****2020 Official Houston Astros We Don't Have To Cheat To Beat You Season Thread****

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AggieLit
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wangus12 said:

Oh look. National media saying everyone should be soooooooo angry right now. **** 'em. I did enjoy the little tidbit at the end on why you should root for the Astros


https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/30064947/so-houston-astros-headed-another-alcs-how-angry-be

Their initial article on our victory talked more about the cheating than the ALDS. There needs to be an alternative to ESPN, they are based outside NYC and have too much control over sports media.
Deluxe
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redline248 said:

AggiEE said:

No way we get rid of Greinke with Verlander out.

Are starting rotation needs a veteran presence. We've been lucky our rookies have done well but that can easily change
I agree with you, but I'm not sure if Greinke actually provides much veteran presence.
Exactly. I agree that we need some veterans on the staff, but that doesn't necessarily mean we need Greinke on the staff. We can bring in other veteran pitchers and get something for Greinke/clear his $22mm while he still has value.

Also, I'm perfectly fine with the idea of bringing Greinke back. I just doubt he's part of the long term plan for the club and might be best to just move on if there's external options we like more.
scrimp
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I'm also not sure MLB was protecting the blue bloods necessarily. I think MLB was protecting MLB. I don't think baseball could survive another steroid scandal or strike--the viewership has been declining for years. Manfried wasn't going to "get to the bottom" of the whole cheating thing--he wanted to make it go away as quietly as possible.
scrimp
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I like ZG and think he adds value to the team. Of course, I don't have to pay his salary.... But I think he has to be part of the plans for next year, at least. Think he has somewhat of a no-trade clause, and who is going to trade for him?
astros4545
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Farmer1906
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Deluxe said:

We'll see


You can never have too much pitching for a 162 game season. I doubt Greinke nets back much in return, plus we'll probably have to pay some of his salary.

I think we'll be standing pat on most of the trades unless it's someone minor.
Fat Bib Fortuna
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it we get to the WS against the Braves, it's Dusty against the team that signed him and he made his MLB debut with in 1968.

His big league debut in September 1968 as a 19-year-old call-up was against the Astros. Phil Niekro started for the Braves. Dusty's teammates included Hank Aaron, Joe Torre, Felipe Alou.

Astros won 6-3 on a bomb by Jim Wynn.

If it's against the Dodgers, it's the team he had two Top 10 MVP finishes with (1980, 1981) and played against the Astros in a one-game playoff to win the NL West in 1980 (Astros 7-1) and in the 1981 strike year played a best of 5 for the same right (Dodgers won 3 games to 2)
TarponChaser
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I'm sure it's been posted but this bears repeating and it's why I give zero ****s about the "cheating scandal."

Quote:

2017
In 2017, the Astros signed Carlos Beltran to serve as their DH, but also to serve as trusted veteran with a hall of fame resume, who could help the young core of predominantly Latin players navigate the upcoming season filled with great expectations. In many ways, Beltran was brought in to fill the role of a player/coach.

When you read the MLB investigation findings and pair them up side-by-side with the reporting from The Athletic, it doesn't require a ton of mental gymnastics to put 2 and 2 together. Early in the 2017 season, Carlos Beltran approached Astros bench coach Alex Cora and the two sought out to devise a system to steal signs that had helped Beltran while he was a player on a previous team. Other players on the team were made to believe that similar systems were being used to help other teams gain an advantage against them, which allowed a crucial mentality to envelop the team as they justified the system.

If everybody is doing the same thing, is it cheating or leveling the playing field?

When you speak to most fans of the game of baseball, this is the argument that they make when explaining why the use of pine-tar by pitchers isn't really breaking the rules. It is, of course, against the rules. It is widely known that pitchers use pine tar or other substances to improve grip, and consequently, spin rate, and this all goes overlooked as gamesmanship. The last notable pine tar punishment was in 2014 when Yankees pitcher Michael Pineda didn't even attempt to hide his use of the substance in a game against the Red Sox.

2019
Before sign stealing made headlines, there was Brandon Taubman taunting female reporters who had spoken out against the acquisition of reliever Roberto Osuna, who had served a prior suspension for domestic abuse. Initially, the Astros jumped to defend him, defying the accounts of journalists who were present. Days later, they issued an apology and Taubman was dismissed. Little did any of us know that the PR nightmare for the Astros was just beginning.

