jschroeder said:

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Correct.

The TV coverage is a double edged sword. Without it, LL will just die off. With it, you get all the b.s. us overly involved dad's do.

One kid on my son's select team was straight up asked if he'd be willing to live with his cousin a few months. When his mother balked at the idea she said their response was "do you want to play on TV?"

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It won't/wouldn't.

Baseball-Junkie said:

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A lot of the kids from the LA championship team have been together, playing select ball for years. They have a pretty stout 12U Majors team. My son's select team has tried to work it's way back into LL just for the All-Star aspect of it, but the local Little League would break the team up for season play.

This Lousiana Little League wanted to compete and probably made a few exceptions to put together a stout team. I am not saying there is anything nefarious with the All-Star team itself, but they probably did what they could, to get the best USSSA players back into the LL system.

https://www.usssa.com/baseball/teamHome/?teamID=2715115


https://www.littleleague.org/world-series/2019/llbws/teams/southwest-region/

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These kids are freaking 12. People need to lighten the hell up.

03_Aggie said:

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jschroeder said:

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As mentioned above, the first thing is no weekend games for the LL majors level. It allows the select ball kids to play their games without interfering with tournaments. Also, keep the minors teams with 9/10u select kids earlier on Saturday if you need to schedule their teams on that day.

Figuring out if you can schedule the weeknight games in such a way that they don't interfere with select ball practices helps as well. Try doubleheaders. The less time you require of the select kids the better.

As far as getting as many of them on the same regular season team as possible, good luck, you need to depend on your LL coaches 'playing ball' for that. Playing on the same regular season LL team isn't very important for all-stars though and the caliber of kids you need to get to that level couldn't care less about regular season LL. You must make it clear to anybody who drafts those kids that they'll likely miss some/all practices and several games.

It may sound like I'm saying your league is subservient to select ball .that's because it is. A LL mentioned on ESPN even when they don't make it tried pulling rank and putting demands on some of their uber elite level select kids this year and it was made clear to them where they stood in the pecking order.

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People have completely lost site of what LL is supposed to be about.

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I agree, and I'm not a fan of LL at all. But, LL is about kids playing. It's rec ball. The league should not be structured for All Star domination, it should be about kids having fun.

Don't get me started on how silly LL rules are as kids get older. My boy is 7 and will probably do LL only one more year. He's doing travel as well, but that is almost solely practice at his age, they've done one scrimmage. The kids are encouraged to play LL/Pony in the Spring.

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It won't/wouldn't.

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Correction..will bleed the kids who give a **** to select ball at a rate even faster than they already. Once the select kids are entirely gone, it will absolutely fall off a cliff in terms of quality of play. Then somebody on the board will ask why 12 year olds are still playing on 60' bases with no lead offs when PONY and Babe Ruth let kids play a much more appropriate style of baseball and !!!!BAMMMM!!!! you're now joining the list of charters that switch each year.

For the record, yes, LL is slowly dying off. The best numbers I can find indicate that LL is down somewhere between 20-40% in the past decade.

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I agree, and I'm not a fan of LL at all. But, LL is about kids playing. It's rec ball. The league should not be structured for All Star domination, it should be about kids having fun.

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You can keep your local LL structured around the rec aspect of it and nobody will complain. There's nothing wrong with keeping it simple and getting knocked in district or sectionals. The amount of teams that make it past sectional is already extremely small to begin with and it's not realistic for most small leagues to hope to get past that point. Maybe in other states, but not in Texas.

However, if you want to get anywhere within 1-2 levels of Williamsport in most states, you have to do what you can to get the select kids involved. Those kids on TV aren't getting to that point by playing 12 regular season LL games.

ORAggieFan said:

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03_Aggie said:

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jschroeder said:

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As mentioned above, the first thing is no weekend games for the LL majors level. It allows the select ball kids to play their games without interfering with tournaments. Also, keep the minors teams with 9/10u select kids earlier on Saturday if you need to schedule their teams on that day.

Figuring out if you can schedule the weeknight games in such a way that they don't interfere with select ball practices helps as well. Try doubleheaders. The less time you require of the select kids the better.

As far as getting as many of them on the same regular season team as possible, good luck, you need to depend on your LL coaches 'playing ball' for that. Playing on the same regular season LL team isn't very important for all-stars though and the caliber of kids you need to get to that level couldn't care less about regular season LL. You must make it clear to anybody who drafts those kids that they'll likely miss some/all practices and several games.

