Posey has 1,500 career hits -- just 1,500

that would lower the bar quite a bit in the counting numbers department if he makes it into the Hall

his admittance should make Thurman Munson a lock

their resumes are almost identical

I think Posey gets in, and maybe even on first ballot. Part of what's in his favor is an extremely weak ballot this year so if voters do use all 10 slots, it's hard to see Posey not getting a lot of support.

From a counting perspective, sure. But Buster had a better BA, OBP, SLG, and OPS (obviously). He's got about +17 WAR on Munson.

Salvy is an easy no for me. I think the real question mark is Yadier Molina. For me, he's not a good enough hitter. But others see him very differently. Think Ozzie Smith. The defense is so good he's in despite the poor offense. He hung around a long time and accumulated some counting #s.

Are Mauer, Yadi and Posey really the only HOF catchers of the last 25 years?

AgRyan04 said:

---

Are Mauer, Yadi and Posey really the only HOF catchers of the last 25 years?

---

It's honestly not surprising because of how many guys get moved off catcher now when they are in the minors to fast track their bat and to keep their bat in the lineup. Schwarber was a catcher and so was Ben Rice but they are way more valuable playing everyday and maximizing their value as hitters than they would have been catching.

What we're left with at the position are mostly defensive specialists, journeymen and platoon bats because of how limited the shelf life is for a catcher. Mauer caught 921 games in his career and played 913 at either 1st or DH. Posey caught 1093 games and only played 260 at 1st or DH. Had the DH existed in the NL earlier I guarantee Buster would have spent even more time DHing. Every team knows that it's be nice to have a catcher who can hit like Mauer or Posey, but the cost to the longevity of the career is too high on most cases to keep a guy behind the plate when the value of the bat is so high.

Yadi caught 2184 games which is pretty amazing but he was basically a replacement level hitter for his entire career outside of a 2 year span in 2012 and 2013 where he was really good. His career OPS+ was a 96... which for me is a non starter for his hall of fame case. His counting numbers are ok, but not spectacular. Basically for me if you want to let Yadi in, then Torii Hunter HAS to be in also. He was as good with the glove and a much better hitter. But Torii hasn't gotten close and might fall off the ballot entirely soon if he can't get some momentum.

it's surprising that Munson doesn't get a boost for...

- being the captain of 2 Yankees world series championship teams

- being a phenomenal postseason hitter: .357 BA in 129 at-bats; Playoff OPS of .874

- the rivalry with Carlton Fisk -- it was a huge part of baseball in the 1970's

AggieEP said:

---

AgRyan04 said:

---

Are Mauer, Yadi and Posey really the only HOF catchers of the last 25 years?

---

It's honestly not surprising because of how many guys get moved off catcher now when they are in the minors to fast track their bat and to keep their bat in the lineup. Schwarber was a catcher and so was Ben Rice but they are way more valuable playing everyday and maximizing their value as hitters than they would have been catching.

What we're left with at the position are mostly defensive specialists, journeymen and platoon bats because of how limited the shelf life is for a catcher. Mauer caught 921 games in his career and played 913 at either 1st or DH. Posey caught 1093 games and only played 260 at 1st or DH. Had the DH existed in the NL earlier I guarantee Buster would have spent even more time DHing. Every team knows that it's be nice to have a catcher who can hit like Mauer or Posey, but the cost to the longevity of the career is too high on most cases to keep a guy behind the plate when the value of the bat is so high.

Yadi caught 2184 games which is pretty amazing but he was basically a replacement level hitter for his entire career outside of a 2 year span in 2012 and 2013 where he was really good. His career OPS+ was a 96... which for me is a non starter for his hall of fame case. His counting numbers are ok, but not spectacular. Basically for me if you want to let Yadi in, then Torii Hunter HAS to be in also. He was as good with the glove and a much better hitter. But Torii hasn't gotten close and might fall off the ballot entirely soon if he can't get some momentum.

---

I'm of the mindset that the qualifications should change with the sport.....otherwise we'll end up with no pitchers and 80% DHs

AgRyan04 said:

---

Are Mauer, Yadi and Posey really the only HOF catchers of the last 25 years?

---

Pudge

Piazza

Farmer1906 said:

---

Piazza

---

I think I'd count Piazza and Pudge as being the generation before Mauer, Yadi and Posey even though yes they did get in the hall in the last 25 years.

What do you have in mind as far as changes? I'm open to the idea but unsure of what would make sense and how you would apply that consistently in a way that wouldn't be unfair to players in the past that didn't get in.

