Why in the world have they stopped even trying to sign anyone with a pulse? Is it ownership? They have the money and a desirable stadium? Is JD just dropping the ball?
Rangers: a true big market team?
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Last: 5 yr ago by powerbelly
It's called rebuilding. No point in throwing money at a bunch of guys who won't get you over the hump. Let the young guys play while replenishing the farm and building for a couple years down the road.piag94 said:
Why in the world have they stopped even trying to sign anyone with a pulse? Is it ownership? They have the money and a desirable stadium? Is JD just dropping the ball?
I get the rebuild. I am not talking bout Harper or machado. But it would be nice to field a team with pro players....not a handful of scrubs.
It all starts with pitching. Rangers have failed to develop a TOR starter (Ace or consistent No. 2). Darvish, Lee, etc were all FA/Trade acquisitions. Having cheap but effective TOR options in place allow you to spend more freely in the FA market.
another AA/AAA team with MLB ticket prices. Another 95-100 loss team.
The Rangers depth charts projection on FG is 73 wins. Adding Harper, Manny, and Pat Corbin probably gets them to around 87 or 88 wins.
Astros win projection is 95 wins. 500 mill plus for a shot at the WC game probably doesn't sound great to an owner or owners.
Astros win projection is 95 wins. 500 mill plus for a shot at the WC game probably doesn't sound great to an owner or owners.
Harper and Machado probably make more sense than any other free agents because at least with them it's possibly a long-term deal (sans opt-out) that you could justify Year 1 being irrelevant and Years 2-5 being the value where you are competing.
So unless you're inking one of those -- which is unlikely for most teams not just Texas -- like others have said, what's the point? Spend money to win 81 instead of 79?
So unless you're inking one of those -- which is unlikely for most teams not just Texas -- like others have said, what's the point? Spend money to win 81 instead of 79?
Arlington, TX population 397,772 doesn't really scream big market.
Take it from an Astro fan... when one of your "rebuilding scrubs" turns into current day JD Martinez... it's incredibly gratifying.
You have the time to do it now with the Stros building a super power type franchise. A few big signings isn't going to get you to compete with those guys quite yet. A potential wild card maybe but not the division. The rangers need to do it the slow way like the Stros did and just suck a while and take advantage when the time comes.
But the Rangers fans took great offense to sucking for a few years like the Astros did. Said it was a mockery etc etc. Couldn't possible lower themselves to that level
You can rebuild without going into full blown, shuttering the doors, tank-mode.
I have no desire to do what the Astros did and it pains me that baseball has moved in the "tank until we have a sure fire winner" instead of "slowly build the pieces to be good".
Would I do it if the WS on the other side was guaranteed? Sure... But what Houston did was bad for baseball and has helped usher a trend that is base for baseball.
I have no desire to do what the Astros did and it pains me that baseball has moved in the "tank until we have a sure fire winner" instead of "slowly build the pieces to be good".
Would I do it if the WS on the other side was guaranteed? Sure... But what Houston did was bad for baseball and has helped usher a trend that is base for baseball.
Why not sign 3/4 vets on two year deals, then trade them for prospects at the trade deadline?
Why does becoming a champion bother you?free_mhayden said:
I have no desire to do what the Astros did and it pains me that baseball has moved in the "tank until we have a sure fire winner" instead of "slowly build the pieces to be good".
Because you didn't do it an honorable enough way.
The CBA between the players and owners is up in '21 I believe. The tanking issue will come to a head then. I can see the players pushing for a minimum team salary amount (per team), i.e. a floor, to help offset teams from totally tanking with young players. The analytics is changing how many veterans get more than a 1 or 2 year free agent deal, and even then they get lowballed or replaced with younger players. Something will have to give somewhere, or we will get to see a work stoppage.
I cant understand the logic of players to say "We dont like that you are using cheaper players who produce the exact same amount we do. You should use us. And by the way we cost $20 million a year"
The Milkman said:
I cant understand the logic of players to say "We dont like that you are using cheaper players who produce the exact same amount we do. You should use us. And by the way we cost $20 million a year"
I get what you are saying, and that works on a case by case basis. But the players are going to look at the overall market. MLB revenues are up, but the percentage of those revenues being spent on player salaries has been decreasing the past few seasons. That will end up being the crux of the issue.
I don't understand that, either. But, of course, usually when teams forego an expensive free agent for a cheap free agent, the cheap free agent doesn't perform anywhere near as well as the expensive free agent.The Milkman said:
I cant understand the logic of players to say "We dont like that you are using cheaper players who produce the exact same amount we do. You should use us. And by the way we cost $20 million a year"
In any case, MLB is nothing without the players and they're not doing anything illogical pushing for higher salaries as revenues increase.
MLB and their players cut a grand bargain by allowing teams to control players for years without the player having any bargaining power.
The trade off is a free agent system that is relatively player friendly.
The trade off is a free agent system that is relatively player friendly.
WES2006AG said:Why does becoming a champion bother you?free_mhayden said:
I have no desire to do what the Astros did and it pains me that baseball has moved in the "tank until we have a sure fire winner" instead of "slowly build the pieces to be good".
I literally said in the post I would do it if the WS was guaranteed.
But it's not... Astros got one, kudos for them -- they'll be able to claim a World Series title forever, hopefully the Rangers one day will get too also.
But it will be a long time before we see another team have a 4-year stretch as bad as Houston did.
Farmer1906 said:
Because you didn't do it an honorable enough way.
Doesn't really matter if it's "honorable" or not, but it's ushered in an era of "Well if we aren't likely to win the division let's just punt before the season even starts."
