I wish someone could find that game in Anaheim from the 2011 season ( I think) where Beltre could be heard in the dug out yelling oh **** oh **** while the rangers were hitting home runs.

DallasAg 94 said:

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I agree, but it will be interesting how those things are judged.

In '03, A-Rod was MVP for Texas @ SS. It later came out that he tested positive for PEDs and MLB didn't suspend him, nor announced it. They just let it go. There is no question he used PEDs.

In '04 he transitioned to 3B for the NYY and from '05-13 he got 2MVPs, 6 AS, 3 SS

In '05 Beltre moved from the NL (LAD) to the AL (Sea-Bos-Texas) .

East Coast bias? With LAD and Sea, Beltre was relatively obscure... In 12 seasons, he got MVP votes once (2nd), GG twice and SS once.

At 31, he joins Boston for 1 yr (then 8 with the Rangers) and suddenly an AS for 4 of the next 5 years. Getting MVP votes for 7 years. 3 SS, 3 GG.

One of my concerns with using that is for guys like Brooks Robinson (Baltimore) being more widely seen by media as opposed to Mathews who played mostly in Milwaukee.

ETA: I don't know if Beltre used PEDs.. instinct says he likely did to some level. I don't think he ever tested positive.

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Man there's no way I would have thought that Beltre was in Arlington for 8 seasons.

MrCoachEricTaylor said:

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DallasAg 94 said:

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I don't know if Beltre used PEDs.. instinct says he likely did to some level.

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Sounds like something a Stro would say…

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They were saying it on the Billy Wagner thread. I let it go because there's no reason to get in their feels over it.

I was just kidding Dallas lol I get what you're saying and that's 100% your prerogative. But I typically give everyone the benefit of the doubt without any evidence or proof, but that's just me.

Fuzzy Dunlop said:

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DallasAg 94 said:

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Or maybe someone who has been outspoken against PED use.

PED use and speculation is now part of the equation for Cooperstown. It has to be. Especially for that era.

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It is certainly possible but without verifiable proof I don't even like to make the claims. Why tarnish someone's reputation that didn't test positive, as far as we know. And we would likely know because Beltre wasn't a superstar during the PED era.

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That's my mentality about it, just couldn't put it as eloquently

DallasAg 94 said:

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Ok... I was like... "yeah, I waited 24 years of posting on here for this moment to reveal I'm an Astros fan."


Like many on here, growing up all I wanted to do was play MLB. Despite being 5'2", I made the HS Varsity team as a Freshman in the early '80s. I was a "late bloomer" and I had the opportunity to take steroids in HS under a doctors care to get my puberty started. I chose not to. And that was essentially the end of competitive sports for me. I got tired of getting trucked by 6'2/240 guys who were juiced up and could tell you everything about anabolic roids, but "I never used them, though," as veins were bulging out of their necks.

I don't fault guys from the Dominican... I get it. The reward is too enticing.

But for every player that got paid millions to play MLB while taking steroids... there is a guy who didn't get to play... who made the decision to not juice. I was never that good nor that dedicated, but the decision to juice would have been enticing "to get over the hump" to make it.

And THAT is why I'm so outspoken. Not because it would have made a difference in my life to play MLB... but that it creates the necessity in order to keep up with the others.

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Dang, well I commend you for making that choice!

I forgot about A-Rod. He's probably a top three 3rd baseman of all time, maybe even the best, but the stink on his career is so bad I think you have to put him in his own category.

I still think Mike Schmidt is the GOAT at the hot corner. Doing a deeper dive on his career numbers is pretty eye opening, especially in the second half of his career. I will also continue to advocate for Nolan Arenado for probably top three all time. If he can have another three years at his career average or above, he's a lock first ballot guy. If he has five years at his current output, then he might be able to give Mike Schmidt a run for his money.

Doing a deeper dive on Beltre, his lack of accolades early in his career is a little surprising, but he was going up against that Bonds guy in 2004. I was also surprised to see his career really take off after that 2010 with Boston. His HOF career really happened with the Rangers.

Top 10 SS prospects were released today, and I was a little surprised that Wolcott wasn't on it at all. The reason I would guess is because of how incredibly young he still is.

I didn't read their intro but all these lists have been "Top 10 for 2024". The SS guys all have ETAs of 2024 of 2025. I fully expect Walcott to be ahead of some these guys when the actual top 100 comes out.

I can't be the only one that doesn't really care if professional athletes use steroids.I'd rather they didn't, but that's not reality. They will keep finding ways around every rule, and steroids is just one of the rules.
Especially when it comes to the Hall of Fame, considering there is no way to be sure we have 'caught' every player that did.
There are likely people in the Hall who HAVE used already

Agree here. He feels like a top 75 at minimum, but probably a top 50 guy with even higher upside.

I was hoping he'd be T10, but I thought he was on the bubble... He'll be T10 next update, I suspect.

CowtownAg06 said:

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I didn't read their intro but all these lists have been "Top 10 for 2024". The SS guys all have ETAs of 2024 of 2025. I fully expect Walcott to be ahead of some these guys when the actual top 100 comes out.

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Top 100 will be posted Friday and will be a compilation of the player rankings being released... so, he'll likely be T100, but after the T10 SSs. That will tell you if he is 11th, or 12th.

There are 3 T10 SSs that are on MLB rosters already, but like Evan Carter, are still designated as "prospects" and may or may not be on the Active Roster.

Doing a little house cleaning.

Tksymm7 said:

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Agree here. He feels like a top 75 at minimum, but probably a top 50 guy with even higher upside.

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He was the 16th SS listed (counting SS/3B and SS/2B) and 62nd overall to finish 2023. 22 players ahead of him are on their teams 40. I think around 50 is probably a good expectation.

I believe early March MLB will release their T30 per team and that will likely be based on STs and include another update with positions.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/39374576/sources-brewers-finalizing-deal-free-agent-rhys-hoskins

Rhys Hoskins to Milwaukee - 2 years, $34 MM.

I'm on the record as wanting to trade Lowe and get this guy. Would have been a huge offensive upgrade.

I"m not opposed to trading Lowe ($8.8M in '24) but then signing Rhys ($17M), IMO, wouldn't be my move.

Lowe is an Arb in '24 and has 2 more Arb years.

Rhys would be a ungrade on paper Offensively, but we'll see how they look in 2024. I think Lowe bounces back. Hopefully he fixed that hole in his swing at the high fastball.

I like Rhys too, but I think overrate him. Missed all of last year so comparing 2021-2022, he and Lowe had identical 126 OPS+. Assuming Hoskins goes back to what he was pre injury, he's more power, Lowe is better OBP/AVG few Ks. Lowe has turned himself into a better defender as well.

I would have been fine signing Hoskins to DH, but that's not where our limited dollars are going. Now let's see those limited dollars go.

This would have likely been more as DH, but yeah probably a luxury we can't afford. It's looking like Duran is our internal option to be our DH and backup infielder.

fc2112 said:

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This would have likely been more as DH, but yeah probably a luxury we can't afford. It's looking like Duran is our internal option to be our DH and backup infielder.

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Agreed. Plus if Langford sticks we will have four OF's for three spots, so that provides a DH option as well.

Any money we would have given Hopkins needs to go to the efforts to get Montgomery signed. Speaking of which, it would sure be nice to get some closure on the Bally/DSG situation. I think the recent updates said the remaining five teams (one of which is the Rangers) should know their outcome by the beginning of February? If I am remembering correctly. I have a feeling that may be part of the holdup in getting Montgomery signed (hopefully). At some point he may sign elsewhere, but it does seem like some of the team interested in him moved about to sign other options.