Farmer1906 said:

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Lets throw some data on this.



As trendy as the sinker is, its still used much less and is less valuable than the ole 4 seamer. The slider is still the king.

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This chart emphasizes my original point. Whomever collected this data combined the two-seam and sinker together. They are two different pitches. A two-seam fastball creates arm side horizontal movement by applying more pressure to the middle finger. The sinker creates vertical movement by applying more pressure on the index finger and allows the pitcher to "get on top" of the ball. For some reason the data collection nerds have lumped them together, but I assure you, the pitching community still views them as different pitches. Referencing the chart above, I would bet that the sinker makes up a fairly small percentage of the data.

Life is rough after signing with the Twins.

Carlos Correa with Correa Construction was arrested after having warrants for more than $500,000 in default judgments, allegedly stole $30,000 from 92-year-old client. https://t.co/wd5gb9VC38

— FOX26Houston (@FOX26Houston) March 12, 2025

Miles Finch said:

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Farmer1906 said:

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Lets throw some data on this.



As trendy as the sinker is, its still used much less and is less valuable than the ole 4 seamer. The slider is still the king.

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This chart emphasizes my original point. Whomever collected this data combined the two-seam and sinker together. They are two different pitches. A two-seam fastball creates arm side horizontal movement by applying more pressure to the middle finger. The sinker creates vertical movement by applying more pressure on the index finger and allows the pitcher to "get on top" of the ball. For some reason the data collection nerds have lumped them together, but I assure you, the pitching community still views them as different pitches. Referencing the chart above, I would bet that the sinker makes up a fairly small percentage of the data.

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Its pretty standard now to lump them together because at the professional level, the move similarly enough to keep them as one pitch.

Here are all the pitchers who regularly threw sinkers / 2 seamers from 2024.

Where would you draw the line for sinkers vs 2 seamers? It feels like a pretty good cluster. If you compare it to 4 seams, sliders, and curves there is a much wider spread. https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/pitch-movement?year=2024&min=q&pitch_type=CU&hand=&x=pitcher_break_x_hidden&z=pitcher_break_z_hidden

Tuve mistimed a jump at the wall, and turned a deep fly into a triple. Arrighetti gets a K and ground out to preserve the zero in the inning.

The Chicago Cubs, looking for starting rotation depth, have now entered negotiations with veteran Lance Lynn on a one-year, MLB contract.

— Bob Nightengale (@BNightengale) March 13, 2025

👀👀👀👀 https://t.co/OSvGZBC4rV

— Michael Schwab (@michaelschwab13) March 13, 2025

César Salazar has hit a grand slam and Collin Price has homered as the split-squad Astros have an 8-0 lead over the Marlins in Jupiter.

— Brian McTaggart (@brianmctaggart) March 13, 2025

EastCoastAgNc said:

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👀👀👀👀 https://t.co/OSvGZBC4rV

— Michael Schwab (@michaelschwab13) March 13, 2025

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Stop reporting stats. They don't matter.

Farmer1906 said:

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Miles Finch said:

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Farmer1906 said:

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Lets throw some data on this.



As trendy as the sinker is, its still used much less and is less valuable than the ole 4 seamer. The slider is still the king.

---

This chart emphasizes my original point. Whomever collected this data combined the two-seam and sinker together. They are two different pitches. A two-seam fastball creates arm side horizontal movement by applying more pressure to the middle finger. The sinker creates vertical movement by applying more pressure on the index finger and allows the pitcher to "get on top" of the ball. For some reason the data collection nerds have lumped them together, but I assure you, the pitching community still views them as different pitches. Referencing the chart above, I would bet that the sinker makes up a fairly small percentage of the data.

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Its pretty standard now to lump them together because at the professional level, the move similarly enough to keep them as one pitch.

Here are all the pitchers who regularly threw sinkers / 2 seamers from 2024.

