***Official Houston Astros 2021 Season Thread***

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Mathguy64
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7:55a, 11/3/21
AG
Meh. This wasn't just Correa. The entire team underperformed. Every batter save Machete hit under their season norms. We had 3 positions that completely disappeared. LF/DH in Yordan, 3B in Bregman and CF with whoever. We had 3 positions that were well under in 2B, 1B and RF. Hitting wise is was a small sample of what this team looked like much of the season - either white hot or completely frozen. And realistically every starter except Greinke was absolutely horrid. If the arm barn didn't play lights out for 5 games this would have been over in 4.

Don't blame Carlos. Yes he had a bad series. But he had lots and lots of company.
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Harry Dunne
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7:55a, 11/3/21
I'm not a fan of Dusty as a tactician, but he's not the reason we lost the World Series. But the fact is he got us there and I don't think we were the best team in the American League, so he exceeded expectations.

We lost the World Series because we got nearly nothing out of our starting pitching and our bats went cold. we do need more starting pitching, but that's a Click issue. It's easy to point the blame at the hitting coach, but that same hitting coach oversaw leading the league in runs scored. Our approach in the World Series was not good, but you also have to give credit to the Braves pitching. Last night there were a lot of pitches in the heart of the zone that we just didn't capitalize on. That's not on the hitting coach.
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Harry Dunne
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8:04a, 11/3/21
Regarding starting pitching:

I think it would be smart to limit Lance's load. I'm not sure what the right approach is, but I think it's obvious at this point he's not going to be a workhorse and you need him healthy for the playoffs.

Framber, Urquidy and Luis hopefully will continue to develop into aces and if healthy, there's 3 more spots locked down.

Javier has ace stuff and I think he should be given an opportunity to develop into a starter. He may not have the endurance for it, but arms like that are few and far between and I think it's smart to see if it can happen.

Odorizzi as long as we've got him, as shown flashes of being what he used to be and could be a pleasant surprise. He's not someone I would count on to lock down a spot but he's also someone that should not be counted out.

So basically if everything goes well we might have our rotation in house already. But there will surely be injuries and things won't break like we want them to and I'd feel a lot better bringing in a proven stud starter and at least one reclamation project like a Miley or Odorizzi on the cheap with a good upside.
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1876er
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In reply to 03_Aggie • 8:10a, 11/3/21
AG
03_Aggie said:
Nino Brown said:
AggiEE said:
Farmer1906 said:
Welcome back, Dusty.



****


Would be totally fine with it honestly. He deserves another shot and it would be a shame if he doesn't get a ring. Outside of Game 5 (which we won, but arguably hurt us for G6), his managing of this team was absolutely great. Had we won the World Series he would have been my "MVP".

He toys a lot in the regular season, which I'm ok with as long as we make it to the playoffs


You guys are nuts if you think Dusty doesn't deserve another two years after walking into the fire.

This team, with healthy pitching and a few additions, is still a playoff and World Series contender. With or without Carlos Correa, we're about to have a ****tone of money come off the books.

I love Carlos, but I truly believe his true colors and future showed up right before your eyes last night.


For some reason Dusty just gives me D Antoni vibes. Will be competitive, make runs, but can't ever win it all.
The Astros are lucky to have Dusty, and the Rockets were luck the have D'antoni. Maybe neither will ever win a championship, but they are definitely both some of the best at what they do.
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Ag_07
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In reply to Harry Dunne • 8:11a, 11/3/21
AG
I think we have to find that one workhorse ace JV type pitcher.

Lance has the stuff and the moxie but he just can't give us the length and dependability we need.

Is that guy available in FA? Does Thor fit that mold coming of TJ? I don't know but for me that's what we need.

A dependable workhorse type ace to match with LMJ for a 1a and 1b punch at the top of the rotation.
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redline248
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8:13a, 11/3/21
AG
If Dusty "deserves" to stay then the fans "deserve" Carlos being signed.
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Bobcat-Ag
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In reply to Harry Dunne • 8:14a, 11/3/21
I like the idea of a reclamation project, but who is going to drive that project? That sounds a lot like what Strom has done over his career. Can we count on that happening with whomever replaces him?