It may sound like I'm saying your league is subservient to select ball .that's because it is. A LL mentioned on ESPN even when they don't make it tried pulling rank and putting demands on some of their uber elite level select kids this year and it was made clear to them where they stood in the pecking order.

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People have completely lost site of what LL is supposed to be about.

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I agree, and I'm not a fan of LL at all. But, LL is about kids playing. It's rec ball. The league should not be structured for All Star domination, it should be about kids having fun.

Don't get me started on how silly LL rules are as kids get older. My boy is 7 and will probably do LL only one more year. He's doing travel as well, but that is almost solely practice at his age, they've done one scrimmage. The kids are encouraged to play LL/Pony in the Spring.

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Agreed. Without the pageantry and tv coverage of the LL World Series, the archaic fields and rules that LL plays by would make them an afterthought.

It would be nice to see LL try and adapt a little, but I don't think they ever will.

Still pretty neat watching the kids at the World Series even if it more closely resembles softball than baseball.

Maybe you're right. I mean it's survived for 80 yrs but maybe LL isn' t what it used to be. That said, "select kids" aren't what they used to be either.

I read through the thread, but still a bit confused. So I know LL (rec) evens out the teams, so there are no stacked teams. Are you guys saying this team was placed into LL (which I can't see that being allowed). Or that the team was broken up and dispersed throughout the LL teams, and then "selected" back together as the All Star team?

I was thinking that all the teams at the LLWS had to be LL (rec) all star teams, but I've always been curious as to how select/travel teams get in there.

The "survived for 80 years" thing is part of what's holding them back. There's a certain level of arrogance and stubbornness that makes them think the LL style of play doesn't need to change. And hey, they're the ones with the ESPN contract so go **** yourself if you think differently.

Seriously, they get PAID by ESPN to promote their organization for more than two weeks every summer and still continue to bleed players at a 1-3% yearly rate.

You're right though, there's no shortage of select teams that will take anybody willing to write a check (my son's team played a team in Houston that was 0-17 with an AVERAGE score of 17-2) but those aren't the kids that have an impact on LL all star teams.

MSFC Aggie said:

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I read through the thread, but still a bit confused. So I know LL (rec) evens out the teams, so there are no stacked teams. Are you guys saying this team was placed into LL (which I can't see that being allowed). Or that the team was broken up and dispersed throughout the LL teams, and then "selected" back together as the All Star team?

I was thinking that all the teams at the LLWS had to be LL (rec) all star teams, but I've always been curious as to how select/travel teams get in there.

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Either of those situations could be the case. It has pretty much been SOP for a number of years that the Williamsport level teams competed as travel/select ball teams for a couple of years prior to their re-entry into LL for a run at the World Series.

Nothing nefarious or illegal, it just is what it is.

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I was thinking that all the teams at the LLWS had to be LL (rec) all star teams, but I've always been curious as to how select/travel teams get in there.

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They do.

Select/travel teams "get in there" by having kids in the residency area for the league and just signing up for LL. Whether that's done properly or not is a different subject.

I guess I would ask what rules have changed in baseball in the last 80 yrs that the now makes the "LL way" obsolete?

Mound visits?
Pitch clocks?
Data Analytics?
The Opener?

Lead offs and steals aren't new. I think the distance for bases and pitching have been 90' and 60'6" for quite some time.

Good grief.

I guess LL could start with allowing those rules to be used in their "baseball" leagues.

Yeah, every baseball person I talk to says "get the kid in Pony or other real baseball, not LL". It's a joke. I compare my daughter's softball and laugh, at 7 she was allowed to be on deck, nope in LL.

As a LL Fall Ball manager last year, I couldn't believe I got an email explaining how coaches are not allowed to throw to kids in uniform on day game. Seriously. Below are the rules we received midway through the season. I know another coach that got written up because a kid had to go to the bathroom (who was around 10). Manager said to see his parents. Parents said bathroom is right there (about 20 feet away) and to go. Manager got written up for not having an adult accompany the kid.

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elow is a summary of key safety issues that you need to both be aware of an actively enforce. The good news is that safety is not solely your responsibility. Every coach and parent shares in your duties to ensure that RPLL is a safe environment at all times. I recommend you forward this message to your Fall ball parents and ask that they help you ensure a safe environment.

[ol]

No adult may play catch with a uniformed player at any time on any game day.

[ol]

There are no exceptions to this Little League International rule.

This includes non-managers/coaches playing catch with their son/daughter.

[/ol]

Food is prohibited for any adult or player on the field or in the dugout. This includes gum and sunflower seeds.

