That is the reason the mindset has to change starting as kids. If they want to be able to sustain success there has to be concessions made so they don't have to go as extreme. Raise the mound expand the strike zone give the pitchers a fighting chance. A few seconds on the pitch clock is not going to address it at all. It is a repetitive use/damage injury that shows up with catastrophic failure. There are warning signs (sore elbow, forearm tightness) etc. They show up when it is too late though.

Reminds me of a joke.

Patient: "Doctor, doctor... it hurts when I do this."

Doctor: "Then stop doing that."

Patient: "Oh."

I was actually going to start a thread tracking P injuries but seemed there were too many.

I think the pitch clock limits a P's ability to listen to their body. Sometimes you need to take a deep breath and listen to your body. The pitch clock says, "batter up." Not saying it is a cause as much as recognizing there should be consideration.

All-in-all... the P is responsible for his health Competitor or not.

WINNING has become too important. We discussed this in passing in the Rangers thread.

Whether it is Kerry Woods or some nobody we've got to do a better job. Competitor or not. We should be teaching young athletes how to LOVE the sport more than WINNING. Baseball used to be a cerebral sport. Now it is about power. HR-BB-K pays well. 13K/9 pays.

Owners could play a role. Don't build in a TJ into the contract and overpay for a power pitcher when a Maddux type pitcher will get you more value.

Now that the Rangers have won the WS... we should focus more on Loving the game and not WINNING.

I think he nailed it in many aspects.

He referenced 2016. Keep in mind in 2018 MLB officially took over Rawlings and the manufacture of baseballs. It was later disclosed that MLB was "juicing" some balls.

This has been happening for a long time. I mean think back to Mark Prior. Nobody knows why it happens or how to prevent it

DustyBaker said:

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This has been happening for a long time. I mean think back to Mark Prior. Nobody knows why it happens or how to prevent it

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Yeah, thanks a lot for how you handled/managed Prior and Wood during your Cubs reign.

This is all overblown largely

A few bigger names than normal that happened relatively close together

Just saw Strider out for season

A couple things that stand out to me reading this thread.....

First, how pitchers in history, no matter how recent, performed with lower velocity is kind of irrelevant. The game is different, the hitters are different. And I guarantee if those pitchers had the tools available now they'd be chasing spin and velocity as well.

Second, "the mindset needs to change" simply is not going to happen. The genie is not going back in the bottle on it's own. You aren't going to convince a kid chasing millions of dollars to take it easier when he can look at tools like spin rate, see how he compares, know what he can do to adjust, and make those adjustments. Similarly, you aren't going to convince the players in the league that they'll be find with a couple mph off their fastball...

So....I think it comes down to MLB. I know everyone loves to bash the rule changes, but something has to happen. The easiest parallel is the NFL and their recent run of QB injuries. Rules were changed, people *****ed, but, guess what, less QBs are getting injured.....Not sure what rule changes would be applied to counter this, tying DH to starting pitcher only, changing of roster spots, etc., But I imagine the rule route will be the way this is approached.

He is right. It will come down to a team figuring out how to keep their top line pitchers healthy and gaining a real advantage to change the mindset in MLB management circles.

I would like to see rule changes in youth baseball first. That's where it starts and Wes Ag is 100% right about arm injuries in kids. It's insane how much these kids do at young ages today.

I'm not sure how much of that contributes to the problems today but I'm sure it contributes somewhat.


And I agree it will have to be addressed in the rules. Same thing NFL did. Same thing PGA is trying to do. But I have no idea how. In my opinion the pitch clock is a big win for the fans but maybe they need to give the pitchers one pause per AB or something. Don't know.

Smeghead4761 said:

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Greg Maddux seemed to do okay with a fastball that was what? 80? 85? Almost entirely on the ability to locate and change speeds.

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Umpires weren't graded by a computer on the strike zone back then. I am confident that Maddux could figure it out in this era but he would be a different guy not getting 6 inches on the outside corner.

htxag09 said:

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I agree with youth baseball.

The amount of baseball kids play today is asinine. Tournaments every weekend in 8U. So dumb, but...money....

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Yea that's not what I'm really referring to and would disagree that getting your boy and his friends together to play baseball on the weekends is dumb. We love select baseball and the weekend trips and all of that.

Problem is too many innings played by too few kids resulting in too many throws from young developing arms. But that can all be fixed.

Select baseball can be pretty easily fixed by limiting bracket sizes, reducing pitch counts, and forcing teams to carry more players. And coaches would generally support that. The challenge is the parents understanding the dangers I've overuse and understanding why limits are needed.