Where would you draw the line for sinkers vs 2 seamers? It feels like a pretty good cluster. If you compare it to 4 seams, sliders, and curves there is a much wider spread. https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/pitch-movement?year=2024&min=q&pitch_type=CU&hand=&x=pitcher_break_x_hidden&z=pitcher_break_z_hidden

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Even the nastiest two-seamers have a little vertical movement due to gravity and throwing from a mound. Same for a sinker, even a perfectly executed pitch will still have a little arm side horizontal movement. To answer your question, I would think the data can be sliced by any pitch that has a greater horizontal movement vs vertical movement can be identified as a two-seam and vice versa, any pitch with more vertical vs horizontal movement can be labeled a sinker. The tricky distinction in that approach is separating the sinker vs the splitter. The splitter will have greater vertical movement and probably zero to very little horizontal.

Farmer1906 said:

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Miles Finch said:

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Farmer1906 said:

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Lets throw some data on this.



As trendy as the sinker is, its still used much less and is less valuable than the ole 4 seamer. The slider is still the king.

---

This chart emphasizes my original point. Whomever collected this data combined the two-seam and sinker together. They are two different pitches. A two-seam fastball creates arm side horizontal movement by applying more pressure to the middle finger. The sinker creates vertical movement by applying more pressure on the index finger and allows the pitcher to "get on top" of the ball. For some reason the data collection nerds have lumped them together, but I assure you, the pitching community still views them as different pitches. Referencing the chart above, I would bet that the sinker makes up a fairly small percentage of the data.

---

Its pretty standard now to lump them together because at the professional level, the move similarly enough to keep them as one pitch.

Here are all the pitchers who regularly threw sinkers / 2 seamers from 2024.

Where would you draw the line for sinkers vs 2 seamers? It feels like a pretty good cluster. If you compare it to 4 seams, sliders, and curves there is a much wider spread. https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/pitch-movement?year=2024&min=q&pitch_type=CU&hand=&x=pitcher_break_x_hidden&z=pitcher_break_z_hidden

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For me, I would call the loose grouping of pitches with 10-15+ inches vertical drop and less than about 12 inches of horizontal motion sinkers and the rest 2-seam. As suggested above, they appear to be a pretty small portion of the overall total # of pitches.

anyone been to steinbrenner field in tampa? planning on going to an astros game there in may. any tips? where to sit? where to park?

The Tampa Bay Rays will not proceed with the development of a $1.3 billion baseball stadium in St. Petersburg, Florida, principal owner Stuart Sternberg said. https://t.co/f3nQ5E8ac3

— ESPN (@espn) March 13, 2025

EastCoastAgNc said:

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The Chicago Cubs, looking for starting rotation depth, have now entered negotiations with veteran Lance Lynn on a one-year, MLB contract.

— Bob Nightengale (@BNightengale) March 13, 2025

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In other news, the entire north side of Chicago just sank into Lake Michigan.

EastCoastAgNc said:

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The Chicago Cubs, looking for starting rotation depth, have now entered negotiations with veteran Lance Lynn on a one-year, MLB contract.

— Bob Nightengale (@BNightengale) March 13, 2025

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They need a Wesneski.

Farmer1906 said:

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The Tampa Bay Rays will not proceed with the development of a $1.3 billion baseball stadium in St. Petersburg, Florida, principal owner Stuart Sternberg said. https://t.co/f3nQ5E8ac3

— ESPN (@espn) March 13, 2025

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Pretty interesting read. The Rays only have 3 years left on their lease at Tropicana. They are hoping to be back there for the start of the 2026 season. The repair costs are $56 million. It looks like 2025 doesn't count as one of those seasons though.

Last spring they and the city had talked about a new 30,000 seat stadium as pat of a $6.5 billion renovation to some historic district in St. Pete. The stadium was somehow going to cost $1.3 billion.

We have a unanimous pick for Dork of the Week!@Ken_Rosenthal and @alannarizzo offer up whatever the opposite of a tip of the cap is... 🧢 pic.twitter.com/bOgaaDoMYt

— Foul Territory (@FoulTerritoryTV) March 13, 2025

AustinCountyAg said:

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texasaggie2015 said:

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Yep.. I know I sound like a broken record but don't look at ST stats. Players don't and coaches don't. Neither should we.

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for the guys on the bubble fighting for a roster spot the stats dang sure do matter

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I ignore comments about ignoring Grapefruit results. I've been to a few spring trainings, so I know how they work. It is the "trust me" blanket statement that makes me laugh.