After the piece in The Athletic came out and Twitter collectively crowdsourced video evidence of the Astros sign stealing, the media covered everything as if it were the gospel. This included widely discredited theories of buzzers, whistles, and other nefarious ways of stealing signs. A burner account claiming to be the niece of Carlos Beltran implicated the Astros and Yankees for wearing buzzers under their uniforms. The Astros were already in the headlines, so the producers at major sports networks made the decision, then and there, to try to get the uncorroborated scoop from the later debunked Twitter account. It was irresponsible. It was damaging. Most importantly, it was disproven.
Things snowballed for the Astros from there, partly by their own doing, and partly by Major League Baseball commissioner, Rob Manfred.

With sign stealing, Manfred had his tenure defining moment, just as his predecessor had steroids. Complaints about sign stealing had been filed with the league office dating back to at least 2015. Each time, the investigation ended quietly, with a "nothing to see here" note being sent out. Manfred was either complicit or ignorant with regards to sign stealing. In retrospect, the investigations into prior complaints are the equivalent of a police officer pulling you over and simply asking, "Were you speeding?" and then letting you off with a warning. This happened up to the 2017 Yankees/Red Sox complaints. Even after finding that the Red Sox were relaying signals in real time using video and an apple watch, the commissioner slapped them on the wrist and issued a statement to the league that was the equivalent of, "Don't do that again. I'm serious this time. Really. Don't do it."

When the Astros case fell on his desk accompanied with so much evidence in 2019, he had no choice but to address the issue. In this moment, he opted to give the players immunity. He argued that he could not punish players who had moved on to new organizations, as that would cause an undue burden to teams that had not engaged in cheating. It was clear, he would punish the organization by stripping draft picks and cash. For an aging veteran team, taking draft picks was the start of a solid punishment. He could have issued the Astros a ban from the 2020 Postseason, but just like punishing the players, he deemed that unfair to the likes of Greinke and other newly acquired Astros who would endure the punishment of the crimes committed by predecessors. Manfred had the opportunity to vacate the 2017 World Series title from the Astros, but chose not to. The biggest reason? Publicly, he acknowledged precedent. These punishments, or lack thereof, have fallen flat in the baseball world.
If you listen to him speak, however, you hear him acknowledge that there were complaints with regards to numerous other teams as well. He couldn't strip the Astros of a title for breaking a rule that was being broken by numerous other teams as well. Industry sources report that if he had suspended the Astros, he would have opened the door to being forced to suspend as much as half of the league.

There is this notion that Rob Manfred is covering for the Astros. When you step back and listen, however, you realize that by not punishing the players, Manfred was actually covering for the rest of the league. Manfred was gift wrapped a chance to make sign stealing look like a one team issue, and by choosing to isolate only the Astros, he has made all the other complaints about sign stealing disappear, if only for now. If there's anything we have learned over the years, it is that no secret stays buried forever. Just as steroid users were outed one by one, the story of sign stealing is still being written. There will be more teams, more names, and more stories. If you had a favorite player in the late 90s or early 2000s, your greatest hope was that they didn't end up on a steroids report. If you're a fan of modern day baseball, your hope should be that your team isn't implicated in doing the exact same thing that was being done in Houston.

One major league manager told The Athletic, "It's an issue that permeates through the whole league." In 2018, esteemed baseball writer Tom Verducci reported for Sports Illustrated that "Many clubs now have as many as six high magnification cameras installed in their home ballpark specifically designed to steal signs from opponents." The article goes on to detail how the Dodgers organization had an entire team deployed just to decode signs. It should be noted that there was no implication that the Dodgers were relaying these signs in real time. "The big market teams have an advantage there," said another manager. "Now everybody is suspicious-and teams are suspicious because they're pulling the same tricks they're worried about the other guy pulling."

