and then contrast that with Jimmy Rollins --- it's his first year on the ballot.

he was a great shortstop in his 20's. Had a phenomenal 5-year stretch from 2004 to 2008 when he was one of the best players in the game and won the 2007 NL MVP.

but once he turned 30...and then 31...the decline started. Which is normal...which is natural. And he wasn't the same player the last 5 or 6 years of his career.

and that will probably keep him out of the Hall of Fame

Roiders shouldn't be in the hall. If you take roids away Bonds is still a great hitter, but not the best in MLB history. Clemens would still be a HOF without roids. If anyone has the right to be upset about not being selected, it's Schilling.

I also look at it from the perspective of the guys that were prospects that did it without cheating. Some made it and some didn't. How many jobs o er the course of their PED careers was some blocked because of these guys, not just Bonds and Clemens but others too? Think about the 6th OF for the Orioles that was close to being called up and then Brady Anderson hits 50 bombs one year. Did that 6th OF make it? Was it two years down the road. Did the 7th OF start juicing and he got passed up and never made a big league roster? I think for the most part the PED users cheated the other players more than they cheated the fans and the league.

Fuzzy Dunlop said:

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I also look at it from the perspective of the guys that were prospects that did it without cheating. Some made it and some didn't. How many jobs o er the course of their PED careers was some blocked because of these guys, not just Bonds and Clemens but others too? Think about the 6th OF for the Orioles that was close to being called up and then Brady Anderson hits 50 bombs one year. Did that 6th OF make it? Was it two years down the road. Did the 7th OF start juicing and he got passed up and never made a big league roster? I think for the most part the PED users cheated the other players more than they cheated the fans and the league.

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Didn't an ex-pitcher sue the Astros using similar logic?

Everyone is probably on something, but blatant cheaters shouldn't be allowed in. That includes Beltran and eventually Altuve, and I'm an Astros fan. Rose, Bonds, Clemens, etc. Schilling got robbed because of his politics and because journalists are sissies, and everyone is talking about Bonds and Clemens.

It doesn't help that Bonds/Roidger are scumbag humans. If Bonds had the personality of Ortiz and Clemens had the personality of Rivera they're both in.

CampingAg said:

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It doesn't help that Bonds/Roidger are scumbag humans. If Bonds had the personality of Ortiz and Clemens had the personality of Rivera they're both in.

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I'm not old enough to have paid attention during the early bonds years, but is scumbag really a fair personification of him? From what I read he was selfish and self absorbed for sure but it seems like the media built him into something more extreme and he didn't care enough to change the narrative. His dad's established personality helped shape that early narrative too.

Here's a fun read on him from 1993 I found:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1993/06/06/barry-bonds-has-an-abrasive-personality-a-penchant-for-conflict-is-compared-to-willie-mays-and-is-the-best-player-in-baseball/35511418-acd1-4e6b-9614-337b1d21c478/

5 years before any association with Balco and he was being called the best player in baseball and compared to Willie mays. Writer even said "it's not like he can keep this pace for another 10 years though to be Mays"

Edit to add:
Not gonna bother defending Clemens lol

Rose didn't cheat. What he did violated a no gambling sign posted in every clubhouse in baseball. Sorry, but no way should Pete get in - his choice.

MAROON said:

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David Ortiz’s career OBP: .380.

Barry Bonds’ career OBP if you turned all 762 of his home runs into outs: .384.

— Kendall Baker (@kendallbaker) January 25, 2022

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Reminds me of one of my all time favorite facts:

Turn all of Ted Williams' 2B and HR into outs and he still has a higher career OBP than Henry Aaron

The change from being ballot eligible for 10 years when it used to be 15 makes it very difficult. If they had another 5 years I think they eventually make it in (Bonds, Clemens, Schilling). The new voters that are being added are voting for them…very similar to how most on here state they're coming around. The issue is the OLD ASS voters that have had their minds made up.

59 new voters added and more than 85% voted for both Bonds and Clemens. They'd eventually make it in a few more years but that 15 to 10 year change was made in order to keep them out.

Now the only way to get in is by special committee. The same committee that voted to get Selig in and he had more to do with the widespread use than anyone.

agproducer said:

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It is disgusting that the HoF does not include the HRs leader, the Cy Young leader and the all-time hits leader.

I love baseball, but the holier-than-thou baseball writers are turning the Hall into a joke.

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To me it is just an embodiment of what it takes to be the greatest. The personality traits to make oneself great are also the kind of traits that can push someone to do unscrupulous things to get there. Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens and Pete Rose are all grade A asshats and giant jerks. While I acknowledge your sentiment that they should be in based on their baseball achievements, it's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of the Greatest.