Strom has played a huge part in the team success over the years and his loss will be felt. I hope that we feel the same respect for the new guy.
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Harry Dunne
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In reply to redline248 • 8:16a, 11/3/21
redline248 said:
If Dusty "deserves" to stay then the fans "deserve" Carlos being signed.
well if Carlos is willing to iron out a one or two year contract like Dusty is about two then it'd be a piece of cake.
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Moe Jzyslak
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In reply to Ag_07 • 8:17a, 11/3/21
AG
There's no one with that kind of length coming onto the market right now. The only one that could come close is Robbie Ray, which I wouldn't hate. Going into his age 30 season, led MLB in strikeouts and led the AL in IP, ERA, ERA+, and WHIP. Also the all time leader for SO/9.

He's going to be expecting a bigger payday after winning the CY this year. Making $8M this year, probably be able to push close to $20M. But if Carlos is 100% gone and the front office knows that, you make a push for Ray as that 1a/1b type starter, maybe look into someone like Syndergaard for backend of the rotation if you can get him on a really team friendly deal, and go for Story at SS.
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Harry Dunne
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In reply to Bobcat-Ag • 8:19a, 11/3/21
Bobcat-Ag said:
I like the idea of a reclamation project, but who is going to drive that project? That sounds a lot like what Strom has done over his career. Can we count on that happening with whomever replaces him?

Strom has played a huge part in the team success over the years and his loss will be felt. I hope that we feel the same respect for the new guy.
Strom is the best, but he's not the only good pitching coach out there. he's also not the only guy that can identify pitchers with high upside. He's got proteges like that guy we saw ad nauseam in the commercial all year… and there are surely proven guys who would love to work with Dusty and with this pitching staff.

We've lost a lot of huge pieces and we keep on ticking - will be the same with Strom.
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Lonestar_Ag09
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8:23a, 11/3/21
AG
Someone needs to start the offseason thread and soon....before some jack wagon that isn't involved in the thread does it. Kind of like the guy I've never heard of who tried to close this thread already.

I want to get my off season takes noted that I posted last night as freeman caught the ball....sadly one already seems wrong
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Harry Dunne
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In reply to Moe Jzyslak • 8:24a, 11/3/21
There's hardly anyone with that kind of length at all anymore. 180 IP is a workhorse nowadays.

I think only four guys threw 200 innings this season and only ten 180+!
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Ag_07
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In reply to Harry Dunne • 8:24a, 11/3/21
AG
Plus I feel like Click and his TB roots/connections will aid in helping us find a Strom replacement that fits with the organizations overall pitching philosophy.
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Frok
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In reply to maca1028 • 8:24a, 11/3/21
AG
maca1028 said:



That doesn't sound promising.
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AustinCountyAg
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In reply to Harry Dunne • 8:27a, 11/3/21
Harry Dunne said:
I'm not a fan of Dusty as a tactician, but he's not the reason we lost the World Series. But the fact is he got us there and I don't think we were the best team in the American League, so he exceeded expectations.

We lost the World Series because we got nearly nothing out of our starting pitching and our bats went cold. we do need more starting pitching, but that's a Click issue. It's easy to point the blame at the hitting coach, but that same hitting coach oversaw leading the league in runs scored. Our approach in the World Series was not good, but you also have to give credit to the Braves pitching. Last night there were a lot of pitches in the heart of the zone that we just didn't capitalize on. That's not on the hitting coach.
finally, a common sense post
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AustinCountyAg
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In reply to redline248 • 8:28a, 11/3/21
redline248 said:
If Dusty "deserves" to stay then the fans "deserve" Carlos being signed.
meh
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Teddy Perkins
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In reply to baseballaficionado • 8:30a, 11/3/21
AG
baseballaficionado said:
baseballaficionado said:
Teddy Perkins cost us the games, with his stupid voodoo finger ***** Every post brought in evil and turned dark for us. Kinda of kidding, but not really.

Edit -- Had to be his girl or a hex, to keep posting that evil crap.

Voodoo fingers... GONE! Jesus laughing at this blasphemy. Thanks, Teddy.

