Andy07 said:

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Restricting people carrying on bags is nice for fixing the broken boarding process. Hopefully frequent flyers still get to carry on regardless of the fare booked.

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I am sure they will sell you a $39 per carryon upgrade to allow that...

Pendragon12 said:

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Andy07 said:

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Restricting people carrying on bags is nice for fixing the broken boarding process. Hopefully frequent flyers still get to carry on regardless of the fare booked.

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It's a boarding process they broke by charging for bags in the first place.

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Can't possibly blue star this enough! The original mistake that has caused 90% of the issues people hate about flying now was starting to charge for bags instead of just adding a few bucks to each fare. TSA lines would be much faster without people trying to carry half their worldly goods through security, the overhead bin space would be available to those who need it, we wouldnt need to worry about when we got to our assigned seat, etc. All those problems become moot if people just checked their large bags and carried a small bag with their electronics and valuables on the plane.

txags92 said:

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Pendragon12 said:

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Andy07 said:

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Restricting people carrying on bags is nice for fixing the broken boarding process. Hopefully frequent flyers still get to carry on regardless of the fare booked.

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It's a boarding process they broke by charging for bags in the first place.

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Can't possibly blue star this enough! The original mistake that has caused 90% of the issues people hate about flying now was starting to charge for bags instead of just adding a few bucks to each fare. TSA lines would be much faster without people trying to carry half their worldly goods through security, the overhead bin space would be available to those who need it, we wouldnt need to worry about when we got to our assigned seat, etc. All those problems become moot if people just checked their large bags and carried a small bag with their electronics and valuables on the plane.

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I don't entirely agree. If my trip is 3 days or less, I'm not checking a bag. I'm carrying on a bag (or backpack) that fits in the oh bin.

I would imagine many people have the same idea. And lots of people in every domestic plane is on a trip that is 3 days or less.

Flying is so funking miserable and demeaning now.

txags92 said:

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Which is fine. When there are some folks checking bags, some folks not, you don't run out of overhead bin space and it doesn't slow down boarding too much. It is when you start charging $25+ per bag for check bags. Then, everybody who is able is going to stuff their things into a carryon to avoid checking anything, then you run out of OH bin space, everybody starts wanting to get on first to make sure there is space, or starts loading up OH bins with bags before getting to their seats, etc. then you have to start gate checking what doesn't fit, you have to start restricting who can carry what on, who gets to board earlier, etc. All the other problems flow from that first decision to charge for the check bags.

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Southwest is obviously free for check and carry on. Spirit and frontier charge for checking and also for carry on, so its sounds like a problem for the 'expensive' carriers. Maybe they could learn a thing or two from the budget companies.

aeroag14 said:

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Quote:

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Southwest is obviously free for check and carry on. Spirit and frontier charge for checking and also for carry on, so its sounds like a problem for the 'expensive' carriers. Maybe they could learn a thing or two from the budget companies.

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One thing I find funny is the talk of the "expensive carriers".

Unless you are willing and able to fly at 2 am or 11:30 pm, the "expensive carriers" are generally cheaper than the economy airlines.

For one, Southwest hasn't been cheaper than the major airlines in years. Roughly the same price? Maybe, but certainly not cheaper across the board. I cant find a Southwest flight for cheaper than an AA flight 95% of the time. And when I do it is $5 cheaper and at that point is a crap shoot as to whether the time/arriving airport (Hobby vs bush, love vs DFW, etc) is better for me. Granted, you get free bags with southwest, but I also get free bags with my AA Citi card. Obviously that is dependent on where you fly from (and I generally do fly from an American Hub, PHX). But I just get pissed off every time I look at southwests site, because I go in with the mindset that it is an "economy airline" and it is always more expensive than the "expensive carriers"

As far as spirit, frontier, etc they are almost pointless to me. As someone who works for a living and cant fly at 2 am on a Thursday morning for a weekend trip, their cheap options are worthless to me. AT BEST their reasonably timed flights are in the same ball park as AA (within $10-15) and that doesn't include any of the 1000 crappy fees. At that point it becomes cheaper AND more comfortable to fly the big carriers. Every once in a while (like once or twice in the last year and a half) spirit happens to be a bit cheaper, but if we are talking about $25 cheaper after their fees, is it worth saving the few dollars to be less comfortable AND miss out on getting AA miles?

ok rant over.

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Dude, you are completely misinformed on spirit and frontier. I never see '2am' flights. I don't even think they have any. (not counting delays of course.. different story)

I can go on and on with examples of tickets recently purchased; I'm not going to bother, but maybe you're doing yourself a disservice if you think all 'the cheap flights are at 2am.' it's quite the opposite actually.