For good reasons each of the three that you mentioned, are infamous and not famous. Each of the three that you mentioned did it to themselves as well. And, in each case, had they not been blinded by their own hubris, they could have humbly admitted wrongdoing and been granted entrance to the HoF.

Instead, they will stubbornly sit in the corner and rightfully be forced to learn a hard lesson in humility.

As a man with children, Bonds, Clemens and Rose provide great examples of the need to balance honesty, humility and character development along with the pursuit of greatness.

(edit to add, Pete Rose was not a cheater, but he was a liar and the fact that he gambled on his own team as a manager does compromise the integrity of the game)

I have this debate all the time, but does it still compromise the integrity of the game if he bet on his team to win like he claims?

And to logically back his claim, what bookie would take a bet from him against his team? It would be an automatic loss for the bookmaker. This isn't a situation like the Black Sox where a third party bet on the game and paid the players to throw it.

Furthermore, why can't we separate Pete rose the HOF player from Pete Rose of the short lived managerial career with a gambling problem. Include his whole story on the plaque, but the player version of him deserved in.

Chrundle the Great said:

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I have this debate all the time, but does it still compromise the integrity of the game if he bet on his team to win like he claims?

And to logically back his claim, what bookie would take a bet from him against his team? It would be an automatic loss for the bookmaker. This isn't a situation like the Black Sox where a third party bet on the game and paid the players to throw it.

Furthermore, why can't we separate Pete rose the HOF player from Pete Rose of the short lived managerial career with a gambling problem. Include his whole story on the plaque, but the player version of him deserved in.

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Yes, it compromises the integrity of the game because, even though he didn't bet on the games, it's possible that he doesn't manage the game the same way. Maybe he decides to not use a reliever tonight, because he's planning on saving him for tomorrow because he's got a bet on tomorrow's game. Or perhaps he throws games (or gives up additional runs) in games he has not bet on to change the odds for later games that he does plan on betting on. Betting on any baseball, even ones your not involved in, leads to a lot of questions about how fair you are playing.

agproducer said:

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I agree in a sense with what you are saying, but the Hall is rife with cheaters. Papi tested positive for PEDs. Mike Schmidt, who is awesome btw, admitted he used greenies before games. Gaylord Perry and his grease balls. They are all in. Your can't allow in some"cheaters," but then keep others it for cheating.

Again, holier-than-thou writers.

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I'm not arguing that others aren't cheaters, as another poster pointed out, there are likely 10 to 15 steroid users that have made it in the last 10 years.

The difference with Bonds and Clemens is their infamy resulting from completely disrespecting the game. They not only cheated, but they took it to extreme lengths. Each of them was still putting out peak performance at 40+ years old while denying anything was going on.

They never took it quite to Lance Armstrong levels of trying to ruin people, but they were in the same ballpark personality wise with the smugness of their character.

Basically, I don't want them out because they are cheaters, you are correct lots of cheaters in the hall. I want them out because they are and should be a cautionary tale for what happens when you blatantly disrespect the game. I understand that definition is not acceptable to some, but for me, someone who played baseball for 14 years of my life, there is a respect for the game that remains important to the heart of the game. For the hall to enshrine these two in particular would send the wrong message.

AggieEP said:

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agproducer said:

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I agree in a sense with what you are saying, but the Hall is rife with cheaters. Papi tested positive for PEDs. Mike Schmidt, who is awesome btw, admitted he used greenies before games. Gaylord Perry and his grease balls. They are all in. Your can't allow in some"cheaters," but then keep others it for cheating.

Again, holier-than-thou writers.

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I'm not arguing that others aren't cheaters, as another poster pointed out, there are likely 10 to 15 steroid users that have made it in the last 10 years.

The difference with Bonds and Clemens is their infamy resulting from completely disrespecting the game. They not only cheated, but they took it to extreme lengths. Each of them was still putting out peak performance at 40+ years old while denying anything was going on.

They never took it quite to Lance Armstrong levels of trying to ruin people, but they were in the same ballpark personality wise with the smugness of their character.

Basically, I don't want them out because they are cheaters, you are correct lots of cheaters in the hall. I want them out because they are and should be a cautionary tale for what happens when you blatantly disrespect the game. I understand that definition is not acceptable to some, but for me, someone who played baseball for 14 years of my life, there is a respect for the game that remains important to the heart of the game. For the hall to enshrine these two in particular would send the wrong message.

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Lol "extreme lengths" yeah ok then

htownag10 said:

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AggieEP said:

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agproducer said:

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I agree in a sense with what you are saying, but the Hall is rife with cheaters. Papi tested positive for PEDs. Mike Schmidt, who is awesome btw, admitted he used greenies before games. Gaylord Perry and his grease balls. They are all in. Your can't allow in some"cheaters," but then keep others it for cheating.