Hold on..... That was so great, I'll post that evil ****, again.
Get some sleep homie.
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rak1693
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8:33a, 11/3/21
AG
I don't think any of our pitchers can be counted on to take over the #1 spot. LMJ is too injury prone and the other guys are your #3 - #5 guys. We're going to need that #1 guy. I'd like to go after Robbie Ray or Stroman. We already have one lefty in Framber but should we try for another in Robbie Ray?
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n_touch
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In reply to Frok • 8:34a, 11/3/21
Frok said:
maca1028 said:



That doesn't sound promising.
Anyone know if his wife was at the game or at home packing last night?

Its the same message all year. Remember he wanted to win the WS series this year so he could leave the fans with more or something along those lines.
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Farmer1906
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In reply to Harry Dunne • 8:36a, 11/3/21
AG
Harry Dunne said:
I'm not a fan of Dusty as a tactician, but he's not the reason we lost the World Series. But the fact is he got us there and I don't think we were the best team in the American League, so he exceeded expectations.

We lost the World Series because we got nearly nothing out of our starting pitching and our bats went cold. we do need more starting pitching, but that's a Click issue. It's easy to point the blame at the hitting coach, but that same hitting coach oversaw leading the league in runs scored. Our approach in the World Series was not good, but you also have to give credit to the Braves pitching. Last night there were a lot of pitches in the heart of the zone that we just didn't capitalize on. That's not on the hitting coach.
Is not costing us a WS enough to merit a contract extension? I have said it multiple times, he did a good job in the postseason. He was dealt a **** hand with his starters going out and sucking. The only major issue I have with anything was throwing Urquidy in game 5 so he wasn't the starter in 6. With the bats going quiet, it likely didn't matter. As a "hater" of Dusty, though I very much like him on the personal side, I can give credit where credit is due.

But when I see a 162 game sample size of his moves, line-up composition, stubbornness to go again the org at times, lack of showing he has his players back in a public way (not saying he does it, but he doesn't show it like AJ, Cora, and some others), etc. I think there is room for improvement. I also think losing Strom will hurt more than most think when it comes to helping Dusty with pitching decisions. If we lose Joe too, I could see a significant decline in managerial prowess. Like any good coach, you're only as good as your support staff.
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Farmer1906
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In reply to n_touch • 8:37a, 11/3/21
AG
n_touch said:
Frok said:
maca1028 said:



That doesn't sound promising.
Anyone know if his wife was at the game or at home packing last night?

Its the same message all year. Remember he wanted to win the WS series this year so he could leave the fans with more or something along those lines.
The message before that was he wanted to retire an Astro. The difference is we offered him about 150 M short of what he is going to get on the open market. He's a smart guy and knows it's extremely unlikely to bridge that gap.
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Ag12thman
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In reply to Frok • 8:38a, 11/3/21
AG
Frok said:
maca1028 said:



That doesn't sound promising.
I think we all pretty much know he's gone and that quote also sounds like he considers himself gone.
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Bad Poster
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In reply to maca1028 • 8:43a, 11/3/21
maca1028 said:



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Bobby Jimbo
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8:46a, 11/3/21
AG
Between Greinke, Verlander, and (probably) Correa, that will free up nearly $80 million. Anyone else excited to see what James Click can do with that?
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maca1028
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In reply to Ag12thman • 8:47a, 11/3/21
Ag12thman said:
Frok said:
maca1028 said:



That doesn't sound promising.
I think we all pretty much know he's gone and that quote also sounds like he considers himself gone.

I think he was gone all along. I'm not sure I believe the statement he made before the season about wanting to retire here. With what he's said since it leads me to believe that he said that to start the bidding war. Not that I blame him. I'll always appreciate what he did for the organization but if he moves on from the Astros, I'm moving on as a fan of his.
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Farmer1906
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In reply to Bobby Jimbo • 8:49a, 11/3/21
AG
Bobby Jimbo said:
Between Greinke, Verlander, and (probably) Correa, that will free up nearly $80 million. Anyone else excited to see what James Click can do with that?
Just because it frees it up doesn't mean Crane is going to let Click spend it all. I am not calling Crane cheap, but if the tax threshold is lowered and Crane/Click wants to keep some flexibility moving forward then maybe we only spend $30-40 M. It would be disappointing, but I don't think it is an unrealistic possibility.
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AustinCountyAg
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8:50a, 11/3/21
great season fellow astros fans. I have tried my best to steer clear of this thread the past week, simply because of many of the bandwagon nut job baseball fans who hop on and just dont understand the ups and down of the game. It gets tough to read. With that said...