Look I understand Frontier is based out of denver, so they have great pricing to and from here, and southwest as well since this is a hub. Not every locale in the US has that advantage, so I'm not gonna say that people living in Mobile, Alabama or Lubbock, TX should stick to SW or Spirit or frontier. I get that. Even living in Houston or Den, not every city served from these origins have ultra low sales. But I live in Den, my parents/friends are in HOU, and my brother is in OAK, and all 3 of those fly to those 3 locations, and they all can do it very cheap pretty regularly. I just got OAK for under $150, leave friday 1pm and land in denver 7pm sunday, both nonstop, on southwest.

I also get that SW, frontier and spirit don't have rock bottom prices ALL time. These companies have similar pricing models; they have SALES/PROMOTIONS. The sales are within that sweet spot of 6 weeks to about 3 months ahead. If you are flexible in your travels days, you can almost always get flights at a SALE price. Dal to Den through spirit is not always $34, but right now, almost the entire month of Jan and Feb IS BELOW $63 a leg, with about the half the month at $34 a leg. AA isn't touching that price, and you know it. It is also not very common to get these kinds of rock bottom pricing the week of xmas or thanksgiving.. that's just how that goes.

Given that, if you check say hou to den in may right now, it's probably $350 round trip. They don't extend sales that far out. You have to wait, maybe you don't know this. Right now their sales are Jan-mar timeframe. Same with spirit, right now a dal to den flight in June is their 'default' price which is like $150+ each way.

Maybe this is what you're looking at and is the reason behind your judgement. You have to be informed. Look at their respective 'sale' pages.

http://marketing.spirit.com/traveldeals/air.php?s=2814
https://www.southwest.com/html/promotions/click-n-save-sale-161115.html?clk=HOMEHERO_CNSSAL161115
https://www.flyfrontier.com/ways-to-save/online-deals/

Have Vegas roundtrip from Houston next week Spirit there Frontier back for under $100 roundtrip. No crazy times either.

You see I always think that going in, but it rarely plays out like that. I can stalk prices on google flights for weeks and usually never see truly "cheap flights" that are at reasonable times. Every once in a while? Sure, but generally no.

Perhaps it is the routes I usually fly. But I can go in right now and look during your jan-march time frame and I see ~1 week where the flights are cheaper than AA or united. And even then we are talking ~$50 cheaper. If you take into account even one checked or carried on bag each way you have it up to the same price as AA. And one of the Frontier/spirit times is at 5:55 in the morning, which is pretty unfeasible.

So I have one time (which isnt as good as the AA flights) I can reasonably fly the cheaper options. And even then its the same price as AA with fewer amenities. Again it could be the routes I fly and this usually is from an AA hub. But still

txags92 said:

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Which is fine. When there are some folks checking bags, some folks not, you don't run out of overhead bin space and it doesn't slow down boarding too much. It is when you start charging $25+ per bag for check bags. Then, everybody who is able is going to stuff their things into a carryon to avoid checking anything, then you run out of OH bin space, everybody starts wanting to get on first to make sure there is space, or starts loading up OH bins with bags before getting to their seats, etc. then you have to start gate checking what doesn't fit, you have to start restricting who can carry what on, who gets to board earlier, etc. All the other problems flow from that first decision to charge for the check bags.

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Whenever I travel with my wife (i.e. non-work) we always check our bags (have free checked bags b/c of status and UAL card). That way, if we are not upgraded, we are always the last people to board the airplane. No standing in the "Group 2" line to jostle with Rick from St. Louis and 2 Packs A Day Mavis for bin space and then the thrill of sitting in a tiny seat for an extra 20 minutes.

For work trips, I have an overnight bag that holds a change of clothes, necessary toiletries, and my laptop. Fits under the seat so I can show up for flights whenever.

I don't what origins/destinations you're looking, so of course I can't speak to it. Don't stalk google flights. Go to those links or get on the email lists. They'll let you know when the sales are.

Again, spirit/sw/frontier really benefit certain markets, but definitely not all of them. I happen to be lucky in that I live and frequently travel to places that are the target sale markets for all 3 of those fliers, so AA or United are just out of the question for those particular trips, because they really will never be cheaper, outside of very high demand holiday travel, in which those 3 typically are on par with anyone for those times.

I got flights to houston in april for $160 round trip on SW, great times, my SW $150 round trip to oakland in Jan, great times, and my parents are doing houston to denver end of jan on frontier, $125 round trip, great times. I had a slew of friends fly up from Houston a few years ago memorial day weekend on spirit they got $75 round trip, my MIL flew here from dallas back in Jan for about $75 round trip, I flew to Dallas last year for $32 on spirit, I flew den to atl a few years ago for about $100 round trip... on and on I have actual examples of rock bottom flights that the traditional airlines just won't touch, and I've never had a crappy schedule, they are always early evening or mid day.