I will leave it at that. Hopefully we can keep this from becoming a select baseball bashing thread.

htxag09 said:

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Not sure how you acknowledge that youth baseball is an issue then defend select baseball and what it's become....select baseball is the reason kids are throwing every weekend...year round...

ETA: I don't think select/travel baseball in itself is bad. I think what it has become is absolutely bad. And in many ways.

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I think we are just talking passed each other.

I pretty clearly said that it needs major changes because of what it has become. Not sure where you think I was defending it.


Edit to add- I don't internet fight so just read my post again. If you still think I was defending select baseball just move on.


Edit to add one more thing. When I said I love Select baseball I should have clarified that to say 'I love our family's experience with Select baseball. But I was pretty clear it has major issues.

Smeghead4761 said:

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Greg Maddux seemed to do okay with a fastball that was what? 80? 85? Almost entirely on the ability to locate and change speeds.

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At the end of his career it was mid 80s but prior to that he was often in the low 90s.

What would happen if they did these two things?

Raised the seems making it easier to create spin

Limit spin rates by fines and maybe even ball strikes calls.

For example, pitcher A has what we now use in high school. But if he spins something more than whatever number it's an automatic ball.


I don't know. It probably wouldn't work. But it's an idea.

agsalaska said:

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What would happen if they did these two things?

Raised the seems making it easier to create spin

Limit spin rates by fines and maybe even ball strikes calls.

For example, pitcher A has what we now use in high school. But if he spins something more than whatever number it's an automatic ball.


I don't know. It probably wouldn't work. But it's an idea.

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Some every game would be required to own and calibrate a device to monitor spin rates and you'll have a pitch clock to determine within?!

Raising seems, I think, would turn most pitchers into breaking ball pitchers. Pressure differentials I think would increase. Similar to how an airplane wing lifts a plane or how you get all your trash in the pickup right behind the cab... you are creating a Low pressure on the backside that will impact movement.

Chiming in.

I believe there was a study that showed pitchers from the South tended to have TJs at a higher rate than pitchers in the North. The speculation was year-round ball is played in the South and not in the North, where it is cold and athletes are forced to play other sports. That was something I recall hearing reported 10-15 years ago.

The solution won't start in Youth sports. I just don't see enough coaches adhering to PCs, let alone other rules. Maybe they are more strictly enforced now?! I know the private school a kid of mine went to required players who played on the HS team had to play on the Select/Club team that was attached. It was to control the PC Pitchers were getting where the same coach had the player for both HS and Club. Kids playing for HS and Club were getting caught throwing for their HS and then for their Club that same week without telling the coaches the truth about how many they threw. That issue may be resolved.

I think the solution come in MLB contracts. Teams have been building in TJs into big contracts. Take deGrom. When the Rangers signed him, most people just assumed he'd get a TJ surgery and we just didn't know. So, he got TJ (2nd) and he'll return to play a couple years until his arm blows out again. It is the cost of doing business.

That may change, now. If teams start to realize there may be a way to work around not having 2 dead years in a contract, players may not accept that they'll likely have to have TJ but still get paid.

JD (former Rangers GM) got tired of dead TJ money and was vocal that he'd prefer signing 3 $10M SPs than 1 $30M SP. He knew TJs were inevitable and if he spent all his money on a $30M guy, if he went down, we're down at AAA or AA looking for Innings for 2 years. If he had 3 $10M SPs... one blows his arm out, you have another $10M guy behind him and the drop off won't be as substantial as a AA guy.

CY, like JD has been enamored with the "recent TJ in rehab" project. He signed Mahle for 2 years with the 1st being a recovery. That puts more pressure on the P. Snell and Montgomery are more likely to position themselves to stay healthy in 2024 because if they blow their arm out, they may not get paid for a couple years of rehab. Certainly not the $25-30M. Maybe the $5.5M Mahle is getting.

The trickle down would be slow. Teams need to put more focus early in the draft for guys who know how to pitch and not just heat throwers.

Pitchers should learn to change speeds on pitches. Found this gem from Greg Maddux:

"Sometimes hitters can pick up differences in spin. They can identify pitches if there are different release points...But if a pitcher can change speeds, every hitter is helpless, limited by human vision.

Except that <expletive> Tony Gwinn."

Finding a way to clone 1968 Bob Gibson would help, too. 34 starts, 28 CGs, was pinch hit for in all six games he didn't finish. Never taken out otherwise. 1.12 ERA in 304 2/3 innings.