Congrats to the Braves. They deserve it. Got timely hitting, timely pitching and simply were the better team in the series. Astros didn't get any of that. Frankly, after the LMJ injury the Stros' were damn lucky to even get to the WS, much less win. Losing a big piece of what little starting pitching they had was a huge blow.

So, here are a few things I'd like to address after reading the past few pages.

1. I will start with CC. Personally, I have enjoyed seeing him an Astro, but it is time for him to move on. It should be OBVIOUS to any baseball fan with knowledge, that he simply isn't worth the money he is wanting. For an Astros team lacking starting pitching that money can go a long way at addressing the team's biggest weakness. With the # of free agent SS's available, and Carlos' injury history it simply doesn't make sense to lock him down with the deal he is wanting.

2. Leadership, someone mentioned back Carlos was the leader and now we don't have one. BULL****. You have an MVP in Altuve who is the leader. Just because he isn't a big mouth rah rah guy doesn't discount his leadership abilities. He is the definition of leadership IMO. Was Biggio not a leader? GTFO with not calling Altuve the team leader. BUT, for arguments sake if you really want the big mouth type of leader you have that in Bregman and LMJ. that leads into my next point....

3. Bregman. He was being **** on in some of the posts back saying he can't hit without a trash can, bad hitting approach, he wont return to his former self, etc. That is crap too....Pretty obvious, his hamstring issues have lingered since his return and hampered is offense. It is fact that he is one of the most disciplined hitters in MLB and has a great eye. He will return to his former self and will be fine. No worries there....But here are my worries.

In no particular order, things Astros should be worried about.

1. Starting pitching. We need more, and we need another ace. It is clear that LMJ has the goods, but the team needs another pitcher so they have that 1, 2 punch at the top of the rotation.

2. Yuli...had a fantastic year at the plate, but struggled in the post season. He is old and only getting older. His decline is coming, and it is going to come fast when it does IMO.

3. Coaching....resign Dusty? new pitching coach. Both goes hand in hand. If you bring Dusty back you better get a pitching coach who will stand up to him and voice his opinions. I don't want Dusty having full say making pitching decisions in games that matter. Not opposed to having him return, but his assistants better not be yes men to him. Strom is great because he knew his stuff and Dusty listened to him and trusted him.


With all that said, the Stros are lined up to be able to compete next year and make another run. I can't wait. My kids are finally getting old enough and are starting to "get it". Nothing better than the family together cheering on the Astros to a win.
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Moe Jzyslak
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8:51a, 11/3/21
AG
The correct answer for the managerial search is to bring back either Bo Porter or Jimy Williams.
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Wabs
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In reply to Farmer1906 • 8:55a, 11/3/21
AG
Farmer1906 said:
Bobby Jimbo said:
Between Greinke, Verlander, and (probably) Correa, that will free up nearly $80 million. Anyone else excited to see what James Click can do with that?
Just because it frees it up doesn't mean Crane is going to let Click spend it all. I am not calling Crane cheap, but if the tax threshold is lowered and Crane/Click wants to keep some flexibility moving forward then maybe we only spend $30-40 M. It would be disappointing, but I don't think it is an unrealistic possibility.
You would hope that Crane knows that you have to invest money to make money. The Astros (and Crane) have made a lot of money with the recent success of the organization with the late playoff runs. I'm not necessarily saying that need to overpay Correa (which I think would be a bad long term solution), but I'd like to see him be willing to pay for some pieces - specifically a SP, lefty BP help, and a legit centerfielder.
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Teddy Perkins
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8:55a, 11/3/21
AG
On Correa, it's known that Correa wants a long term deal (10 years) and the Astros have said in the past that they don't do long term deals. But Crane also said that can change, which may just be fan lip service or it could have teeth. We'll see.