Vets- absolutely throw them out. Vets work on things, experiment, and try new mechanics and pitches. Younger guys- pay attention. Someone just brought up Dirden's performance last year or before. You think he would have made the team without a strong spring? It was fool's gold, but he got a shot because he earned the attention of the coaches.

You can't throw the same "spring training doesn't matter" blanket over players of different stature like Altuve and Smith. It's myopic at best.

yelling-at-cloud moment over! lol

Marvin said:

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AustinCountyAg said:

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texasaggie2015 said:

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Yep.. I know I sound like a broken record but don't look at ST stats. Players don't and coaches don't. Neither should we.

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for the guys on the bubble fighting for a roster spot the stats dang sure do matter

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I ignore comments about ignoring Grapefruit results. I've been to a few spring trainings, so I know how they work. It is the "trust me" blanket statement that makes me laugh.

Vets- absolutely throw them out. Vets work on things, experiment, and try new mechanics and pitches. Younger guys- pay attention. Someone just brought up Dirden's performance last year or before. You think he would have made the team without a strong spring? It was fool's gold, but he got a shot because he earned the attention of the coaches.

You can't throw the same "spring training doesn't matter" blanket over players of different stature like Altuve and Smith. It's myopic at best.

yelling-at-cloud moment over! lol

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Justin Dirden never played in the big leagues.

texasaggie2015 said:

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Marvin said:

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AustinCountyAg said:

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texasaggie2015 said:

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Yep.. I know I sound like a broken record but don't look at ST stats. Players don't and coaches don't. Neither should we.

---

for the guys on the bubble fighting for a roster spot the stats dang sure do matter

---

I ignore comments about ignoring Grapefruit results. I've been to a few spring trainings, so I know how they work. It is the "trust me" blanket statement that makes me laugh.

Vets- absolutely throw them out. Vets work on things, experiment, and try new mechanics and pitches. Younger guys- pay attention. Someone just brought up Dirden's performance last year or before. You think he would have made the team without a strong spring? It was fool's gold, but he got a shot because he earned the attention of the coaches.

You can't throw the same "spring training doesn't matter" blanket over players of different stature like Altuve and Smith. It's myopic at best.

yelling-at-cloud moment over! lol

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Justin Dirden never played in the big leagues.

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Whoever it was. You get my point, or you can ignore it.

I can spot at least 7 things that are different from the final. First off, the real jerseys are white, not cream.

These look similar but it's not the final.

— Michael Schwab (@michaelschwab13) March 13, 2025

Trying to get some intel on this as we speak...

Marvin said:

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AustinCountyAg said:

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texasaggie2015 said:

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Yep.. I know I sound like a broken record but don't look at ST stats. Players don't and coaches don't. Neither should we.

---

for the guys on the bubble fighting for a roster spot the stats dang sure do matter

---

I ignore comments about ignoring Grapefruit results. I've been to a few spring trainings, so I know how they work. It is the "trust me" blanket statement that makes me laugh.

Vets- absolutely throw them out. Vets work on things, experiment, and try new mechanics and pitches. Younger guys- pay attention. Someone just brought up Dirden's performance last year or before. You think he would have made the team without a strong spring? It was fool's gold, but he got a shot because he earned the attention of the coaches.

You can't throw the same "spring training doesn't matter" blanket over players of different stature like Altuve and Smith. It's myopic at best.

yelling-at-cloud moment over! lol

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I think the point it spring training stats certainly is a part of evaluating the young guys, but it's likely the least important thing the coaches and GMs look at.

For instance, I don't think coaches and GMs are looking at Cam Smith and saying, wow, he's batting .450, he's gotta make the team. He's standing out because he's playing well and doing things the right way. Stats are a reflection of that, but could he be hitting it hard, taking good ABs, and not having much to show for it? Certainly. The sample sizes are so small.

Both Loperfido and Arraghetti had really strong springs last year, and they didn't make it out of camp with the big league club. They didn't stand out because of their stats (although I'm sure it played a small roll). They stood out because they played well and did things the right way. It's not a coincidence they were called up when needed last season.