[ol]

If someone needs a snack during a game, they should go "outside the fences" to consume food.

[/ol]

Only one player may have a bat in their hand at all times.

There is never an on deck circle. All players must remain in the dugout when a teammate is batting. Bats should be kept outside of the dugout.

If using a pitching machine, the pitching machine itself is a significant hazard and can cause serious injury. The adult that is pitching using that machine must remain close enough to the machine at all times to ensure no player gets close enough to be in danger. In between innings, the adult pitcher should stay by the machine until the opponents adult pitcher arrives to the machine.

No player should be allowed to go to the bathroom on their own. A responsible adult (preferably the parent of the player) should attend with them.

No more than three adults on the field/dugout at a time during games. For T-ball, there can be four adults at a time.

[ol]

Parents need to stay off the field. The only exception to this is serious injury. Taking photos or bringing their player water are not exceptions.

One adult must be in the dugout at all times.

[/ol]

Players should be properly equipped. Catchers must be wearing a protective cup and wearing a catcher's helmet with dangling throat guard.

[ol]

A batters helmet with mask is not an acceptable alternative to a catcher's helmet.

[/ol]

If you see something that seems unsafe, say something.

[/ol]

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I'd be willing to bet the rules aren't the major reason for the decline.

We switched from LL to Pony/Colt and we see the same ebbs and flows each year. It isn't because of the rules.

03_Aggie said:

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I'd be willing to bet the rules aren't the major reason for the decline.

We switched from LL to Pony/Colt and we see the same ebbs and flows each year. It isn't because of the rules.

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I'll take that bet. Kids and parents of kids want to play real baseball; on real fields.

It is certainly true that rec league participation in general is waning mainly because of the infatuation with travel ball and the unfounded fear parents have of their kid getting behind. LL has just decided to double down on the dumb.

LL has the most name recognition and is really the most suited organization to stem the tide of travel ball, but their unwillingness to not change their rules/fields to fit modern day players is making them more and more irrelevant. It is really quite frustrating to watch.

Eh, I get the differences at 12u/13u. The outflows start some at 8u and more at 9u. At those ages LL, Pony and USSA fields are all pretty much the same size.

Also, to be clear, if your kid enjoys LL baseball, none of what anybody said dogging on LL should matter to you. Play where your kid is happy and you enjoy watching them play. I hate that baseball dad "my way is better than your way" bull *****

The select ball stuff just came up because while there are districts that you can win without going all in on select, you're going to be hard pressed to find anything at the sectional (district -> sectional -> state -> regional -> Williamsport) or higher level where the teams aren't at a minimum 80%+ select ball players.

03_Aggie said:

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Eh, I get the differences at 12u/13u. The outflows start some at 8u and more at 9u. At those ages LL, Pony and USSA fields are all pretty much the same size.

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I'll give my take with a 7 yo now. And I echo the comments above to play whatever a kid wants.

My boy is not an elite athlete, but he can hold his own in baseball. He also loves baseball. In first grade at 7, he was frustrated in LL. He'd question why a kid didn't throw to get the leader runner out or why they didn't try and turn two. Like I said, the kid loves baseball. As a coach, I'd get frustrated having to babysit 1/3 of the team. Mostly kids who really didn't want to be there. I'd often have to move kids mid-inning to a position that was safer for them so they wouldn't get hurt.

After the season, my boy wanted to keep playing. A buddy has been with one of the elite clubs here in San Diego for 20+ seasons and invited him to practice. This is what they call The Academy, a new group for 7u and 8u that primarily focuses on practice. In three months my kid has played in one scrimmage and no official games. They start transition more to tournaments at 9u.

Two things stand out. One, the level of coaching is insanely good. His head coach has coached as high as college and was an assistant under Tony Gwynn. The kids are working on fundamentals non stop. Very little hitting, tons of fielding, some base running. Non stop drills with footwork, receiving the ball, hitting the cutoff, etc. It's amazing to watch the kids improve so fast.

The other thing is the kids WANT to be there. The coaches aren't babysitting. They have at times 18 kids for two coaches and although a few kids goof off here and there (they are 7 and 8), it's mostly kids wanting to get better.

They encourage the kids to play in a rec Spring league and All Stars if they make it (Pony starts All Stars earlier than LL), then come back as that ends.

I'm not sure my kid will be good enough to stay with this team as the competition increases, but for now it's a greta fit. He definitely enjoys it more than LL being around kids with similar attitudes.