lot of auditing hours.

I always leave a dollar or two on the table at Jason's Deli when my family eats there. It's always crowded, and I appreciate the work the bus boys do to keep the tables open. I try to hand it directly to the employee when I can. They can feel free to kick me out if they don't like it.

Did this taco cabana have a tip jar out, or a receipt that had a spot for tip?

If yes to either, then that is pretty confusing. If no to both, then how would you tip anyway? Seems weird to just hand a cashier some bills.

claym711 said:

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Willingly supplementing employment costs is one of the more odd things that American capitalists have been guilted into doing.

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This! It's part of the service and it's a way that restaurants have used to pay less than minimum wage (yes, that's another issue). You don't tip the worker at the feed mill when he loads a ton of horse feed or range cubes, you don't tip the electrician, etc.

In Europe tipping is not cultural, but in some places like Japan, tipping is actually offensive to the person you're trying tip.

Eta - and the inflation has been unreal. As a kid it was 10%, then 15%, and now lots of places try saying 20% is the norm for "adequate" service. That's ridiculous. Also, the waitress at the diner with $7 burgers works just as hard as the one at a place selling $40 plates.

Tecolote said:

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claym711 said:

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Willingly supplementing employment costs is one of the more odd things that American capitalists have been guilted into doing.

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Also, the waitress at the diner with $7 burgers works just as hard as the one at a place selling $40 plates.

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A realtor in Kansas works just as hard a one in NYC doesn't he?

What point are you trying to make?

There is an "Adam Ruins Everything" (good show) episode about restuarants. In general, most places that do this are paying their staffs an actual wage.

you people against tipping as a concept are out of your mind.

JDCAG (NOT Colin) said:

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There is an "Adam Ruins Everything" (good show) episode about restuarants. In general, most places that do this are paying their staffs an actual wage.

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Poorly researched show with clear bias in most of the points made... but it is entertaining.

Tecolote said:

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claym711 said:

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Willingly supplementing employment costs is one of the more odd things that American capitalists have been guilted into doing.

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This! It's part of the service and it's a way that restaurants have used to pay less than minimum wage (yes, that's another issue). You don't tip the worker at the feed mill when he loads a ton of horse feed or range cubes, you don't tip the electrician, etc.

In Europe tipping is not cultural, but in some places like Japan, tipping is actually offensive to the person you're trying tip.

Eta - and the inflation has been unreal. As a kid it was 10%, then 15%, and now lots of places try saying 20% is the norm for "adequate" service. That's ridiculous. Also, the waitress at the diner with $7 burgers works just as hard as the one at a place selling $40 plates.

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I have wondered when that change happened, too. I guess it was a gradual over the years, but it has definitely crept up. Not a huge deal and most servers deserve it, but still interesting to me.

Quote:

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In 2016, when the Danish restaurateur Claus Meyer opened his new-Nordic restaurant Agern inside New York City's Grand Central Terminal, he decided that, in adherence to Danish tradition, the restaurant would not accept gratuities. Instead, Meyer set Agern's prices high enough to be able to pay employees a living wage and provide them with benefits such as health insurance, matching 401(k)s, and paid parental leave practices that are all but unheard of in the restaurant industry. Earlier this month, though, Meyer announced that Agern would abandon that so-called hospitality-included model in favor of a traditional tipping system, and that menu prices would decrease accordingly. In an e-mail, he told me that he felt that the policy had alienated certain diners and driven away needed business. "The well being of our staff remains crucial to our corporate mission," Meyer wrote, emphasizing that the restaurant's progressive employee benefits would remain in place.

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Quote:

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New research by Lynn shows that when restaurants move to a no-tipping policy, their online customer ratings fall. One factor that explains that dissatisfaction is how we, as consumers, respond to "partitioned" prices versus "bundled" prices. A partitioned price divides the total cost of an item into smaller components - say, a television listed for a hundred and ninety dollars that has a ten-dollar shipping fee. A bundled price would list the television, shipping included, for two hundred dollars. Consumers tend to perceive partitioned prices as cheaper than bundled ones. Lynn says that a customer who routinely tips fifteen per cent will see a gratuity-included restaurant as more expensive than a traditional restaurant with menu prices fifteen per cent lower. "In fact, a customer who routinely tips twenty per cent - making her total bill higher than the gratuity-included alternative - will still view the no-tipping restaurant as more expensive," Lynn told me.