As far as Yadi, it's really hard to separate him out from other contemporaries like Jason Kendall, Russell Martin, Jorge Posada and even a current player like JT Realmuto. None of those guys are going to get in, but they all are going to finish at or have finished at a similar career WAR. That means in order to get behind Yadi's case you have to get a bit creative in how you look at him in order to clearly elevate him above those guys. Posada, Kendall and Martin didn't even stay on the ballot for a single year and we're supposed to think Yadi is a hall of famer?

I do think he gets a bump in the minds of fans because he was on one team his whole career and won two WS rings. That creates the feeling that he perhaps had an impact on winning not captured through traditional stats. The below article makes his case based on that idea, concluding that his "it" factor brought a value to the Cardinals that should get him in to Cooperstown. The issue obviously being that measuring an "it" factor is not really a thing we can do.

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/yadier-molinas-hall-of-fame-case-is-perplexing-but-heres-why-the-catcher-is-deserving/

As far as the catching position going forward it looks bleak.

Will Smith (31), Cal Raleigh (29), Adley Rutchsman (29), and Shea Langeleirs (28) are probably the four guys to kind of watch who are mid career, but none of them seem likely to get anywhere close. With the really young guys, maybe Drake Baldwin (25) and Gabriel Moreno (26) could be names to watch, but it's a lot to assume at this point. I'm going to be really curious to see what the Twins do with Vahn Lackey. He's a great athlete and with the big investment in him as the #3 pick and the hope that he can be their next big homegrown star, keeping him behind the plate would be a big win for the position but there are no guarantees we don't see him playing in the outfield to get the bat up to the big leagues.

AggieEP said:

---

Farmer1906 said:

---

Piazza

---

I think I'd count Piazza and Pudge as being the generation before Mauer, Yadi and Posey even though yes they did get in the hall in the last 25 years.

---

Pudge just got in 9 years ago.

I can't believe I lived long enough to see Andrew Jones in the HOF. Vada Pinson was a far better player for 19 years and never sniffed the HOF. Open the flood gates for everyone above average.

The Sun said:

---

AggieEP said:

---

Farmer1906 said:

---

Piazza

---

I think I'd count Piazza and Pudge as being the generation before Mauer, Yadi and Posey even though yes they did get in the hall in the last 25 years.

---

Pudge just got in 9 years ago.

---

I know that, but Pudge broke into the big leagues in 1991 and Piazza debuted in 1992. Mauer (2004), Molina (2004) and Posey (2009) are the group after them IMO.

The reason Pudge only got in 9 years ago is because he was able to stay on the league as a bad hitter for a long time after debuting extremely young. His age 34-39 seasons he averaged 1.1 WAR per year over those 6 seasons before finally retiring in 2011. Piazza didn't break into the big leagues until he was 23 and retired in 2007.

Andruw Jones was a headscratcher

career .254 BA and only 1,933 career hits -- lowering the bars in those categories

Jim Edmonds should be a lock now -- he was a better player

also...we already know that the late 90's to early 00's Braves teams massively underachieved...

but those teams now have 5 Hall of Famers: Glavine, Maddox, Smoltz, Chipper, and Andruw Jones

(plus Gary Sheffield for a couple of seasons)

edit..and Fred McGriff in 1996 & 1997

massively underachieved

W said:

---

Andruw Jones was a headscratcher

career .254 BA and only 1,933 career hits -- lowering the bars in those categories

Jim Edmonds should be a lock now -- he was a better player

---

In a fair world, Andruw Jones getting in should make voters reevaluate Edmonds, Hunter, Lofton and other great center fielders if we're going to give a massive bump for defense for the position.

W said:

---

also...we already know that the late 90's to early 00's Braves teams massively underachieved...

but those teams now have 5 Hall of Famers: Glavine, Maddox, Smoltz, Chipper, and Andruw Jones

(plus Gary Sheffield for a couple of seasons)

edit..and Fred McGriff in 1996 & 1997

massively underachieved

---

It's more than just the Hall of Famers though... those teams were also stacked with lots of other good players like Ron Gant, Terry Pendleton, Marquis Grissom, David Justice, Javy Lopez, Brian Jordan, Ryan Klesko, Kenny Lofton (5 WAR year in 1997), Andres Galaraga (5 WAR year in 1998)

Around their core hall of famers they also had a ton of talent at other positions through the 90s. Just never really materialized into the World Series winning dynasty it felt like it should have. I was a TBS superstation kid, so I watched those Braves teams every night.

AggieEP said:

---

W said:

---

Andruw Jones was a headscratcher

career .254 BA and only 1,933 career hits -- lowering the bars in those categories

Jim Edmonds should be a lock now -- he was a better player

---

In a fair world, Andruw Jones getting in should make voters reevaluate Edmonds, Hunter, Lofton and other great center fielders if we're going to give a massive bump for defense for the position.

