Harry Dunne said:

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The Porkchop Express said:

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If steroids went from having you hit 4 homers in 4 months to 14 homers in 2 months, I feel like 80% of the league would be taking them.

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Yeah, that's basically how it works.

You also just summed up baseball in the 90s and 2000s.

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I agree 100%, but that's clearly not happening now.

I also don't think 80% of the league is taking them.

But with no testing for 4 months earlier this year I guarantee that far more than the usual one-off Laureano types juiced it up this offseason.

But I'm sure there are Astros and Rangers that juiced too. That's the difference between me and a Yankees fan.

So the ball boy who brings balls out to the ump, probably 14 yrs old, is in on the conspiracy that he must take balls, from a specific box, that are only distributed to the games that J and P are playing, at the time that they are coming to the plate...?

Do you know that the home team supplies the balls...

So they would have to be in on your theory of allowing those two to possibly hit home runs against them in their own ballpark...

wow...

AustinAg2K said:

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To me, cheating (and scandals in general) are just part of baseball. It's part of what makes it a great game. The players aren't perfect, more so than any other sport. The Black Sox, Pete Rose, The Astros, all just part of the game. Bobby Thompson's, "Shot heard 'round the world," was made possible because the Giants had a sign stealing system. The 1980's Mets were all hopped up on cocaine. John McGraw was rumored to have paid off umps back in the early 1900s. Gaylord Perry made the Hall of Fame almost entirely because of cheating. If you want all your players clean, baseball isn't the sport for you.

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Lol, so some random dude named Jared gets to decide the record is 73, but what Roger Maris Jr says doesn't matter.

I'm glad that Maris Jr had the courage to actually say what he did. The easy answer is just to say "oh everyone was cheating so what can we do."

Maris' family has gone out of their way to be gracious to anyone that has broken their dad's record, but at this point 20 years after the McGwire and Bonds nonsense, you can tell the family is fed up with the cowards who won't just do the right thing. No reason that Maris Jr should feel like he had to speak for all of baseball, the commissioner needed to address this one way or another in the past.

My position is clear, 73 is an asinine number put up by a man who went way beyond disrespecting the game. Baseball might be full of cheating throughout it's history, but even the cheaters themselves usually try and respect the game to some extent. Bonds just threw it all out the window to put up numbers for himself. If you remember, Bonds was even a dick about the chase when he was chasing these numbers. I used to work as a sports reporter and actually interviewed Bonds once (briefly as part of a group interview in Houston) and he was unlike any other I'd interviewed. Most ball players are down to earth, and know they are part of the game, Bonds believed he was on another level. He would give one word answers, sometimes he just stared at the reporters he didn't like. He was above even acknowledging that fans would want to know what he was thinking.

Just to make sure your point is clear. If Aaron Judge was to decide next year to use some new undetectable PED and hit 80 home runs, and get away with it until he's found out the following year, you are ok with that record standing?

This isn't just history and old stats, it's about setting a precedent for the future as well.

Baseball is the only game where stats like single season records have meaning to the fans. 73 is an embarrassment to the game because of how it was achieved.

AggieEP said:

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Just to make sure your point is clear. If Aaron Judge was to decide next year to use some new undetectable PED and hit 80 home runs, and get away with it until he's found out the following year, you are ok with that record standing?

This isn't just history and old stats, it's about setting a precedent for the future as well.

Baseball is the only game where stats like single season records have meaning to the fans. 73 is an embarrassment to the game because of how it was achieved.

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Just to make sure your point is clear. If Aaron Judge was to decide next year to use some new undetectable PED and hit 80 home runs, and get away with it until he's found out the following year, you are ok with that record standing?

Yes. Taking PEDs doesn't magically make you hit home runs. If you shoved 20 PEDs down Martin Maldonado's throat every day, he wouldn't suddenly hit 60 home runs. And more importantly, Barry Bonds never tested positive for steroids as conducted by MLB and never got found guilty of anything except obstruction of justice. So if you want to convict him of the court of "I'm sure he did steroids," then you're going to need to go ahead and gut the all-time record books and award counts for a really, really long time. Goodbye to all of McGwire and Sosa's MVPs, goodbye to Clemens' Cy Youngs, goodbye to Bagwell's MVP, cuz he's suspcious AF. Caminiti in 96, MVP gone. All the pitchers who cheated, out of the HoF. Mike Scott's no-hitter, off the books because he was scuffing the ball, and that was cheating too.

Baseball is the only game where stats like single season records have meaning to the fans.
NFL football
College football
High school football
Tennis
Golf
Car Racing

I agree with all of this except for one thing:

Steroids DO magically make you hit home runs. Far more than you did before, at least. Maldonado has averaged more HR per 162 games than Luis Gonzalez did the first eight years from his career. He was a 10-15 HR per year guy.