So yes, the absolute of "spring training stats don't matter" can't be blindly applied to all players, but I think it's fair to recognize they probably don't play a large role in determining if a young guys makes it out of spring training with the big club as they are essentially a function of playing well.

Farmer1906 said:

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Farmer1906 said:

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Lets throw some data on this.



As trendy as the sinker is, its still used much less and is less valuable than the ole 4 seamer. The slider is still the king.

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The Astros are a huge outlier. It kind of makes sense. We don't have velo fiends gassing it by everyone.

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Even with the never-ending quest for velo, it still matters less than movement and location. 101mph that doesn't have any run or carry is easier for the pros to hit than 94 with some life.

It's why Cristian Javier has had success at 92-94. He's got great life on his 4-seam and his motion also conceals the ball well. And why Dallas Keuchel won a Cy Young despite sitting about 89-91.

This is very well said and I agree.

Beat40 said:

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Marvin said:

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AustinCountyAg said:

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texasaggie2015 said:

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Yep.. I know I sound like a broken record but don't look at ST stats. Players don't and coaches don't. Neither should we.

---

for the guys on the bubble fighting for a roster spot the stats dang sure do matter

---

I ignore comments about ignoring Grapefruit results. I've been to a few spring trainings, so I know how they work. It is the "trust me" blanket statement that makes me laugh.

Vets- absolutely throw them out. Vets work on things, experiment, and try new mechanics and pitches. Younger guys- pay attention. Someone just brought up Dirden's performance last year or before. You think he would have made the team without a strong spring? It was fool's gold, but he got a shot because he earned the attention of the coaches.

You can't throw the same "spring training doesn't matter" blanket over players of different stature like Altuve and Smith. It's myopic at best.

yelling-at-cloud moment over! lol

---

I think the point it spring training stats certainly is a part of evaluating the young guys, but it's likely the least important thing the coaches and GMs look at.

For instance, I don't think coaches and GMs are looking at Cam Smith and saying, wow, he's batting .450, he's gotta make the team. He's standing out because he's playing well and doing things the right way. Stats are a reflection of that, but could he be hitting it hard, taking good ABs, and not having much to show for it? Certainly. The sample sizes are so small.

Both Loperfido and Arraghetti had really strong springs last year, and they didn't make it out of camp with the big league club. They didn't stand out because of their stats (although I'm sure it played a small roll). They stood out because they played well and did things the right way. It's not a coincidence they were called up when needed last season.

So yes, the absolute of "spring training stats don't matter" can't be blindly applied to all players, but I think it's fair to recognize they probably don't play a large role in determining if a young guys makes it out of spring training with the big club as they are essentially a function of playing well.

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We can agree on that. I never said stats are the sole indicator. And, while I'm sure it has happened in baseball, I've never seen a rookie hit .150 or give up 20 runs in spring training and make an opening day roster. Counting stats usually follow good results, so they are often (not always) linked. So yes, the coaches see much more and evaluate based on the entire picture- but rookies make clubs because of strong springs, whereas vets have already proven their value. that was my overall point.

And I'm a little cranky today. It's been a long week in Memphis- I'm ready to leave while the number of perforated bodies is still single digits. This place is stupid.

Phil Maton gets $2M plus awards bonuses on Cardinals deal. Hometown team for Springfield, Ill. area product

— Jon Heyman (@JonHeyman) March 13, 2025

But his guady OPS is fun!!!

Forrest Whitley has a bone bruise in his left knee and will be no-throw for a few days, Joe Espada said. Whitley felt something on a pitch in his last outing against the Yankees and had an MRI.

— Matt Kawahara (@matthewkawahara) March 13, 2025

EastCoastAgNc said:

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Forrest Whitley has a bone bruise in his left knee and will be no-throw for a few days, Joe Espada said. Whitley felt something on a pitch in his last outing against the Yankees and had an MRI.

— Matt Kawahara (@matthewkawahara) March 13, 2025

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Weird injury.

AJ Blubaugh, Blake Weiman and Jesus Bastidas were reassigned to minor-league camp.

— Chandler Rome (@Chandler_Rome) March 13, 2025