---

Andruw Jones has an argument for greatest defensive center fielder of the last 50 years. He's 11th all time in fWAR for CFers.

As much as I hated the Cards, I did enjoy watching Edmonds. He was a great player too. He's worth looking at again. But his defense was worse and his offense was better.

AggieEP said:

---

The Sun said:

---

AggieEP said:

---

Farmer1906 said:

---

Piazza

---

I think I'd count Piazza and Pudge as being the generation before Mauer, Yadi and Posey even though yes they did get in the hall in the last 25 years.

---

Pudge just got in 9 years ago.

---

I know that, but Pudge broke into the big leagues in 1991 and Piazza debuted in 1992. Mauer (2004), Molina (2004) and Posey (2009) are the group after them IMO.

The reason Pudge only got in 9 years ago is because he was able to stay on the league as a bad hitter for a long time after debuting extremely young. His age 34-39 seasons he averaged 1.1 WAR per year over those 6 seasons before finally retiring in 2011. Piazza didn't break into the big leagues until he was 23 and retired in 2007.

---

I agree they are different generations, but the 25 year window grouped them together.

Is the argument that a generation with 3 HOFers (2 IMO) is too little or too much?

If you compare it with 2nd base, the "Pudge" generation now has gotten Roberto Alomar and Jeff Kent in. Meanwhile the Mauer/Posey generation is still sitting on zero, although Utley will likely get in and a miracle might get Pedroia in.

Third base is kind of a similar story with Rolen and Chipper getting on from the previous generation and as of now only Beltre getting in for the newer generation with a miracle needed for David Wright to get in.

So for C, 2B, and 3B the rate is about the same. 1 or 2 tops.

SS and 1B fare much better as do OF if we generically group them together instead of differentiating out the center fielders.

ETA that I'm not a guy that thinks less is more with the HoF. I'd rather we were more open to enshrining deserving players.

Give me Berkman, Lofton, Edmonds, Hunter, Pedroia, Rollins, King Felix and Buerhle.

AggieEP said:

---

Baseball loves round numbers, but I'm thinking something more like 225 makes sense as the new benchmark for wins.

---

225 just sounds so low. I'm sure Cy Young looks at 300 and thinks that pathetic, though.

Probably need to go back in time if it's no longer for the truly elite and induct a few hundred old timers.

AggieEP said:

---

If you compare it with 2nd base, the "Pudge" generation now has gotten Roberto Alomar and Jeff Kent in. Meanwhile the Mauer/Posey generation is still sitting on zero, although Utley will likely get in and a miracle might get Pedroia in.

Third base is kind of a similar story with Rolen and Chipper getting on from the previous generation and as of now only Beltre getting in for the newer generation with a miracle needed for David Wright to get in.

So for C, 2B, and 3B the rate is about the same. 1 or 2 tops.

SS and 1B fare much better as do OF if we generically group them together instead of differentiating out the center fielders.

ETA that I'm not a guy that thinks less is more with the HoF. I'd rather we were more open to enshrining deserving players.

Give me Berkman, Lofton, Edmonds, Hunter, Pedroia, Rollins, King Felix and Buerhle.

---

I am confused. How is the Mauer group at zero?

I think the 1-3 per generation sounds about right. With OFs having more because there are more of them.

If anything we're in a SS drought right about now. Jeter was the last one in and his prime ended 17 years ago. I am interested in the Lindor, Seager, Correa, Turner group coming in 10-15 years.

Zero 2nd basemen from that era (2004-present)

Although I think Utley will get in.

jja79 said:

---

Probably need to go back in time if it's no longer for the truly elite and induct a few hundred old timers.

---

This goes back to what AgRyan said, should hall entry criteria evolve with the game? If yes, I don't think we need to let in 100 old timers, you just have to figure out what metrics make more sense to use to figure out who the elite ball players are and use those instead of old metrics like BA, wins and RBIs.

Although interestingly, Jeff Kent really went all in on RBIs in his speech yesterday. Not sure if that was a dig at the analytics community or just his personal opinion but it seemed intentional.

jja79 said:

---

I can't believe I lived long enough to see Andrew Jones in the HOF. Vada Pinson was a far better player for 19 years and never sniffed the HOF. Open the flood gates for everyone above average.

---

Yep, this is what you get when the HOF clowns refuse to consider the players with exceptional talent during the steroid era. Carlos Beltran, Jeff Kent, Andruw Jones.

I don't even care anymore. The HOF is a complete joke.