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https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-gastronomy/the-limitations-of-american-restaurants-no-tipping-experiment

Quinn said:

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Tecolote said:

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claym711 said:

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Willingly supplementing employment costs is one of the more odd things that American capitalists have been guilted into doing.

---

This! It's part of the service and it's a way that restaurants have used to pay less than minimum wage (yes, that's another issue). You don't tip the worker at the feed mill when he loads a ton of horse feed or range cubes, you don't tip the electrician, etc.

In Europe tipping is not cultural, but in some places like Japan, tipping is actually offensive to the person you're trying tip.

Eta - and the inflation has been unreal. As a kid it was 10%, then 15%, and now lots of places try saying 20% is the norm for "adequate" service. That's ridiculous. Also, the waitress at the diner with $7 burgers works just as hard as the one at a place selling $40 plates.

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I have wondered when that change happened, too. I guess it was a gradual over the years, but it has definitely crept up. Not a huge deal and most servers deserve it, but still interesting to me.

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Growing up 15% was normal in our household (I'm 45). It changed for me after I waited tables and got out of college.

Admitedlly, I'm an over tipper but it's because I did the job. SOP for me is 20% on the total bill including tax unless we get bad service and then I drop accordingly.

Tecolote said:

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claym711 said:

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Willingly supplementing employment costs is one of the more odd things that American capitalists have been guilted into doing.

---

This! It's part of the service and it's a way that restaurants have used to pay less than minimum wage (yes, that's another issue). You don't tip the worker at the feed mill when he loads a ton of horse feed or range cubes, you don't tip the electrician, etc.

In Europe tipping is not cultural, but in some places like Japan, tipping is actually offensive to the person you're trying tip.

Eta - and the inflation has been unreal. As a kid it was 10%, then 15%, and now lots of places try saying 20% is the norm for "adequate" service. That's ridiculous. Also, the waitress at the diner with $7 burgers works just as hard as the one at a place selling $40 plates.

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No not this! Restaurant owners aren't using tips as a way to pay a lower wage. That ridiculous. Tips simply shift the cost of the transaction around on the receipt but if the owners were paying at or above minimum wage then the food would cost more on the menu. The total transaction isn't going to change and if it does it will be to the detriment of the waiter. That seems incredibly obvious. It also seems obvious that service would suck more and you wouldn't have the ability to reward/punish good/bad service. Why would I as an owner put my faith in a minimum wage employee to provide good service when I can put their total pay into their hands and let their ability to be good or bad at their job dictate how much they make?

I have several restaurants and bars as clients and none of their waitstaff makes minimum wage and during certain times of year I may see them making $30+/hour. Do you really think a restaurant owner is going to guarantee that kind of wage up front then try to bake it into the menu price of their food? That's a really big commitment to make when you don't know for certain how many people are going to walk through the door any given night.

This isn't any different than commissioned sales people. Does anyone really think that a salesperson making a salary and no commission is going to work as hard as one making 100% commission? Citing Europe as an example of nations that do things better than us just seems...wrong. Other than topless beaches and the Autobahn I struggle to see anything Europe does better than we do.

Tecolote said:

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claym711 said:

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Willingly supplementing employment costs is one of the more odd things that American capitalists have been guilted into doing.

---

This! It's part of the service and it's a way that restaurants have used to pay less than minimum wage (yes, that's another issue). You don't tip the worker at the feed mill when he loads a ton of horse feed or range cubes, you don't tip the electrician, etc.

In Europe tipping is not cultural, but in some places like Japan, tipping is actually offensive to the person you're trying tip.