Again, holier-than-thou writers.

---

I'm not arguing that others aren't cheaters, as another poster pointed out, there are likely 10 to 15 steroid users that have made it in the last 10 years.

The difference with Bonds and Clemens is their infamy resulting from completely disrespecting the game. They not only cheated, but they took it to extreme lengths. Each of them was still putting out peak performance at 40+ years old while denying anything was going on.

They never took it quite to Lance Armstrong levels of trying to ruin people, but they were in the same ballpark personality wise with the smugness of their character.

Basically, I don't want them out because they are cheaters, you are correct lots of cheaters in the hall. I want them out because they are and should be a cautionary tale for what happens when you blatantly disrespect the game. I understand that definition is not acceptable to some, but for me, someone who played baseball for 14 years of my life, there is a respect for the game that remains important to the heart of the game. For the hall to enshrine these two in particular would send the wrong message.

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Lol "extreme lengths" yeah ok then

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You don't think there is a scale of difference with cheating?

For me, using recovery drugs and attention enhancing drugs is cheating, but not cheating to the same level of turning yourself into a super human. I think people forget what Bonds did to baseball. He became so good at 39 years old, that he broke the game. He had a .609 OBP and a 1.422 OPS. He walked 232 times, over 100 of those intentional and he still somehow drove in 90 runs. It's the greatest single offensive season in baseball history by OPS and he did it at 39.

To me it's the difference between having a friend that tells you exactly what to study for a test, and having a friend who just gives you the test. They are both cheating, but there is a scale of how unscrupulous the action is. Bonds used a laboratory to systematically turn himself into the greatest baseball player of all time. That's a lot different to me than guys taking stuff to stay on the field, even if that stuff is banned or illegal.

Quote:

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Quote:
I think people forget what Bonds did to baseball

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Made it more popular?

The horror!!


The attempt to make "steroids to go from good to great" some how less bad than "steroids to go from great to all-timer" is quite comical though

AggieEP said:

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To me it's the difference between having a friend that tells you exactly what to study for a test, and having a friend who just gives you the test. They are both cheating, but there is a scale of how unscrupulous the action is. Bonds used a laboratory to systematically turn himself into the greatest baseball player of all time. That's a lot different to me than guys taking stuff to stay on the field, even if that stuff is banned or illegal.

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To me, it's more like telling your friend what to study for on a test vs telling Einstein what to study for. Your friend it going to study, and do better. Maybe he'll go from a D to a C, but he's still going to struggle because he's kind of an idiot. Einstein is going to go from a high A to a perfect score. That's essentially what Bonds and Clemens did. They went from already HOF players, to talks of being the greatest to ever play the game.

I don't really think it's much different, though. Both the guy struggling to from AAA to the majors and Barry were cheating. Everyone was cheating. If Ken Griffey Jr is to be believed, he said for years Bonds was clean while everyone else around him was juicing. It finally got to a point, though, where Bonds had a 40/40 year (one of only two in the history of baseball at the time) and he didn't finish top 5 in the MVP voting. It was all roided up nobodies. At that point, Bonds said, "F' it. I'm better than them and they're getting all the glory."

Some people also fail to realize the mental side of the game. Paul Goldschmidt for example had all the tools from high school. In his Interview a few years ago he said it's the mental aspect of the game that makes or breaks you in the minors.

Don't worry someone will say steroids help your mental capacity too just to show how self righteous they are.

I'm pretty sure that if you wanted to make it past AA, you were on PEDs.

Well at least some good news we can all agree on.

https://nypost.com/2022/02/04/campaign-against-retired-mlb-ump-joe-west-in-hall-of-fame-begins/

W said:

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a bit of revisionist history on this thread...

steroids & HGH helped hitters tremendously...that's why many of them were using them.

players were by & large able to avoid the natural drop-off that happens to a hitter in their 30's.

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just one example of hundreds...

there was a player in 1996 at age 27...that could only hit 12 home runs playing a full season in a midwest hitter's paradise.

5 years later in 2001...at age 32...he's banging out 37 home runs at a west coast pitcher's park.

his OPS increased by a stunning 320 points

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Assume you are talking about Brett Boone, was Riverfront Park a Hitter's paradise?

Heard an interesting stat yesterday on MLB Network. Let me see if I phrase it correctly.

Only three players in the 90s were in the top ten in RBIs, Home Runs, and Base Hits for the decade. Only one of them is in the HOF. Can you name them without Google or Baseball Reference?

I would have never gotten this correct. Two of them maybe but not the third.