Here's where Correa's head is at.

Quote:
The two sides had talks about an extension last spring, with the Astros reportedly floating offers of six years/$120MM and five years/$125MM. Even at the time, however, Correa had a dim view of how serious the Astros were, saying "there were not really any negotiations," and that the Astros "made it clear to me they don't believe in long contracts, they don't believe in big contracts."

Houston owner Jim Crane said that he feels his team still has "a chance" to retain Correa, and that the Astros will "definitely be in the mix" with the shortstop's other suitors. The Astros haven't signed a contract longer than five years during Crane's tenure, and while the owner indicated that "things can change" on that front, Correa seems to have his eye on a much longer commitment.

"A lot of people don't believe in 10-year contracts and in long-term deals and all that. But when you look at most of the 10-year contracts they've been giving out, the long-term deals, they're players that are 31, 30, 32," the shortstop noted. "I'm going to be 27 on my first year. I'm young, I'm healthy, and I perform. So we'll see what happens."

While it remains to be seen just how high the bidding will get, Correa stressed that "I want to win. Money's great and everything, but I don't want to be miserable in the clubhouse, losing every day."
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/10/carlos-correa-discusses-free-agency.html
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Texaggie7nine
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8:56a, 11/3/21
Wanting it more is something that is just hard to do when you've been there so often. The only way for a team to continue winning the WS over the teams that want it more because they haven't had one in so long is to just have an insane amount of talent that can overcome the opponent wanting it more. Having your aces out for the season and series is just not going to cut it.

Hopefully our pitching can become dominate again like it was in 17 and our talent can overcome the teams that just want it more.
7nine
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Ag_07
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In reply to Teddy Perkins • 8:59a, 11/3/21
AG
That's one thing I hope he considers.

If he wants to continue winning his best option is staying here.

George Springer is a very rich man but he also watched every playoff game from his couch.
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Boiling Denim
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9:00a, 11/3/21
The NL was a class above the AL this year. Not sure we beat any other NL playoff team

You don't fall apart that quick after a scorcher like we had against the Sox if you weren't just completely outmatched. We should have gone into this series with Juan Soto levels of swag. Instead we almost got no-hit and got shutout at home.

I have huge reservations leaning on Framber and Javier moving forward. When they are off they are soul-crushing, game losing off and you can't really have that in the playoffs.

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3 Toed Pete
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In reply to bullard21k • 9:04a, 11/3/21
AG
bullard21k said:
Espada is going to walk if we don't offer him the job

Let's not forget in a short season if they didn't extend the playoffs dusty took a World Series caliber team and nearly missed the playoffs.

Threw a fit about straw and refused to play lineups to the point of just clearly being stubborn

No strom around to reign in some of his ridiculous pitching decisions.

He did well for most the playoffs but he still manages rosters like it's 1997. There a ton of managers that could get this loaded roster to the WS

Crane is still going to play the PC Card on this and it's going to backfire

You have a heavy analytical front office and GM, a roster built on analytics, scouting based off that yet a head coach who runs his club like he is still with the reds in the NL. Espada meets all the criteria you want and how you have assembled your roster…use him as such
Excellent post.

Remember when MLB was doing is due diligence to approve Crane buying the Astros and some group sued Crane's business for racial discrimination practices? No way Crane wants to go through something like that again, especially in today's environment. Does that have any affect on bringing Dusty back? You'd think it has to be a factor.

I don't know that it actually is true but if, IF Click is putting together a team based on certain analytics and Dusty is going against that for his own personal reasons, then Crane is crazy to bring him back.
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PSully97
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In reply to rak1693 • 9:06a, 11/3/21
AG
rak1693 said:
I don't think any of our pitchers can be counted on to take over the #1 spot. LMJ is too injury prone and the other guys are your #3 - #5 guys. We're going to need that #1 guy. I'd like to go after Robbie Ray or Stroman. We already have one lefty in Framber but should we try for another in Robbie Ray?
I think calling those guys 3 to 5 guys is selling them extremely short. I would bet a lot of money that at least one of the three ends up becoming a staff ace
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