Eta - and the inflation has been unreal. As a kid it was 10%, then 15%, and now lots of places try saying 20% is the norm for "adequate" service. That's ridiculous. Also, the waitress at the diner with $7 burgers works just as hard as the one at a place selling $40 plates.

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And when that waitress gets really good at her job she can move up to a place that sells $40 plates. You don't get paid for working hard, you get paid for being great at your job. You're more than welcome to spend your entire career waiting at the burger joint but if you're great at waiting then there's ample opportunity to move up the income ladder simply by taking your proven skill set to a place where the per ticket price is higher. There's not a world where the burger joint can pay a waitperson what Ruth's Chris does. But we currently live in a world where that waitperson can get a job at Ruth's Chris if they're good enough.

LOYAL AG said:

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Tecolote said:

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claym711 said:

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Willingly supplementing employment costs is one of the more odd things that American capitalists have been guilted into doing.

---

This! It's part of the service and it's a way that restaurants have used to pay less than minimum wage (yes, that's another issue). You don't tip the worker at the feed mill when he loads a ton of horse feed or range cubes, you don't tip the electrician, etc.

In Europe tipping is not cultural, but in some places like Japan, tipping is actually offensive to the person you're trying tip.

Eta - and the inflation has been unreal. As a kid it was 10%, then 15%, and now lots of places try saying 20% is the norm for "adequate" service. That's ridiculous. Also, the waitress at the diner with $7 burgers works just as hard as the one at a place selling $40 plates.

---

And when that waitress gets really good at her job she can move up to a place that sells $40 plates. You don't get paid for working hard, you get paid for being great at your job. You're more than welcome to spend your entire career waiting at the burger joint but if you're great at waiting then there's ample opportunity to move up the income ladder simply by taking your proven skill set to a place where the per ticket price is higher. There's not a world where the burger joint can pay a waitperson what Ruth's Chris does. But we currently live in a world where that waitperson can get a job at Ruth's Chris if they're good enough.

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Wise words. Jim Rohn used to say "I gave an hour long speech at a Lions Club for free when I was 26. I was paid $1M for an hour long speech at age 52". Do you mean to tell me the value of his words were worth that much for a single hour?

EVIDENTLY!

LOYAL AG said:

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Tecolote said:

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claym711 said:

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Willingly supplementing employment costs is one of the more odd things that American capitalists have been guilted into doing.

---

This! It's part of the service and it's a way that restaurants have used to pay less than minimum wage (yes, that's another issue). You don't tip the worker at the feed mill when he loads a ton of horse feed or range cubes, you don't tip the electrician, etc.

In Europe tipping is not cultural, but in some places like Japan, tipping is actually offensive to the person you're trying tip.

Eta - and the inflation has been unreal. As a kid it was 10%, then 15%, and now lots of places try saying 20% is the norm for "adequate" service. That's ridiculous. Also, the waitress at the diner with $7 burgers works just as hard as the one at a place selling $40 plates.

---

And when that waitress gets really good at her job she can move up to a place that sells $40 plates. You don't get paid for working hard, you get paid for being great at your job. You're more than welcome to spend your entire career waiting at the burger joint but if you're great at waiting then there's ample opportunity to move up the income ladder simply by taking your proven skill set to a place where the per ticket price is higher. There's not a world where the burger joint can pay a waitperson what Ruth's Chris does. But we currently live in a world where that waitperson can get a job at Ruth's Chris if they're good enough.

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Yep, good servers can make 6 figures.

What do you feel if you don't leave a tip? Why do you feel guilty if you don't give your money away to a stranger employed by someone else? Oh, it's good service for which you're tipping? You leave zero when it's bad service? Do you tip your UPS guy, electrician, grocery store bagger, accountant, lawyer?

There is no good argument to be made for tipping. Consumers tip out of fear.

Honestly, I feel charity. I feel as if I am making a donation to someone bouncing along in life and maybe my generosity will help them that month.

Does the amount of your charity depend on the size of the bill?

Would you rather the bill be 20-25% higher and possibly worse service on average?

62strat said:

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Did this taco cabana have a tip jar out, or a receipt that had a spot for tip?