He starts juicing & few years later hits 57. Those following 8 years, into his late 30s when he should be declining his home runs per game more than double! He's probably the most dramatic example, but there are plenty of others that follow the same pattern.

I think if Maldy could Roid out righteously late 90s style he could hit 40+ home runs per season.

From the worst hitter on his team to certainly an all-star and maybe an MVP candidate. As a DH maybe even 60! Why not? He's got more pre-roid power than Gonzalez or Brady Anderson did?

Like I said, I agree everything else you have written but the "steroids don't make you hit homers" argument is one of the worst ones out there. They wouldn't make you and I hit dingers because we still wouldn't be hitting the ball at all, but someone that's already a major league caliber hitter is going to possibly double their HR production.

Cool

Gwynn also hit 88 homers in the 90s, Judge has 100 in the last two years alone...

I loved Tony Gwynn… but peak Aaron Judge > peak Tony Gwynn.

I would be interested in seeing home run leaders in a season above standard deviation for the season, and something like "the average of the remaining top 10 home run leaders in a season compared to the leader". Judge seems like he's way out in front of the rest of the league, whereas many of the steroid era seasons seemed to have tons of guys with huge totals (although I haven't looked it up to confirm).

Harry Dunne said:

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More valuable to any team.

What's your justification? Take out the fact that he's your childhood hero or whatever and look at the numbers. Gwynn was a wizard with the bat, but didn't hit for power. Judge creates a lot more offense for any team.

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My childhood hero was Jose Cruz

Tony Gwynn was a 15-time all-star with 8 batting titles, 7 silver sluggers, and 5 gold gloves. He's the second best hitter in the last 80 years behind Ted Williams.

Aaron Judge has had one all-time seasons and one really great season ('17). Let him put up similar numbers for another dozen years and I'll be happy to put him on the list beside Gywnn as an all-time great.

Fair enough

Begrudgingly 73. But I think it's a cheap-ass record and unfortunately will stand for a long, long time. At the same time, I'll acknowledge this stained record is still the official record.

The Porkchop Express said:

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AggieEP said:

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Just to make sure your point is clear. If Aaron Judge was to decide next year to use some new undetectable PED and hit 80 home runs, and get away with it until he's found out the following year, you are ok with that record standing?

This isn't just history and old stats, it's about setting a precedent for the future as well.

Baseball is the only game where stats like single season records have meaning to the fans. 73 is an embarrassment to the game because of how it was achieved.

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Just to make sure your point is clear. If Aaron Judge was to decide next year to use some new undetectable PED and hit 80 home runs, and get away with it until he's found out the following year, you are ok with that record standing?

Yes. Taking PEDs doesn't magically make you hit home runs. If you shoved 20 PEDs down Martin Maldonado's throat every day, he wouldn't suddenly hit 60 home runs. And more importantly, Barry Bonds never tested positive for steroids as conducted by MLB and never got found guilty of anything except obstruction of justice. So if you want to convict him of the court of "I'm sure he did steroids," then you're going to need to go ahead and gut the all-time record books and award counts for a really, really long time. Goodbye to all of McGwire and Sosa's MVPs, goodbye to Clemens' Cy Youngs, goodbye to Bagwell's MVP, cuz he's suspcious AF. Caminiti in 96, MVP gone. All the pitchers who cheated, out of the HoF. Mike Scott's no-hitter, off the books because he was scuffing the ball, and that was cheating too.

Baseball is the only game where stats like single season records have meaning to the fans.
NFL football
College football
High school football
Tennis
Golf
Car Racing

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Lol, you must not understand what I mean by single season records mattering. In baseball 60 meant a ton, until 61 happened and that became the new standard. It was a number to strive for and one that could captivate the attention of millions of people.

Those other sports you listed do not have a stat like single season home run records that tv stations would take you to live coverage everytime a player approached the record. Part of that is the nature of baseball compared to those other sports, but that's part of why baseball is special. It's different, and stats matter in different way than they do in other sports.

I understand 100% what you're saying. baseball is my favorite sport. But I would counter that fans of the sports I listed are very passionate about single-season records, especially tennis and golf. Tennis players who have won a single-season Grand Slam are considered elite among the elite, that's a single-season record. Same with golf - guys who win more than one Major in a year are considered God-like.

The single-season rushing record in the NFL is huge. As is the TD passes record. But those sports aren't getting cut away to because they are not as numerous as baseball games; they are already on TV anyway.

Bonds was using steriods. Maris was using greenies. Ruth didn't play against the black man. The real record is Mays with 52 in 1965 or Griffey with 56 in 97 and 98.

This is a joke - 73 is the record.