CWeezy17 said:

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redline248 said:

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Triple S said:

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W said:

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Varsho has 50 plate appearances with the Astros (after tonight's game)

he has 3 runs scored and 3 RBI

batting in the middle of the order

beyond awful

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Another banner Dana trade works out!!!!

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...but why does Joe keep batting him so high?

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I'm by no means saying this is the case, but there is greater than zero chance that Joe is being required to bat him in a premium spot to justify the trade. Putting Varsho in the 8 hole would feel like throwing his GM under the bus.

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But what in Varsho's past would give anybody the reason to expect him to hit that high in the order? In 185 PAs with Toronto hitting from the 4 spot, he has a career BA of .152, an OPS of .494, and a wRC+ of 37.

Last night was vintage Joe. Does three things that make sense (like playing Yordan in LF so he can DH Altuve for a game and put Allen at 2B) and then F's it all up with a couple of really dumb moves (like sitting one of our hottest hitters from August and then PRing him instead of PHing him and not running with him after doing it) to remind you who he really is. Yeah, he has a ****ty set of options to work with, but he consistently makes decisions that make the least effective use of what he has.

Drives me ****ing crazy when Joe pinch runs late in the game, usually down by one, and that pinch runner stays anchored to first base. Makes literally no sense whatsoever.

Just to contrast the numbers for Varsho as a cleanup hitter, here is Cam Smith's resume:

In 62 PAs as the cleanup hitter last season, Cam hit for a BA of .333, an OPS of .897, and a wRC+ of 148. But yeah, let's leave him in the 8 hole and let Varsho bat cleanup. Espada's brain must be incredibly smooth.

I was watching last night and when we got traffic in the 9th, but saw Varsho coming up, I knew we were going to lose.

Wife wasn't as accepting, but knew it would either be a ground out or K.

I agree with why is he batting so high?

~egon

Wabs said:

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Drives me ****ing crazy when Joe pinch runs late in the game, usually down by one, and that pinch runner stays anchored to first base. Makes literally no sense whatsoever.

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Same thing when we have multiple runners on base with less than 2 outs and guys either K watching pitches with less than a full count or hit into DPs trying to yank an outside pitch into the Crawford Boxes. The #1 thing in that situation is either get it in the air to the outfield or put it in play to advance the runner. We just have so many guys that are just bad at making good contact when the situation calls for it. They either murder the ball or hit it weakly to the SS...there is very little in between.

Dr. Doctor said:

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I was watching last night and when we got traffic in the 9th, but saw Varsho coming up, I knew we were going to lose.

Wife wasn't as accepting, but knew it would either be a ground out or K.

I agree with why is he batting so high?

~egon

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That is what made it so dumb to run Cam for Yordan. Leaving Yordan in the game and PHing Cam for Varsho was the correct move in that situation. Taking your best hitter out of the lineup in a 1-run game that you are hoping to get to extra innings might just be the dumbest thing Joe has done this year and that is really saying something.

txags92 said:

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Dr. Doctor said:

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I was watching last night and when we got traffic in the 9th, but saw Varsho coming up, I knew we were going to lose.

Wife wasn't as accepting, but knew it would either be a ground out or K.

I agree with why is he batting so high?

~egon

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That is what made it so dumb to run Cam for Yordan. Leaving Yordan in the game and PHing Cam for Varsho was the correct move in that situation. Taking your best hitter out of the lineup in a 1-run game that you are hoping to get to extra innings might just be the dumbest thing Joe has done this year and that is really saying something.

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Joe has made that exact same move with yordan multiple times this year.

htxag09 said:

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txags92 said:

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Dr. Doctor said:

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I was watching last night and when we got traffic in the 9th, but saw Varsho coming up, I knew we were going to lose.

Wife wasn't as accepting, but knew it would either be a ground out or K.

I agree with why is he batting so high?

~egon

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That is what made it so dumb to run Cam for Yordan. Leaving Yordan in the game and PHing Cam for Varsho was the correct move in that situation. Taking your best hitter out of the lineup in a 1-run game that you are hoping to get to extra innings might just be the dumbest thing Joe has done this year and that is really saying something.

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Joe has made that exact same move with yordan multiple times this year.

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And it is just as dumb every time he does it.

txags92 said:

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CWeezy17 said:

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redline248 said:

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Triple S said:

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W said:

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Varsho has 50 plate appearances with the Astros (after tonight's game)

he has 3 runs scored and 3 RBI

batting in the middle of the order

beyond awful

---

Another banner Dana trade works out!!!!

---

...but why does Joe keep batting him so high?