If yes to either, then that is pretty confusing. If no to both, then how would you tip anyway? Seems weird to just hand a cashier some bills.

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It didn't! I guess they don't want people leaving a couple bucks on the table for the folks when they bring you your food or clean the tables. Which is just weird to me.

After working at Bill Miller, I sometimes leave a buck or two at the table for the busboy because I know when you're not expecting it, it brings that person more enjoyment than it costs me. Kind of like Ragoo, I kind of view it as psuedo-charitable.

LOYAL AG said:

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Tips present lots of accounting challenges for a business. They have to be reported as income on the employees check and W2 which means they have to be tracked at the employee level. Also if you rely on tips to supplement pay and the tipped employee doesn't reach minimum wage for a given pay period the employer has to supplement their pay to get them to minimum wage. Then if you rely on tips the math for their overtime rate is different than it is for a regular hourly employee. That's just a few of the accounting problems off the top of my head. I doubt that's why TC discourages it but it's certainly a possibility.

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Good to know. Yeah I guess since literally almost every other restaurant allows tips, it seems unlikely that would be the driving factor, but does seem like a pain.

claym711 said:

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What do you feel if you don't leave a tip? Why do you feel guilty if you don't give your money away to a stranger employed by someone else? Oh, it's good service for which you're tipping? You leave zero when it's bad service? Do you tip your UPS guy, electrician, grocery store bagger, accountant, lawyer?

There is no good argument to be made for tipping. Consumers tip out of fear.

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If you're afraid not to tip that's on you. I tip for good service and I don't tip for bad service, or I provide a reduced tip depending on how bad and what I believe the causes might be. It's a transaction, nothing more, nothing less. Do you feel bad when you buy something and you know the sales person is going to get a commission? You know the old adage that good help is hard to find? Well tips are a way to reward the good help while simultaneously prompting the bad help to find another lot in life.

Think of it this way. When is the last time you had great service at McDonald's? Why? There's no incentive to be great. McDonald's rewards their staff for consuming oxygen. Now apply that compensation plan to tip driven restaurants. What outcome do you expect? yep, **** service. Conversely take a good wait person and put them at McD's making $8/hour fixed. What will you get? A disgruntled employee that will leave as soon as possible. If we were to ban tipping what we'd see is a reduction in pay for wait staff and as a result a decline in their job satisfaction and standard of living. Oh, and we'd see a 20% increase in menu prices.

As for the other professions you listed no those folks don't typically get tipped. But there are other ways to express my dissatisfaction with their performance. My clients don't tip me but they sure as hell do tell me when I've fallen short of their expectations. If the waiter was bad enough to avoid tipping are you confrontational enough to tell them about it? The tipping decision is a way to communicate your satisfaction without the confrontation that comes with being dissatisfied with someone you likely don't know personally.

The ramblings of an old man follow:
Tipping at a restaurant is ****ing ******ed.
I do it and hide my distain for the practice because society says I have to but i hate every second of it.
Bringing food out should not be a job that is worthy of putting you in the middle class. It is maybr a 2x minimum wage job at best.
Nothing pisses me off more than an owner/family member of the owner expecting a tip.
I have no problem tipping service workers that provide an OPTIONAL service but **** you if you think I am going to tip for a service that I am forced to use. (Bag desks at airports, I will use and happily tip. Tipping for "complementary" valet parking that I am forced to use because you blocked off your parking lot? **** you. 10% of complimentary is $0
If you are a waiter and my food is wrong/slow/etc, and you don't take care of the problem/comp my meal on your own, no tip for you because you should have buffered me from the kitchen's **** up.
For 20% I'd better get a handy for dessert.
People that take pride in being an "over tipper" are idiots and are people I actively try to cut out of my life.