It's now become a race to the bottom for a large percentage of MLB teams -- except now there will be a lot more competition on the other side when the rebuild finally completes.
So we're going to continually see seasons where 75% of baseball teams are eliminated by the All Star Break, which anyone would agree is bad for baseball.
Because some people are above winning a championship the "wrong way."WES2006AG said:Why does becoming a champion bother you?free_mhayden said:
I have no desire to do what the Astros did and it pains me that baseball has moved in the "tank until we have a sure fire winner" instead of "slowly build the pieces to be good".
free_mhayden said:Farmer1906 said:
Because you didn't do it an honorable enough way.
Doesn't really matter if it's "honorable" or not, but it's ushered in an era of "Well if we aren't likely to win the division let's just punt before the season even starts."
It's now become a race to the bottom for a large percentage of MLB teams -- except now there will be a lot more competition on the other side when the rebuild finally completes.
So we're going to continually see seasons where 75% of baseball teams are eliminated by the All Star Break, which anyone would agree is bad for baseball.
There always have been had teams, even before the "era of tanking." There will always be bad teams. I'd like for you to do a comparison of season competitiveness for the last 20 years since you are making the claim the Astros have ushered in an era of bad baseball.
There's a difference between "bad baseball" and what the Astros did.
The Astros lost more games over a 4-season stretch than any team in the history of modern baseball.
The Astros lost more games over a 4-season stretch than any team in the history of modern baseball.
free_mhayden said:
There's a difference between "bad baseball" and what the Astros did.
The Astros lost more games over a 4-season stretch than any team in the history of modern baseball.
And all they have to show for it is a World Series trophy. It is absurd that you are still making this argument.
WES2006AG said:free_mhayden said:
There's a difference between "bad baseball" and what the Astros did.
The Astros lost more games over a 4-season stretch than any team in the history of modern baseball.
And all they have to show for it is a World Series trophy. It is absurd that you are still making this argument.
I don't think anyone is disputing that it worked. He is saying it's not good for baseball when several teams go into the season in tank mode and not even trying to compete.
KT 90 said:WES2006AG said:free_mhayden said:
There's a difference between "bad baseball" and what the Astros did.
The Astros lost more games over a 4-season stretch than any team in the history of modern baseball.
And all they have to show for it is a World Series trophy. It is absurd that you are still making this argument.
I don't think anyone is disputing that it worked. He is saying it's not good for baseball when several teams go into the season in tank mode and not even trying to compete.
I thought it was clear, but a few Astros fans are so dead-set on defending their team's honor. I literally said in my first post that I would trade that 4-season stretch if it was a guarantee to get a WS on the other side, but that got parsed out because some Houston fans are a bit insecure.
free_mhayden said:
There's a difference between "bad baseball" and what the Astros did.
The Astros lost more games over a 4-season stretch than any team in the history of modern baseball.
I hear you that you would trade it for the way it worked out for the Astros.
What I'm saying is that the Astros as an organization said hey look, our farm system is in terrible shape because prior management kept spending to keep the big league club competitive while being either a bad evaluator of talent or a bad grower of talent. It finally came to a head when guys like Oswalt, Clemens, and Pettitte were done. And they still kept trying to spend to stay competitive while making bad deals and bad contracts. Eventually they were a bad team with a bad farm system.
New management said what's best for our organization is to completely rebuild and retool. So they did it. They took the chance that would test fan loyalty and the future of the club.
And you know this is a copy cat league. Hell, the As in the last month of their season completely changed what was successful for them and went with a bullpen starter that the Rays had only tried out less than a season with hardly any data at all to back it up.
I also agree with you that there are ways to win without going the complete rebuild route. I'm not even saying a team has to go the Astros' route. The A's did it last year and we'll see if they can build on it this year.
My point is this: bad baseball is bad baseball. Each organization has to look at themselves and say, how are we going to win a World Series? If it means a complete rebuild for a chance to win in 5 years versus not and a chance to win in 10, that's the organizations call. At the end of the day, decide how you, as an organization, are going to win a word series and give zero Fs about if it's good for baseball or not. Baseball will make you change leagues when buying a team for their own interest. They don't care about our Midwest teams - if they did, both of our teams wouldn't have 60% of divisional opponents on the west coast.
If I were a "rebuilding" team signing a young FA like Harper or Machado makes tons of sense to me. Surprised only the contenders are in the mix so far.
10andBOUNCE said:
If I were a "rebuilding" team signing a young FA like Harper or Machado makes tons of sense to me. Surprised only the contenders are in the mix so far.
I doubt harper or machado want to go to a rebuilding team.
powerbelly said:10andBOUNCE said:
If I were a "rebuilding" team signing a young FA like Harper or Machado makes tons of sense to me. Surprised only the contenders are in the mix so far.
I doubt harper or machado want to go to a rebuilding team.
Would more depend on of the team in question has the payroll to build around them (and has shown the willingness to spend it in the past).
If I were San Diego I'd be kicking myself. Spent all that money last year on Hosmer when they could have applied it to Harper. You give Harper a ton of money to move to San Diego for 10 years I bet he's there in a heartbeat. Their farm system is stacked.
Mets, Rangers, Mariners, Angels, White Sox all seem like reasonable rebuilding teams that would make moderate sense.
Mets, Rangers, Mariners, Angels, White Sox all seem like reasonable rebuilding teams that would make moderate sense.
Yeah San Diego continues to be that franchise that you think is right on the cusp of turning things around and really being peppered with a good combination of young controllable talent and the money to spend on free agents.
Then it's like they get antsy and make a move that doesn't make any sense.
Then it's like they get antsy and make a move that doesn't make any sense.
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