---

I'm by no means saying this is the case, but there is greater than zero chance that Joe is being required to bat him in a premium spot to justify the trade. Putting Varsho in the 8 hole would feel like throwing his GM under the bus.

---

But what in Varsho's past would give anybody the reason to expect him to hit that high in the order? In 185 PAs with Toronto hitting from the 4 spot, he has a career BA of .152, an OPS of .494, and a wRC+ of 37.

Last night was vintage Joe. Does three things that make sense (like playing Yordan in LF so he can DH Altuve for a game and put Allen at 2B) and then F's it all up with a couple of really dumb moves (like sitting one of our hottest hitters from August and then PRing him instead of PHing him and not running with him after doing it) to remind you who he really is. Yeah, he has a ****ty set of options to work with, but he consistently makes decisions that make the least effective use of what he has.

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You are using logic here when the entire trade for Varsho was not logical. You acquired a Jake Meyers 2.0, but a rental, when you already had a Jake Meyers.

As for PR Cam, Paredes singled on the second pitch. We don't know if Cam was wanting to steal but didn't have enough opportunity.

And for the record, you can't make it to extra innings unless you tie it. I'm sure in Joe's mind he found it very unlikely Yordan would receive another at bat unless in extras. But you have to tie the game to get to extras. So you use whatever you think is the best option to tie it. PH for Varsho is never going to happen. Again, that would be throwing your GM under the bus and already admitting the trade was a failure. Should he have used Cam to PR? No. But that's a different conversation then just PR for Yordan in general.

txags92 said:

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Dr. Doctor said:

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I was watching last night and when we got traffic in the 9th, but saw Varsho coming up, I knew we were going to lose.

Wife wasn't as accepting, but knew it would either be a ground out or K.

I agree with why is he batting so high?

~egon

---

That is what made it so dumb to run Cam for Yordan. Leaving Yordan in the game and PHing Cam for Varsho was the correct move in that situation. Taking your best hitter out of the lineup in a 1-run game that you are hoping to get to extra innings might just be the dumbest thing Joe has done this year and that is really saying something.

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Was at the game, I did not have an issue with Cam coming in at that time. What I did have issue with is that Paredes allowed no chance for Cam to advance to score position. Paredes hit a single, thus leaving 1st and 2nd on instead of a possible score on a single. Missed game tying RBI.

Was taking pitches and advancing Cam not talked about? Did Paredes get a pitch to triple or HR and just swung away? I don't know, but what was important was to drive in a tying run at that point of the game.

If not going to steal, then what have Cam come in.

CWeezy17 said:

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txags92 said:

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CWeezy17 said:

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redline248 said:

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Triple S said:

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W said:

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Varsho has 50 plate appearances with the Astros (after tonight's game)

he has 3 runs scored and 3 RBI

batting in the middle of the order

beyond awful

---

Another banner Dana trade works out!!!!

---

...but why does Joe keep batting him so high?

---

I'm by no means saying this is the case, but there is greater than zero chance that Joe is being required to bat him in a premium spot to justify the trade. Putting Varsho in the 8 hole would feel like throwing his GM under the bus.

---

But what in Varsho's past would give anybody the reason to expect him to hit that high in the order? In 185 PAs with Toronto hitting from the 4 spot, he has a career BA of .152, an OPS of .494, and a wRC+ of 37.

Last night was vintage Joe. Does three things that make sense (like playing Yordan in LF so he can DH Altuve for a game and put Allen at 2B) and then F's it all up with a couple of really dumb moves (like sitting one of our hottest hitters from August and then PRing him instead of PHing him and not running with him after doing it) to remind you who he really is. Yeah, he has a ****ty set of options to work with, but he consistently makes decisions that make the least effective use of what he has.

---

You are using logic here when the entire trade for Varsho was not logical. You acquired a Jake Meyers 2.0, but a rental, when you already had a Jake Meyers.

As for PR Cam, Paredes singled on the second pitch. We don't know if Cam was wanting to steal but didn't have enough opportunity.

And for the record, you can't make it to extra innings unless you tie it. I'm sure in Joe's mind he found it very unlikely Yordan would receive another at bat unless in extras. But you have to tie the game to get to extras. So you use whatever you think is the best option to tie it. PH for Varsho is never going to happen. Again, that would be throwing your GM under the bus and already admitting the trade was a failure. Should he have used Cam to PR? No. But that's a different conversation then just PR for Yordan in general.

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So are we managing to win games or are we managing to protect the ego of the GM? If we are managing to win games, then PHing the guy who is hitting .357 with a 1.029 OPS for the month of August for the guy hitting .140 with a .446 OPS for the month of August has to be on the table or you are not a serious team.