Last year we flew denver-houston on sw for about $75, and then returned houston-denver on spirit for about $65, which brings up another major benefit to these 3; they truly charge by the leg. A 1way flight is no more than that particular leg of a round trip. So we flew denver to houston on SW, then back on spirit, because it saved a bunch of money as neither had a sale for both of the days we were flying, and we weren't flexible on days. You simply can't do this on United, I'm not sure about AA, but I'm sure it's the same. When picking round trip flights, they have individual leg prices, but if you go back and do a 1way of that leg, it's way more money.

Anyway, rant over for me. I think it's becoming the popular thing to dog on these 3 and say how they really aren't cheaper, they have fees, only the red eye flights are cheap, etc. There are a lot of variables, and yes maybe comparing a very specific flight on certain days certain times you might not see savings. But flexibility on your days with these 3 airlines can save you a **** ton of money. Worth repeating; I flew from Den to Dallas for $32. Let that sink in. I flew one way and drove a car back, and spent 3x that on gas coming back.

Of course SW leads the industry on changing/cancelling flights, even if it's just booking the same flight because the price went down, which I've done on plenty of SW flights. I always continue to check it a few times a week up until the trip.

aeroag14 said:

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You see I always think that going in, but it rarely plays out like that. I can stalk prices on google flights for weeks and usually never see truly "cheap flights" that are at reasonable times. Every once in a while? Sure, but generally no.

Perhaps it is the routes I usually fly. But I can go in right now and look during your jan-march time frame and I see ~1 week where the flights are cheaper than AA or united. And even then we are talking ~$50 cheaper. If you take into account even one checked or carried on bag each way you have it up to the same price as AA. And one of the Frontier/spirit times is at 5:55 in the morning, which is pretty unfeasible.

So I have one time (which isnt as good as the AA flights) I can reasonably fly the cheaper options. And even then its the same price as AA with fewer amenities. Again it could be the routes I fly and this usually is from an AA hub. But still

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It is likely the routes (or days) you fly. I mean, no airline has cheap holiday/spring break flights. Often, Friday-Sunday trips are the most expensive regardless of airline, though Southwest has plenty of sales you can usually grab a good itinerary if you're flexible with dates.

Since you're speaking for yourself, I'll do the same. Southwest is usually the cheapest option for me depending on my final destination. Sometimes it's United. Sometimes Delta. Sometimes American. I'm sure Spirit/Frontier are even cheaper, but I pack entirely too much (#femaleproblems) for that to be a feasible option. If I'm going to Europe, it's either United or Delta. If I'm staying domestic to reasonably-sized airports, it's normally Southwest. It just depends.

You are making really strong statements based on, likely, a very specific example. Southwest is no longer significantly cheaper than their competition, true, but they still often end up being cheaper for many fliers...especially if they need to check their bags. I won't speak on Spirit/Frontier since I never fly them.

Pendragon12 said:

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You are making really strong statements based on, likely, a very specific example. Southwest is no longer significantly cheaper than their competition, true, but they still often end up being cheaper for many fliers...especially if they need to check their bags. I won't speak on Spirit/Frontier since I never fly them.

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Based on the posts I've read, he sounds like a somewhat frequent business traveler in Houston with roughly equal access to both airports and limited flexibility on dates -- exactly like me.

My experience is that United, southwest and others all come in at roughly the same price point. The exceptions are fare sales (which I can rarely buy due to limited timing flexibility) and connections (which I have a strong preference to avoid for the same flexibility concerns).

So when you constrain -- for instance -- a weekend getaway to a Thursday evening through Sunday afternoon/evening, unless I can get really lucky and snatch a Southwest fare far ahead of time, pricing is usually a wash and United usually means an upgrade.

I honestly can't remember the last time I saw a SWA flight for significantly cheaper than the legacies. As for spirit and frontier it's always a gamble if you make it to where you're trying to go the same day you were trying to get there. It works alright on frontier out of DIA as that's their hub but when you're flying back if a flight gets canceled and there's only one or two flights a day out of that market you get screwed as they have no partners like the legacies do with each other to get you to where you need to go. Nor is there a later flight and the infrastructure to get you on a connecting flight to get to where you're going.

Last time I flew frontier check in was an absolute ****show out of DFW. The checking folks didn't show up until ~45 mins before the flight and made everyone checking via the kiosks even though everyone had already checked in online. They wound up delaying the flight almost an hour because everyone was stuck at the counter. Luckily I was only going to DIA as I'm sure most folks missed any connections they may have had.