So why haven't we heard about what happened on other teams? This answer runs deep, but there are a few simple truths that the logical baseball fan should acknowledge. First, the Astros had a whistleblower RAT who had an axe to grind. By his own admissions, Mike Fiers has a strained relationship with the Astros. In his communication with The Athletic, he insisted that he just wanted to keep a level playing field by outing his former employer. It should be remembered, of course, that Fiers was famously left off the playoff roster and subsequently released in the off season. He went from making $3.45MM with Houston in 2017, to $1.8MM with Oakland in 2018. Had he stayed in the arbitration process, he would have received an anticipated $5MM or more, so while he may have been looking out for the little man, he most certainly had personal motivation as well.

After witnessing the vitriol the Astros have endured along with the distrust players around the league have expressed for Fiers, there is enormous pressure to keep a lid on anything that may have happened. A recent podcast featuring Joe Kelly alluded to the fact that he felt the Astros should have lied to protect their manager instead of ratting him out. Kelly has been outspoken in his disgust with the Astros, but this does make you wonder if his problem is with them cheating or with them admitting to cheating. Kelly, after all, was a member of the 17-18 Red Sox teams who were also investigated for similar misdeeds. It's not a leap to suggest that members of a franchise that dabbled in sign stealing would have agreed to a diluted account of what may have transpired.

https://www.crawfishboxes.com/2020/8/17/21371168/astros-cheating-scandal-orange-team-bad-mlb-kelly-laureano-houston

Deluxe
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TarponChaser said:

Quote:

There is this notion that Rob Manfred is covering for the Astros. When you step back and listen, however, you realize that by not punishing the players, Manfred was actually covering for the rest of the league. Manfred was gift wrapped a chance to make sign stealing look like a one team issue, and by choosing to isolate only the Astros, he has made all the other complaints about sign stealing disappear, if only for now. If there's anything we have learned over the years, it is that no secret stays buried forever. Just as steroid users were outed one by one, the story of sign stealing is still being written. There will be more teams, more names, and more stories. If you had a favorite player in the late 90s or early 2000s, your greatest hope was that they didn't end up on a steroids report. If you're a fan of modern day baseball, your hope should be that your team isn't implicated in doing the exact same thing that was being done in Houston.

IMO: The way Manfred handled everything kind of makes sense from MLB's perspective until you take this into consideration. There's just no way to keep a lid on everything that was happening around the league. Eventually truths will emerge.
EagleAg19
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Sheesh now I'm in a bad mood. Thanks.
Shenaniganz
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So I've stayed off this thread because I was ashamed of what the Astros did, and I was disappointed. But after the WCS and ALDS I am so effing fired up IDGAF what ANYONE says. THIS team is legit and has earned their way to the ALCS.

Also, Astros can we PLEASE find a closer that is more reliable? KThx
cone
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Quote:

There's just no way to keep a lid on everything that was happening around the league. Eventually truths will emerge.
by that time, no one will care

just like steroids

you polarize Bonds to take the spotlight off the rest of the league (*ahem* Clemens)
astros4545
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Guys

There are no unhittable closers in baseball anymore

Want to know the best remedy for closing out the ninth? Have a 7 run lead
scrimp
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Yep. Agree totally. Rightly or wrongly, the Astros were the easy scapegoat, because of the ample obvious video evidence.

Kind of like the spitball/scuffball pitchers of the 70s and 80s. Many were doing it, but only a few got caught. Later on, it was an accepted "fact" that so many of the pitchers were doing, but by then few cared....
Harry Dunne
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Farmer1906
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cone
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the ease of the scapegoat is a function of the local press pushback

if the local papers went into full burn it down mode it would have been different

best comp is the patriots. they got caught going too far. their ownership and local media went nuts calling it all a witch hunt. truth is somewhere in the middle, but the pushback was immediate. now they're bad guys who did what it took to win but you gotta respect it. Belichick is in commercials.

unfortunately we've got a bunch of dickless wonders like Rome and Kaplan. so they allowed our Belichick to get run out of the league. **** 'em all.
scrimp
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Fair point. Houston doesn't have homer journalist and national bloggers like NY teams do.
tjack16
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at this point I don't care about the national narrative. I just want to at least win the pennant. Hang another banner at MMP
TarponChaser
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tjack16 said:

at this point I don't care about the national narrative. I just want to at least win the pennant. Hang another banner at MMP

Fat Bib Fortuna
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astros4545 said:


Can we trade Chandler Rome to the Rangers?