I have a feeling we're going to dread that series in Seattle the last week of the season. The only good news is that it's limited to 2 games.

Mariners average 3.6 runs/game against the rest of MLB... but 6.6 against the Astros.

We can complain all day about the hitting, but it's the pitching that has led to losing 9 of 11 games against Seattle this year (last night notwithstanding).

Not PHing Varsho isn't the problem.

I'd say 9/10 managers aren't PHing their cleanup hitter in that situation. Hell they WANT their #4 hitter up in that spot.

The problem is having Varsho being the cleanup hitter.

I understand the piling on of Varsho, who has hit poorly since the trade and is being completely misused in the lineup, but saying he and Meyers are on the same level is just not accurate.

Varsho is here in large part because of Jake's colossal failing to maintain a reasoinable facsimile of his success last season. Jake broke through to a .292 AVG and a .727 OPS last year in 104 games and followed that up with .213 and .594 in 1/3rd of a season this year.

Varsho's had 3 seasons since 2021 with a better OPS than Jake's career high and averaged 19 homers a year from 2022-2025.

It sucks he's hitting so poorly, but he's a real MLB outfielder. Jake has had the equivalent of one good season: his 49 games as a rookie in 2021 and his 104 games last year. Unfortunately, he's played another 3-1/2 seasons where he couldn't hit above .227.

Off days ... Cam gets 2 in a row, thanks Joe!

ROFLMAO

Hornbeck said:

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ROFLMAO

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Kyle right now

EastCoastAgNc said:

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Hornbeck said:

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ROFLMAO

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Kyle right now

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He can cry a million tears and dry every one individually with a separate $20 bill and still have $40 million per year left to live on.

CharleyKerfeld said:

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I understand the piling on of Varsho, who has hit poorly since the trade and is being completely misused in the lineup, but saying he and Meyers are on the same level is just not accurate.

Varsho is here in large part because of Jake's colossal failing to maintain a reasoinable facsimile of his success last season. Jake broke through to a .292 AVG and a .727 OPS last year in 104 games and followed that up with .213 and .594 in 1/3rd of a season this year.

Varsho's had 3 seasons since 2021 with a better OPS than Jake's career high and averaged 19 homers a year from 2022-2025.

It sucks he's hitting so poorly, but he's a real MLB outfielder. Jake has had the equivalent of one good season: his 49 games as a rookie in 2021 and his 104 games last year. Unfortunately, he's played another 3-1/2 seasons where he couldn't hit above .227.

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At what point do we stop looking at what a guy did 2, 3, or 4 years ago and start judging them based upon current results? Statistically he's having close to the same season Jake is. There was no indication that he'd suddenly return to his 2024 form. Any hope of that was not based in reality.

We've seen how hoping for the past worked with Jose Abreu.

Ag_07 said:

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Not PHing Varsho isn't the problem.

I'd say 9/10 managers aren't PHing their cleanup hitter in that situation. Hell they WANT their #4 hitter up in that spot.

The problem is having Varsho being the cleanup hitter.

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29 out of 30 managers aren't putting a guy hitting 50-60 pts under the Mendoza line in the cleanup spot.

txags92 said:

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Ag_07 said:

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Not PHing Varsho isn't the problem.

I'd say 9/10 managers aren't PHing their cleanup hitter in that situation. Hell they WANT their #4 hitter up in that spot.

The problem is having Varsho being the cleanup hitter.

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29 out of 30 managers aren't putting a guy hitting 50-60 pts under the Mendoza line in the cleanup spot.

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Yeah, he can't play himself (permanently) out of the lineup, but there's no reason to put him in a position where he can hurt us the most.

We've had 19 players reach 50 PAs for us this season, and Varsho has far and away performed the worst. Zach Cole's 49 OPS+ was the worst (Jake has a 67 OPS+)but Varsho is crushing that with a 28 OPS+. But for the circumstances that see him playing for us he wouldn't be seeing the field given how badly he's played.

Faustus said:

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txags92 said:

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Ag_07 said:

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Not PHing Varsho isn't the problem.

I'd say 9/10 managers aren't PHing their cleanup hitter in that situation. Hell they WANT their #4 hitter up in that spot.

The problem is having Varsho being the cleanup hitter.

---

29 out of 30 managers aren't putting a guy hitting 50-60 pts under the Mendoza line in the cleanup spot.

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Yeah, he can't play himself (permanently) out of the lineup, but there's no reason to put him in a position where he can hurt us the most.