The other thing that pisses me off about them is the lack of precheck. If I catch a helluva deal with them I'll take it but it has to be pretty significant. I can foresee giving them another chance this winter on a dirt cheap flight from OMA to DIA for a ski weekend but that's about it.

As for spirit I've heard too many horror stories to even consider them honestly

blindey said:

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Pendragon12 said:

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You are making really strong statements based on, likely, a very specific example. Southwest is no longer significantly cheaper than their competition, true, but they still often end up being cheaper for many fliers...especially if they need to check their bags. I won't speak on Spirit/Frontier since I never fly them.

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Based on the posts I've read, he sounds like a somewhat frequent business traveler in Houston with roughly equal access to both airports and limited flexibility on dates -- exactly like me..

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If you're flying for business, who cares how much it is?

When I flew business I paid the higher fares on SW to get more points.

To touch on something jock pointed out, I would never fly spirit, SW or frontier if it wasn't nonstop. You are right in that spirt and frontier have 1 or 2 flights a day, so missing a connection could be an overnight stay. Southwest not so much, they have a butt load more flights to their bigger cities, but still, absolutely nonstop only.

My parents were just flying American out of charlotte, first flight of day, and someone forgot to coordinate the bus to get the crew from hotel to airport. They ended up being delayed 12 hours because of this snafu. This kind of crap happens to all of hem, not just the budget ones.

Alot of companies are going through systems such as concur that don't allow you to pick fares more than a certain amount over the lowest available fare. Others force you to justify why you are picking the higher fare.

txags92 said:

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Alot of companies are going through systems such as concur that don't allow you to pick fares more than a certain amount over the lowest available fare. Others force you to justify why you are picking the higher fare.

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tell them you're getting business select because you get more points and a free drink. There's your justification.

Some PMs are fine with that...some not so much. I can usually make a good case for higher fares easily at my employer...other companies aren't so flexible.

Oh yeah forgot to mention had to fly to DC for work a few weeks ago and had to fly SWA for the first time in probably 10 years. My main issue with the cattle call is the checkin process. I was in the middle of meetings all day in a classifed environment where I can't have my phone nor access to a computer. By the time I got out and was able to check in I got end of C group and no exit row or bulkhead seats. I realize you can upgrade by paying the extra 50 bucks or whatever it is.

Jock 07 said:

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Oh yeah forgot to mention had to fly to DC for work a few weeks ago and had to fly SWA for the first time in probably 10 years. My main issue with the cattle call is the checkin process. I was in the middle of meetings all day in a classifed environment where I can't have my phone nor access to a computer. By the time I got out and was able to check in I got end of C group and no exit row or bulkhead seats. I realize you can upgrade by paying the extra 50 bucks or whatever it is.

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Pay for the early bird checkin. It is just $10 per leg and will automatically check you in 24 hours in advance. I typically get a mid A or at worst a very low B number.

Jock 07 said:

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I realize you can upgrade by paying the extra 50 bucks or whatever it is.

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it's $12.50. Just pay it if it's an issue.

Jock 07 said:

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Oh yeah forgot to mention had to fly to DC for work a few weeks ago and had to fly SWA for the first time in probably 10 years. My main issue with the cattle call is the checkin process. I was in the middle of meetings all day in a classifed environment where I can't have my phone nor access to a computer. By the time I got out and was able to check in I got end of C group and no exit row or bulkhead seats. I realize you can upgrade by paying the extra 50 bucks or whatever it is.

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I was a dedicated AA guy for years. Hated the SW cattle call. Now though AA charges you for every little thing, the service sucks, and the FF miles have gotten almost useless if you want to go anywhere interesting no matter how far in advance you are booking.

SW gradually got better about the cattle call by how they divided up the sections and with the early check in and other stuff they are far superior. The planes also are cleaner and newer. The seats have more room. The staff is far nicer. Most of all though, the FF program is incredible. My wife and I both have Companion Passes and they were easy to get with taking out credit cards. Named our 2 kids Companions and we fly all over. Went to Newark last year and took the kids for 21k miles for all 4 of us and spent a long weekend in NY. Even ideally that would have been 100k with AA.

Think the early bird check in is $15.00 per segment. That is on you. And you could even add the early bird check in up until the normal check in process starts.