W said:

---

Adam Dunn should have received more consideration for the Hall of Fame...

because he was a player ahead of his time -- the original mister one-true-outcome of the 21st century

---

For this reason alone, Dunn should be banned from the Hall. One True Outcome is one of the worst things to happen to the game.

here's a dark horse candidate for the Hall of Fame ----> Matt Olson

primarily for one reason: his consecutive games played streak reached 900 over the weekend

in three seasons he could be 3rd all-time behind Ripken and Gehrig

and as a result of playing every day, his career WAR and counting numbers could move into HoF range

current career WAR is 44.1; current HR total is 322

I like Matt Olson, but Hall of Famers generally feel like Hall of Famers. Olson doesn't give me that impression right now. He reads as consistently very good rather than truly elite. Maybe that changes if he sustains this level for another 6+ years, but at the moment his peak just doesn't stack up with players who either don't get in or get criticized for getting in.

Take Andruw Jones, for example. Yes, comparing a center fielder to a first baseman is kinda dumb, but Jones is someone many people argue against as a Hall of Famer , yet his peak is still on another level. Jones posted bWAR seasons of 8.2, 7.4, 7.1, 6.7, 6.5, and 5.6. That's six seasons of legitimate superstar or MVP caliber production. Olson, by comparison, has seasons of 7.5, 6.2, 5.9, and 5.1. Fewer elite years, and the top end isn't as high. Unless he's about to have a late career surge like Bonds, Beltrn, Beltre, or Ortiz, I don't see Olson getting close to Jones's peak value.

I think position is also important to consider. Look at the last several 1B to make the HOF.

• Frank Thomas - 154 wRC+ / 72.1 fWAR
• Jeff Bagwell - 149 / 80.2
• Jim Thome - 145 / 69.0
• Fred McGriff - 134 / 56.9
• Matt Olson - 134 / 35.0
• Todd Helton - 132 / 54.9

I'm not sure he's got another 20 WAR left in the tank, not to mention his offense is already near the bottom of the HOF threshold before late-career decline.

While I think the modern ironman is cool, he's probably not quite good enough.

Blind Resumes, Second Base Edition

1. Do you think any should be in the HOF? If so, which letters?
2. How would you rank them?


A. Lou Whitaker
19 Seasons
Pos: 2B
--
fWAR: 68.1
bWAR: 75.1
--
wRC+: 118
BA: .276
OBP: .363
SLG: .426
OPS: .789
--
Hits: 2369
HR: 244
--
Awards: 1x ROY, 5x AS, 4x SS*, 3x GG


B. Chase Utley
16 Seasons
Pos: 2B
--
fWAR: 61.5
bWAR: 64.6
--
wRC+: 118
BA: .275
OBP: .358
SLG: .465
OPS: .823
--
Hits: 1885
HR: 259
--
Awards: 6x AS, 4x SS


C. Jose Altuve
16 Seasons
Pos: 2B
--
fWAR: 60.9
bWAR: 53.6
--
wRC+: 127
BA: .300
OBP: .358
SLG: .463
OPS: .820
--
Hits: 2477
HR: 268
--
Awards: 1x MVP, 9x AS, 7x SS, 1x GG


D. Bobby Grich
17 Seasons
Pos: 2B
--
fWAR: 69.1
bWAR: 71.1
--
wRC+: 129
BA: .266
OBP: .371
SLG: .424
OPS: .794
--
Hits: 1833
HR: 224
--
Awards: 6x AS, 1x SS**, 4x GG


E. Marcus Semien
14 Seasons
Pos: 2B
--
fWAR: 38.7
bWAR: 49.0
--
wRC+: 107
BA: .251
OBP: .319
SLG: .431
OPS: .750
--
Hits: 1690
HR: 267
--
Awards: 3x AS, 2x SS, 2x GG, 3x Top 3 MVP finishes


F. Dustin Pedoria
14 Seasons
Pos: 2B
--
fWAR: 44.8
bWAR: 51.8
--
wRC+: 115
BA: .299
OBP: .365
SLG: .439
OPS: .805
--
Hits: 1805
HR: 140
--
Awards: 1x MVP, 1x ROY, 4x AS, 1x SS**, 4x GG


*Part of the career predates the SS
**A significant part of the career predates the SS

A,B,C and F should be in.


For fairness, since I know the resume, F should say 12 years because the final 2 years were after his career was essentially ended by a dirty play. And if the rule to be eligible is to have at least 10 years of service time, then players like F should be in. Especially when there are extenuating circumstances like a career ending injury.

Sorta related….the legends coming in from the corn field was awesome.