We've had 19 players reach 50 PAs for us this season, and Varsho has far and away performed the worst. Zach Cole's 49 OPS+ was the worst (Jake has a 67 OPS+)but Varsho is crushing that with a 28 OPS+. But for the circumstances that see him playing for us he wouldn't be seeing the field given how badly he's played.

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Yeah, I get that we are going to play him nearly every day because our genius GM has put us in the position of having zero other long term options at CF, but nothing he has done should make him untouchable when it comes to being PH for late in games. If Yordan can be lifted for a pinch runner, there is no reason Varsho can't be pinch hit for by a guy hitting .180 points better than him in the last 2 weeks.

All this talk of PH is moot anyways because:

1) Munoz is a righty. Joe see's lefty / righty over all house. He'd never pull a LH bat late in that scenario, regardless of who it was.

2) He burns our best bats on the bench to run for the league MVP

Bagwell and his 'the game isn't played by robots' schtick gets a lot shlt from us but I imagine that's what's going on with Varsho.

I get why a manager won't yank his newly acquired player in a big spot. I may not agree with it but I get it. There's an argument to made there.

But there is no argument to be made for why he's hitting cleanup. That's just incredibly dumb.

I know we are bagging on Joe not PH Varsho in the 8th, but it was Varsho or nobody. He had already lost the DH by then and Trammell was the last bat on the bench. He had to be saved for the 9th when the pitchers sippy was guaranteed to come up (or earlier if Varsho was successful).

The issue wasn't Varsho batting, it's the box that Joe put himself in several moves earlier.

htxag09 said:

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All this talk of PH is moot anyways because:

1) Munoz is a righty. Joe see's lefty / righty over all house. He'd never pull a LH bat late in that scenario, regardless of who it was.

2) He burns our best bats on the bench to run for the league MVP

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Except for the months of Jul and August (being nice to Varsho and including Cam's worst month), Varsho is hitting .184 with a .487 OPS against RHP and Cam is hitting .232 with a .642 OPS. There really is no excuse Joe can come up with that would hold water.

Ag_07 said:

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Bagwell and his 'the game isn't played by robots' schtick gets a lot shlt from us but I imagine that's what's going on with Varsho.

I get why a manager won't yank his newly acquired player in a big spot. I may not agree with it but I get it. There's an argument to made there.

But there is no argument to be made for why he's hitting cleanup. That's just incredibly dumb.

---

I get the personnel angle of all of it, but if Yordan can handle being yanked for a PR, then Varsho has to man up to the idea that he can be yanked too when he has blown dead gophers as a hitter since he got here.

Astros-Angels probables:

Tues: Cristian Javier vs. George Klassen
Wed: TBA vs. Walbert Ureña
Thurs: Peter Lambert vs. Grayson Rodriguez

— Chandler Rome (@Chandler_Rome) August 17, 2026

Wednesday is likely going to be a combination of Pecko/Imai

Mathguy64 said:

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I know we are bagging on Joe not PH Varsho in the 8th, but it was Varsho or nobody. He had already lost the DH by then and Trammell was the last bat on the bench. He had to be saved for the 9th when the pitchers sippy was guaranteed to come up (or earlier if Varsho was successful).

The issue wasn't Varsho batting, it's the box that Joe put himself in several moves earlier.

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Exactly. Joe put himself in that position by his smooth-brained moves earlier. Except I will disagree slightly in that having a guy hitting <.150 hitting cleanup was the first of Espada's errors that set up the situation.

CharleyKerfeld said:

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Astros Bingo Update: 8-17-26
Spreadsheet Link

Reasons to Smile
You can do something productive tonight because we're off. I would suggest watching Lanterns on HBO if you haven't already.
Kyle Tucker is in an 0-for-19 slump and is hitting .185 in the last 30 days while the Dodgers have gone 6-11 since July 31 and got their asses handed to them at home by Milwaukee over the weekend. Skubal is now 0-2 in 3 games since the trade.

Reasons to Barf
Hunter Brown isn't an ace, and has scarcely been one this season.
Joe Espada continues to breathe free air on this planet as a MLB manager.

A Square to Remember
12 people are 2 wins away from picking up a square for Colorado winning at least 52 games. They got to 50 on Sunday and are on pace to lose fewer than 100 games this year (65-97) after going 43-119 last year, 61-101 in 2024, and 59-103 in 2023. A feel-good story.

If Framber doesn't beat the Pirates tonight, it will be officially impossible for him to win 13 games, unless he somehow becomes a reliever down the stretch, and that square will go active for anyone who picked <> on his 13 win achievement. It's a real shame that Framber, Tucker, and Bregman are all simultaneously having the worst years of their careers in 2026. Not that I'm bitter.