United is headed in that direction (see this thread). What is interesting on United is that in terms of use of miles, I can either get garbage or really great flights with miles and nothing in between. By garbage I mean advance bookings that would cost under $200-250 anyways for the 25k award. By really great flights I mean RT transatlantic business class on a better Star Alliance partner for 100-120k.

blindey said:

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United is headed in that direction (see this thread). What is interesting on United is that in terms of use of miles, I can either get garbage or really great flights with miles and nothing in between. By garbage I mean advance bookings that would cost under $200-250 anyways for the 25k award. By really great flights I mean RT transatlantic business class on a better Star Alliance partner for 100-120k.

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This is so true. I have just been stockpiling miles to take the family business class to Europe someday.

The Lost said:

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txags92 said:

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You realize that there is no practical way for the flight attendants to enforce that right? It will be just like the size restrictions on carryons. When was the last time you actually saw somebody told they can't bring on a carryon that was too big? The gate personnel just gate check them and don't require them to pay for checking it. And who is going ti stand on the plane checking boarding passes for each person putting a bag in the overhead bin?

This is just a sucker tax on people who play by the rules. And the folks that do stick to the rule will have a big honking bag stuffed under their seat and halfway into your leg space and will be all cramped up with their legs half I to your seat trying to fit around their bag. Not a winning move.

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You've never flown spirit have you? They'll enforce it at the gate, and it'll be easy since they'll all be in the last boarding group, not mixed in.

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no we wont if we have the mileage plus card I board with the first group everytime no matter how cheap my ticket is

I only use my miles if I can get one of the super saver awards

same here most of the flight I fly on United I don't use my Miles on as I can normally just get them for pretty cheap and ill just pay with my Mileage card so I can board in the first set of groups.

Using mileage plus card doesn't get you in group one

Airlines are the biggest price fixing folks around. The idea that one is cheaper than another is a farce.

If two or more airlines fly from the same Point A to Point B, they will price their fare buckets the same. Now, you may see a price difference if Airline 1 sales through fare bucket 1 before Airline 2 sales through theirs, but revenue management will quickly catch up to this and close fare bucket 1 on Airline 2.

If airline is only one flying A to B, you will see those super high fares. Your alternative is to drive to another airport or connect.

Only other price differential is a result of service offerings. I fly Dallas to Houston every week. Southwest from DAL-HOU is almost always the exact same price as AA or United running DFW-IAH or DFW-HOU. This includes fare buckets at the advanced purchase rate, close in rate, fully refundible, etc. Only difference is that the mainlines may offer first class, which is typically priced about $30 each way above SWA's business select.

Absolutely gone are the days of airlines rewarding any sort of loyalty. Fly the airline that offers you the best choices or happens to be randomly cheaper for your needs. Given the current state of play, I think SWA is preferrable from the aspect that there are NO change fees and funds can be applied to another ticket. Probably saves me several thousand dollars a year. (e.g. if I fly Business Select on SWA, I can change all I want for nothing, which is great when commuting Dallas to Houston; if I buy a 1st class ticket on AA or United for just a few $$'s more, then the change fee is $150 and the new fare could be hundreds of dollars more - no dice).

Exactly now.

Pretty much

flown-the-coop said:

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Airlines are the biggest price fixing folks around. The idea that one is cheaper than another is a farce.

If two or more airlines fly from the same Point A to Point B, they will price their fare buckets the same. Now, you may see a price difference if Airline 1 sales through fare bucket 1 before Airline 2 sales through theirs, but revenue management will quickly catch up to this and close fare bucket 1 on Airline 2.

If airline is only one flying A to B, you will see those super high fares. Your alternative is to drive to another airport or connect.

Only other price differential is a result of service offerings. I fly Dallas to Houston every week. Southwest from DAL-HOU is almost always the exact same price as AA or United running DFW-IAH or DFW-HOU. This includes fare buckets at the advanced purchase rate, close in rate, fully refundible, etc. Only difference is that the mainlines may offer first class, which is typically priced about $30 each way above SWA's business select.

Absolutely gone are the days of airlines rewarding any sort of loyalty. Fly the airline that offers you the best choices or happens to be randomly cheaper for your needs. Given the current state of play, I think SWA is preferrable from the aspect that there are NO change fees and funds can be applied to another ticket. Probably saves me several thousand dollars a year. (e.g. if I fly Business Select on SWA, I can change all I want for nothing, which is great when commuting Dallas to Houston; if I buy a 1st class ticket on AA or United for just a few $$'s more, then the change fee is $150 and the new fare could be hundreds of dollars more - no dice).

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Well if you're only flying HOU-DFW you don't care about first class or delta comfort/other similar versions... When you're flying for over 1.5 hours you definitely care so status can definitely matter. I won't fly southwest for anything over 1.5 unless it was significantly cheaper (like $100, which happens, but not often).