Seamen 4
Angels 4

Bottom of 9th 0 outs

Manfred ball

Extras

Nice couple of punchies there to keep the game winnable

Hell yeah

SpaceCityAg05 said:

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Sorry to bump my own TLDR post, but I realized it was too long and involved to post during the game (especially as I was posting from the ballpark). But I am nonetheless fascinated by any insights anyone might have on this question which seems very unsettled to me by the MLB rulebook.

SpaceCityAg05 said:

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OK, a question from a baseball junkie to anyone with umpiring experience. A play in the first inning made we wonder about a hypothetical. Even after looking at the MLB rulebook, I cannot find a clear answer.

Obviously, if a runner on 1B attempts a stolen base on a pitch which ends up being ball 4, the throwdown is rendered irrelevant as the runner is granted the base automatically. However, it is not a dead ball situation. If the runner attempts to advance past second, he can be tagged out.

My question, if in the stolen base attempt on ball 4, the runner slides in, the ball is thrown down and the tag is applied, can the runner be called out if he slides past the base or pops back off the bag after touching it initially? This type of tag situation comes up on snap tags at the base all the time now.

Would the runner be "live" so to speak having already touched his automatically granted base and coming back off again on his slide? Or is it like a play on running through first where you have to make an obvious turn towards the next base to be considered live again?

Can the runner sliding into 2B be tagged out after popping back off the bag, or is he considered safe until he makes a deliberate act towards the next base?

Given the frequency of reviews on pop-off plays at 2B on stolen base attempts, I am wondering if this could be a challengable play in the scenario above on what is usually treated as a de facto dead ball (even though the ball usually remains live on a BB).

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I certainly cannot site a rule, but to me I would think just like overrunning first base the runner is safe as long as he doesn't make any move that could be considered a deliberate move towards 3rd base.


Seems very analogous to me

I'm not an umpire, but I played all through school up until I hit college. I got this from Wikipedia. Search "Base on Balls". The reason there is no throw to second, even if he was stealing, is because of the force that the BB caused.

When a walk occurs, the ball is still live: any runner not forced to advance may nevertheless attempt to advance at his own risk, which might occur on a steal play, passed ball, or wild pitch. Also, because a ball is live when a base on balls occurs, runners on base forced to advance one base may attempt to advance beyond one base, at their own risk. The batter-runner himself may attempt to advance beyond first base, at his own risk. Rule 6.08 addresses this matter as well.

You and I are in the same boat in terms of playing experience, and I indeed did see that entry, but it still leaves ambiguity. The runner has the right to the base, as listed. But if the runner has touched said base and come back off again in a live ball scenario, is he in play?

I am torn. By straight rulebook, it seems like the answer is yes - he could be tagged out once he touches the awarded base but comes off again. My baseball intuition says it is like a runner going through first base - he is fine until he makes that subjective "turn" towards the next base.

My question is simply one of geekdom - I cannot find an actual ruling on this question in the rulebook.

That's my understanding. He can't be tagged out going 1st the 2nd, because the force caused by the BB, but as the ball is still live, once he steps off second toward 3rd, it's at his own risk. We had a hidden ball play run against us I think in HS where the SS got thrown the ball from the pitcher, like he was trying to keep the runner on 2nd. This was just after a mound huddle of the coach and the infield. A walk had just been issued, we had guys at 1st and second, 2 outs. Our baserunners weren't paying attention, and SS faked a throw to P. He quickly went back to his fielding position.
When our guy stepped off, SS ran up like he was anticipating another pick. Pitcher wheeled around, and SS tagged our guy out. Then he produced the ball, showing it to the ump. Out.

SpaceCityAg05 said:

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You and I are in the same boat in terms of playing experience, and I indeed did see that entry, but it still leaves ambiguity. The runner has the right to the base, as listed. But if the runner has touched said base and come back off again in a live ball scenario, is he in play?

I am torn. By straight rulebook, it seems like the answer is yes - he could be tagged out once he touches the awarded base but comes off again. My baseball intuition says it is like a runner going through first base - he is fine until he makes that subjective "turn" towards the next base.

My question is simply one of geekdom - I cannot find an actual ruling on this question in the rulebook.

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The rule about going through first is unique to first.

Once a runner that is forced to second on a walk touches the bag, if he comes off the bag regardless of the circumstance, and is tagged, he is out.

But IF this is the case, then it means that on a stolen base attempt on ball 4, the defense should play it out. Usually everyone gives up on the play.

But as we have seen in the replay era, a significant percentage of runners sliding into second pop back off of the bag. Theoretically, IF the interpretation is correct, you could apply the tag as usual and challenge the play to see if the runner popped off of the bag, just as you could if the walk never happened.

But you always see fielders and umpire give up on the play as the runner slides in as they see ball 4 called. Just wondering if there is a loophole of sorts here that could be exploited.

jkag89 said:

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MaxPower said:

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Dunno how to post a gif but

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Posting a gif is just like posting a pic, just need the proper url.

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I'm using the add image feature from my phone. Doesn't post anything animated.

Hornbeck said:

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That's my understanding. He can't be tagged out going 1st the 2nd, because the force caused by the BB, but as the ball is still live, once he steps off second toward 3rd, it's at his own risk. We had a hidden ball play run against us I think in HS where the SS got thrown the ball from the pitcher, like he was trying to keep the runner on 2nd. This was just after a mound huddle of the coach and the infield. A walk had just been issued, we had guys at 1st and second, 2 outs. Our baserunners weren't paying attention, and SS faked a throw to P. He quickly went back to his fielding position.
When our guy stepped off, SS ran up like he was anticipating another pick. Pitcher wheeled around, and SS tagged our guy out. Then he produced the ball, showing it to the ump. Out.

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Pitcher should not have been able to toe the rubber without the ball, much less come set and attempt a fake pickoff move. That's a balk. But in regard to the other play, yes it's live after he touches the base as long as umpires haven't given time after both players touch their respective bases.

BadAggie said:

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50-44
1.5 games back of 3rd Wild Card spot
1.0 games back of Division lead

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He survived

very good win last night

would have been nice to have seen it...but hurricane...

We have the hardest SOS remaining in the AL West. Seattle has the easiest. Need to keep winning series against bad teams.