Astros' Flashback: August 17, 1972: The Astros slaughter the Expos 17-5 as Lee May has four hits including a 3-run homer. It gets so bad that Expos manager Gene Mauch puts shortstop Hector Torres, a former Astro, in to pitch the 9th inning. Torres later tells reporter it's his first time on the mound since "Mexican Little League". He gives up 5 hits and allows 2 runs. The Astros get 20 hits overall, with Cesar Cedeno going 3-for-5 with 4 runs and 4 RBI and Doug Rader going 3-for-6 with 3 RBI. The '72 squad is the Astros' best offense to date in their short history, scoring 10+ runs 12 times and leading the NL in runs scored.

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Let's go Rockies! I'm liking the way this is shaping up. Feeling good about a lot of my picks: Rockies>52, Dodgers<102, Meyers <.280, Hader <90K, Hader<30 saves. I think OPAG and Big Al are my biggest competition.

It is so easy to get stuck in the fallacy of who is good vs. who sucks. Unless you are the Dodgers you can't have a 26 man roster of All Stars.

The issue is utilizing pieces the right way and giving people roles to succeed in. Our bullpen without Hader was much worse than missing one guy with a good ERA. It was everyone pitching in roles beyond their reach. Abreu closing. Middle relievers in leverage, etc.

While he is off to a slow start as an Astro in tiny sample size, Varsho is a good player if used correctly. He should be hitting around 7th in a good lineup, not cleanup. Same thing with Walker. Walker has been the exact guy this year we signed from Arizona. A good glove with big pop and the ability to drive some runs in. He, also, should not be hitting in the heart of a lineup.

Some of this is a Joe problem and much of it is a roster problem. We have a lineup with the best 1-3 OPS in baseball and then 6 guys (plus 4 more on the bench) that belong in the bottom third of a ML lineup.

Justin Thomas has been promoted to Double-A. The outfielder had 20 2B, 17 HR, 34 SB and a .868 OPS in High-A. #Astros pic.twitter.com/hMKrt0R82H

— Astros Future (@AstrosFuture) August 17, 2026

Teddy Perkins said:

---

CharleyKerfeld said:

---

Astros Bingo Update: 8-17-26
Spreadsheet Link

Reasons to Smile
You can do something productive tonight because we're off. I would suggest watching Lanterns on HBO if you haven't already.
Kyle Tucker is in an 0-for-19 slump and is hitting .185 in the last 30 days while the Dodgers have gone 6-11 since July 31 and got their asses handed to them at home by Milwaukee over the weekend. Skubal is now 0-2 in 3 games since the trade.

Reasons to Barf
Hunter Brown isn't an ace, and has scarcely been one this season.
Joe Espada continues to breathe free air on this planet as a MLB manager.

A Square to Remember
12 people are 2 wins away from picking up a square for Colorado winning at least 52 games. They got to 50 on Sunday and are on pace to lose fewer than 100 games this year (65-97) after going 43-119 last year, 61-101 in 2024, and 59-103 in 2023. A feel-good story.

If Framber doesn't beat the Pirates tonight, it will be officially impossible for him to win 13 games, unless he somehow becomes a reliever down the stretch, and that square will go active for anyone who picked <> on his 13 win achievement. It's a real shame that Framber, Tucker, and Bregman are all simultaneously having the worst years of their careers in 2026. Not that I'm bitter.

Astros' Flashback: August 17, 1972: The Astros slaughter the Expos 17-5 as Lee May has four hits including a 3-run homer. It gets so bad that Expos manager Gene Mauch puts shortstop Hector Torres, a former Astro, in to pitch the 9th inning. Torres later tells reporter it's his first time on the mound since "Mexican Little League". He gives up 5 hits and allows 2 runs. The Astros get 20 hits overall, with Cesar Cedeno going 3-for-5 with 4 runs and 4 RBI and Doug Rader going 3-for-6 with 3 RBI. The '72 squad is the Astros' best offense to date in their short history, scoring 10+ runs 12 times and leading the NL in runs scored.

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Let's go Rockies! I'm liking the way this is shaping up. Feeling good about a lot of my picks: Rockies>52, Dodgers<102, Meyers <.280, Hader <90K, Hader<30 saves. I think OPAG and Big Al are my biggest competition.

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I shamefully used AI to see who had the best chance of winning about a month ago, and I think you guys were among the top 5 most likely.

Beau Holder said:

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Woo was 1-8 with a 6.22 ERA on the road btw.

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And the only two wins he's had this year on the road - both against the Astros.