The guy seems to have no concept of how incredilby lucky he is to be covering the Astros.
Ambres
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I was trying to figure out what happen to all our pitchers from 2017 ..

Was surprised that only 4 pitchers (Devo, McCullers, Peacock and Verlander) were still w/ the team and Lance is the only one playing this series.

2017 Astros Pitchers (What happen to them?)


19 Tyler Clippard signed a one-year contract in 2020 w/ Twins compiling a 2-1 record w/ 2.77 ERA and 26 strikeouts in 26. Innings.
47 Chris Devenski - **** injured/listed day to day 29 Sept
38 Dayn Daz designed for assignment on August 31, 2017. Signed for Angels but failed to report
45 Michael Feliz traded to Pirates on Jan 2018.
54 Mike Fiers signed a one year contract w/ Tiger on Dec 2017 then traded to the As.. coward in fear during the 2020 ADLS
53 Ken Giles traded to Jays on July 30, 2018 for Osuna.. underwent Tommy John Surgery on Sept 2020
44 Luke Gregerson signed w/ St Louis on Dec 2017. He was released on May 20, 2019
64 Reymin Guduan on Aug 2019, suspended for non-specific reason, designed for assignment the following month. Signed a minor league deal w/ Dodgers in 2019.
61 Jandel Gustave suffer muscle strain and required Tommy John surgery. Released at the end of 2018. Currently signed a minor league deal w/ Pirates.
36 Will Harris Signed w/ the Nationals in 2020
51 James Hoyt traded to the Indians for Tommy DeJuneas .. traded to Marlin on Aug 2020 for cash.
65 Jordan Jankowski claimed off waivers by the Dodger on August 2017. Signed minor league contract w/ Angels in 2018.. but released by May 2018
60 Dallas Keuchel signed w/ Braves in 2019 then signed w/ White Socks 2020 6-2 w/ 1.99 ERA
35,46 Francisco Liriano signed w/ Detroit in 2018. Opted out of 2020 due to COVID-19
58 Francis Martes demoted to minor league in 2018 then underwent Tommy John. Suspended in 2019 for 80 games.. then suspended again in 2020 for 162 games.. a real baller.
43 Lance McCullers Wait he is still on the team and playing.. after requiring Tommy John in 2018.
31 Collin McHugh signed a one year contract w/ Red Sox on 2020
50 Charlie Morton signed a 2-year contract w/ Rays on 2018
59 Joe Musgrove traded to Pirates for Gerrit Cole, 2018.
63 David Paulino traded to Jays for Osuna on 2018. He was designed for assignment on Aug 2019
41 Brad Peacock underwent arthroscopic surgery on Wednesday
29 Tony Sipp 2019 signed w/ Nationals. Designated for assignment on Aug 2019.
46 Ashur Tolliver signed w/ Long Island Ducks on April 2018.. he was on the 40 man roster.. but never heard of him. Had to check twice.
35 Justin Verlander Tommy John surgery on Sept 30, 2020

Decided to do the rest of the team.. cause I was bored today.


Catchers - no surprise here
30 Juan Centeno claimed off waivers on Nov 2017 by the Rangers. 2020 non-roster invitee to Red Sox
11 Evan Gattis retired on Oct 2019
16 Brian McCann signed a one year contract w/ the Braves on 2018.
12 Max Stassi traded Angels for Rivas and Uceta. In 2020, he led catcher in stolen bases allowed w/ 32 in 31 games.

Infielders 4/9 still on the team... Altuve, Bregman, Correa and Gurriel
27 Jos Altuve horrible 2020 season but had some great at bats this series.. wait for it.
2 Alex Bregman second-highest fielding percentage of all AL third basemen at .979
1 Carlos Correa Oakland As offer to pay for his next massage this year
28 J. D. Davis on 2019, traded to Mets Adolph, Santana and Manea.
9 Marwin Gonzlez on 2019, signed w/ Twins. Watched the Astros beat him during the Wild Card
10 Yuli Gurriel having a rough season but expect his slump to break in time for this next series
8,19,38 Colin Moran traded as part of the Gerrit Cole trade of 2018.
23 A. J. Reed designed for assignment on 2019 and picked off waiver by White Sox. On March 2020, retired at age 26.
13 Tyler White designed for assignment on 2019, traded for Andrew Scubbs to the Dodger. Released on July 2020 after eating all the food in the vistor center.. playing for South Korean baseball team Wyverns..