Duncan Idaho said:

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The ramblings of an old man follow:
Tipping at a restaurant is ****ing ******ed.
I do it and hide my distain for the practice because society says I have to but i hate every second of it.
Bringing food out should not be a job that is worthy of putting you in the middle class. It is maybr a 2x minimum wage job at best.
Nothing pisses me off more than an owner/family member of the owner expecting a tip.
I have no problem tipping service workers that provide an OPTIONAL service but **** you if you think I am going to tip for a service that I am forced to use. (Bag desks at airports, I will use and happily tip. Tipping for "complementary" valet parking that I am forced to use because you blocked off your parking lot? **** you. 10% of complimentary is $0
If you are a waiter and my food is wrong/slow/etc, and you don't take care of the problem/comp my meal on your own, no tip for you because you should have buffered me from the kitchen's **** up.
For 20% I'd better get a handy for dessert.
People that take pride in being an "over tipper" are idiots and are people I actively try to cut out of my life.

---

Gotta agree with essentially all of that. And to those who say tipping encourages better service, I respond that it also encourages awful service in the waiter/waitress trying too hard. You take my order, bring food, verify things are okay, etc. Don't come up acting like we're best friends, you want to know everything about us, make so much small talk we can't talk amongst ourselves, ask me 50 times if everything is "great," draw smiley faces on my check, sit down at the table while taking orders, be so "bubbly" you seem to be on speed, be flirty, etc.

Would you rather your check be 20%+ more if the waiter didn't bother you as much?

Drinks may also not be refilled very much either

What is the going tip rate for a stripper?

Asking for a friend of course...

IrishTxAggie said:

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What is the going tip rate for a stripper?

Asking for a friend of course...

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Isn't there a Romanian stripper expert on these boards. Likely he knows.

Interesting research.

I've read some of the philosophies on the no tip restaurant that make sense. It's important to point out that the person paid their servers on the total bill amount, not on a hourly wage). I don't remember them all, but a few stand out. Having never worked as a server, I'd be curious as to what thoughts were on these ideas.


1. Reduces "theft" or "forgetfulness" of the server when they don't charge for a drink or dessert. I know that if a server doesn't put a drink on my bill, I try to reward them with a bigger tip. I could see why an owner would want to stop that practice.

2. Eliminates some drama of the server having to pass tips on to the back of the house and bus boys. My understanding is that at some places, the server is expected to split the tips with others, and this can cause problems. I don't understand all this, but I imagine that a flat rate (no tipping) eliminates all these type of people distributing money problems.

3. In their research, tip value was actually correlated more with cost of meal, not actually the quality of service. You have a $50 meal; one person with OK service will tip $8, and great service $9; while another individual will tip $2 for OK, and $3 for great service. Some never tip, ever. Since this is true, as an owner, they wanted the server not worried if the person was a good tipper or not, and they didn't want the server worried about if the person was going to bail on tipping or not. Focus on up-selling and customer service.


- The author wrote that if a customer ever had bad service, they can still reduce a customer's bill, just like any other business. I don't know. I think the cultural aspects of tipping are too hard to overcome.

LOYAL AG said:

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Tecolote said:

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claym711 said:

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Willingly supplementing employment costs is one of the more odd things that American capitalists have been guilted into doing.

---

This! It's part of the service and it's a way that restaurants have used to pay less than minimum wage (yes, that's another issue). You don't tip the worker at the feed mill when he loads a ton of horse feed or range cubes, you don't tip the electrician, etc.

In Europe tipping is not cultural, but in some places like Japan, tipping is actually offensive to the person you're trying tip.

Eta - and the inflation has been unreal. As a kid it was 10%, then 15%, and now lots of places try saying 20% is the norm for "adequate" service. That's ridiculous. Also, the waitress at the diner with $7 burgers works just as hard as the one at a place selling $40 plates.

---

No not this! Restaurant owners aren't using tips as a way to pay a lower wage. That ridiculous. Tips simply shift the cost of the transaction around on the receipt but if the owners were paying at or above minimum wage then the food would cost more on the menu. The total transaction isn't going to change and if it does it will be to the detriment of the waiter. That seems incredibly obvious. It also seems obvious that service would suck more and you wouldn't have the ability to reward/punish good/bad service. Why would I as an owner put my faith in a minimum wage employee to provide good service when I can put their total pay into their hands and let their ability to be good or bad at their job dictate how much they make?