Outfielders 2/9 players .. wow i was surprised on how deep the outfield has changed.. only Springer and Reddick.

3 Nori Aoki traded on July 2017 for Liriano. Ended his carear w/ Tokyo Swallows.
15 Carlos Beltrn retired after 2017 season. Scapegoat for the sign stealing scandal and lost the skipper job w/ the Mets.
21 Derek Fisher traded on 2019 to the Jays for Sanchez and Biagini and Stevenson. 2020, he batted .226 w/ 1 home run and 7 RBIs in 16 games.
35 Teoscar Hernndez on July 2017, traded for Liriano to the Jays. On 2020, he hit .289 w/ 16 hrs and 34 RBIs
18 Tony Kemp traded on 2019 to Cubs for Maldonado then he was traded again to As.
6 Jake Marisnick traded on 2019 to Mets for Blake Taylor and Kennedy Corona
3 Cameron Maybin list of teams he played for since 2017 (Marlins, Mariners, Giants Indians, Yankees, Detroit, and Cubs).. dude loves to be traded.
22 Josh Reddick robbing HRs but.. had a poor season in 2020
4 George Springer Mr. October
Source: MLB.com and Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Houston_Astros_season

Overall: Springer, Reddick, Gurriel, Correa, Bregman, Altuve, McCullers are the only players active from the 2017 team that is current in the next series.
Buck Compton
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Damn, I forgot about Gregersuck... blocked that worthless Save-blowing 89mph fastball ass out of my mind
Nuke LaLoosh
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Buck Compton said:

Damn, I forgot about Gregersuck... blocked that worthless Save-blowing 89mph fastball ass out of my kind


Imagine a way worse Greinke as your closer
Deluxe
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Good stuff. Crazy how bad we sucked at getting production out of our pitching prospects before Click got here.
Farmer1906
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EagleAg19
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The hatred I had for Sipp, Gregerson, and Fiers... my blood boiled every time they took the mound
Ambres
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Deluxe said:

Good stuff. Crazy how bad we sucked at getting production out of our pitching prospects before Click got here.
I forgot how bad our pitching was until I started digging. I really believe that the 2019 team was the best Astros team ever follow closely by the 2018.
scrimp
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Look like Biagini opted to become a free agent instead of going to Round Rock. Didn't know players had that option.
Ambres
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scrimp said:

Look like Biagini opted to become a free agent instead of going to Round Rock. Didn't know players had that option.
He is great during the press conference but horrible on the mound. The good news for the Astros.. we don't have to pay him.
JJxvi
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scrimp said:

Look like Biagini opted to become a free agent instead of going to Round Rock. Didn't know players had that option.
You can refuse being outrighted to the minors if you have 5 years of MLB service time.
scrimp
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Interesting. I never really paid attention to the service time/team option stuff.

Seems like a good win/win. He can attempt to get on with another team, and the 'stros don't have to pay his salary.

That trade with the Blue Jays seemed like the Astros fleeced the Jays--Sanchez looked like he could be a legit 4/5 starter, and Biagini looked like a solid BP arm, and we gave up a guy that was never going to get a chance to establish himself as more than a pinch runner or late inning sub. But with Sanchez's injury, and Biagini never showing those previous flashes, I think neither team won that trade....
Ambres
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scrimp said:

Interesting. I never really paid attention to the service time/team option stuff.

Seems like a good win/win. He can attempt to get on with another team, and the 'stros don't have to pay his salary.

That trade with the Blue Jays seemed like the Astros fleeced the Jays--Sanchez looked like he could be a legit 4/5 starter, and Biagini looked like a solid BP arm, and we gave up a guy that was never going to get a chance to establish himself as more than a pinch runner or late inning sub. But with Sanchez's injury, and Biagini never showing those previous flashes, I think neither team won that trade....
Too bad we had to trade Derek Fisher.. he was about to DFA .

Well at least we got a no-hitter out of it.
Wabs
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Anyone missing Soto's punchable face this postseason? Didn't think so.
redline248
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Quote:

Oakland As offer to pay for his next massage this year
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