I have several restaurants and bars as clients and none of their waitstaff makes minimum wage and during certain times of year I may see them making $30+/hour. Do you really think a restaurant owner is going to guarantee that kind of wage up front then try to bake it into the menu price of their food? That's a really big commitment to make when you don't know for certain how many people are going to walk through the door any given night.

This isn't any different than commissioned sales people. Does anyone really think that a salesperson making a salary and no commission is going to work as hard as one making 100% commission? Citing Europe as an example of nations that do things better than us just seems...wrong. Other than topless beaches and the Autobahn I struggle to see anything Europe does better than we do.

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You are actually making the case for a no tip restaurant here (one that pays their servers on the total bill amount, not one making a hourly wage).

For it to be the same as a regular commissioned sales person, the customer would be determining the commission %. What other business does that?
If a waiter is getting a flat % based on the total bill, they will be up-selling and trying to move as many customers through as quickly as possible.

Again, this is for a no-tip restaurant based not on hourly wage, but as a % determined by the bill, and not by whatever the customer decides.

Iowaggie said:

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LOYAL AG said:

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Tecolote said:

---

claym711 said:

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Willingly supplementing employment costs is one of the more odd things that American capitalists have been guilted into doing.

---

This! It's part of the service and it's a way that restaurants have used to pay less than minimum wage (yes, that's another issue). You don't tip the worker at the feed mill when he loads a ton of horse feed or range cubes, you don't tip the electrician, etc.

In Europe tipping is not cultural, but in some places like Japan, tipping is actually offensive to the person you're trying tip.

Eta - and the inflation has been unreal. As a kid it was 10%, then 15%, and now lots of places try saying 20% is the norm for "adequate" service. That's ridiculous. Also, the waitress at the diner with $7 burgers works just as hard as the one at a place selling $40 plates.

---

No not this! Restaurant owners aren't using tips as a way to pay a lower wage. That ridiculous. Tips simply shift the cost of the transaction around on the receipt but if the owners were paying at or above minimum wage then the food would cost more on the menu. The total transaction isn't going to change and if it does it will be to the detriment of the waiter. That seems incredibly obvious. It also seems obvious that service would suck more and you wouldn't have the ability to reward/punish good/bad service. Why would I as an owner put my faith in a minimum wage employee to provide good service when I can put their total pay into their hands and let their ability to be good or bad at their job dictate how much they make?

I have several restaurants and bars as clients and none of their waitstaff makes minimum wage and during certain times of year I may see them making $30+/hour. Do you really think a restaurant owner is going to guarantee that kind of wage up front then try to bake it into the menu price of their food? That's a really big commitment to make when you don't know for certain how many people are going to walk through the door any given night.

This isn't any different than commissioned sales people. Does anyone really think that a salesperson making a salary and no commission is going to work as hard as one making 100% commission? Citing Europe as an example of nations that do things better than us just seems...wrong. Other than topless beaches and the Autobahn I struggle to see anything Europe does better than we do.

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You are actually making the case for a no tip restaurant here (one that pays their servers on the total bill amount, not one making a hourly wage).

For it to be the same as a regular commissioned sales person, the customer would be determining the commission %. What other business does that?
If a waiter is getting a flat % based on the total bill, they will be up-selling and trying to move as many customers through as quickly as possible.

Again, this is for a no-tip restaurant based not on hourly wage, but as a % determined by the bill, and not by whatever the customer decides.

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in other countries I have visited in South America, giving the waiter a couple bucks is appreciated. If you're getting special treatment for a large table, a $20 will make them remember you next time.

Granted, these are usually places with IVA and at 10% "propina" included in your bill, but the prices on the menu typically reflect the total cost and really aren't out of line compared to what a nice restaurant would be in the states.

The other thing I love in these countries is you can bring a bottle of whiskey or some wine and the waiter will serve everything for you with no cork fee.

It's amazing how much cheaper a nice meal with a group can be when you're not paying 2-3X on the booze and 20% auto-gratuity.