is this about them? that has nothing to do with it. good for them.

It does when you make statements like "If you want to lean in, take your crappy elbow guard off." Tabata isn't in some magical world where he's the only one who leans in on pitches. This is a widely practiced and accepted tendency in baseball. You can't separate this one just because you get your feelings hurt that Scherzer threw a bad pitch.

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Bleh, double post.

What I'm saying here is that this situation doesn't exist in a bubble. It happens multiple times every day in baseball, elbow guard or no elbow guard. If you start policing HBP, it has to be done throughout the league, not just in the 9th inning of a perfect game. That will never happen, because it opens up an enormous "can of worms". For example, if a RHB reads curve off a RHP hand, he naturally anticipates the timing and arc of the ball and where to swing. About 2/3 the way to the plate, he realizes that the pitch isn't going to break. By that time, it's too late to react. Plunk, right on the elbow. Under the MLB's actual rule, the batter would not be awarded 1st base, even though the blame is 100% on the pitcher. It's a judgement issue.

The MLB has been pretty good about not watering it's game down. I understand the frustration, I really do. We've already seen the NFL outlaw hitting "defenseless" receivers, tackling a guy by his shoulder pads, and even certain kinds of stiff arms. The NHL, in an attempt to up the scoring, has gone out of its way to call stupid ticky-tack penalties that create more scoring situations. Those things drive me insane and they hurt the games we love, but it's part of the game. You can sit back and complain about it like a puss, or you can adjust to the times and play the game the way it's called.

Find me a single player who purposely throws an unguarded elbow in front of a pitch the way he did. Leaning a shoulder into a pitch or turning is one thing. What he did is something else altogether. Getting all armored up so you can dig in on the inside corner is lame.

no it doesn't. i've never liked it when anyone does it when they're protected with elbow guards. the fact that some guys do it with out it is what I would want to see.

HBP Compilation (WARNING: Graphic)

Many of these are severe anomalies, but I tried to highlight much of what we've been discussing in this argument. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a compilation of Rougned Odor or Shin Soo Choo taking pitches on the elbow. Still, this illustrates a serious problem with the rule currently in place and why it isn't enforced.

:35 - Shows you why guys will wear the elbow guard.

7:50 - A great example of why players shouldn't always get out of the way of pitches. By trying get out of the way, the batter's body actually opens up and comes over the plate when the ball hits him. Had he just stood his ground, the ball would've missed him entirely.

8:30 - Jason Worth turns to take the pitch in the back. Makes no move to get out of the way. He actually brings his elbow in to take the possible hit instead of it striking the ribcage. Textbook form.

9:30 - Jeter takes a pitch in the elbow. Had he just turned his back instead of attempting to get out of the way, he would've taken it in the back and been better off. (Another example of this move at 27:30)

11:40 - A great example of what I mentioned in my previous post. Granderson reads a breaking pitch the doesn't break as expected. He takes it off the foot without ever moving. By the letter of the law, he should not be awarded a base.

16:40 - Garcia, in the 15th inning, turns his back subtly puts his shoulder out to take a pitch that leads to a walk off win for St. Louis.

22:05 - Craig takes a pitch off the back of the helmet. A no win situation there, but you rarely see the player turn his back on a head shot. This one worked out well for Craig.

23:05 - David Ortiz, while trying to "avoid" a pitch, purposefully moves more into its path to take it off a softer part of the body.

30:00 - Batter misreads a breaking ball. He clearly thinks it's coming at his head, so he drops. Unfortunately, the break is greater than expected and the ball actually hits his head at about waist level. Another dangerous example of why you shouldn't always try and avoid a pitch.

39:40 - Cabrera lowers his elbow into a pitch. You can diss elbow guards all you want, but it would have saved him here. The pitch is headed directly for his ribs. Instead of taking it on the ribs, he lowers the elbow into the path of the ball.

43:50 - Stanton getting hit by a pitch in the face. When he realizes what's happening, he attempts to move his arms into the path of the ball, but it's too late.

53:05 - Marte lowers his arms to take a pitch. Not unlike Tabata, but different in the fact that Marte did it in a swinging motion (brought the bat with him, ala Prince Fielder. This looks far more "natural" than what Tabata did). Drops his arms too low for it be an actual swing. Looks like he quickly regretted it.


I hope that helps the understanding of why I'm not in support of you guys talking down on players who wear guards and take pitches to the body.

Like I said earlier, I understand y'all's frustrations, but it's a rule that simply can not be enforced unless the batter (a) swings or (2) gets hit in the strike zone.

BassCowboy33, you sure are talking a whole lot for someone who didn't even know what the rule was.

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you want to lean in? take off your crappy elbow guard.

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Guys lean in all the time without elbow guards.

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And guys should be able to pitch inside without fearing a player could pull an Alex Rodriguez slap the ball out of the air and take first base routine.

A lot of these guys have changed their approaches at the plate to force pitchers outside or are leaning into pitches where they wouldn't have without the arm guards. If they were just wearing them as a precaution it wouldn't be an issue. Instead they're using them in a way outside their intended purpose. That guy didn't just get hit and not move. He didn't turn a shoulder into it. He intentionally took a ball off the arm and went way the hell out of the way to do it. I realize the guards have a purpose. That isn't it.

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you want to lean in? take off your crappy elbow guard.

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Guys lean in all the time without elbow guards.

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And guys should be able to pitch inside without fearing a player could pull an Alex Rodriguez slap the ball out of the air and take first base routine.

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Disagree. No double standard. You pitch inside, you deal with the consequences. You crowd the plate, you deal with the consequences. No special treatment.

Except guys wearing body armor aren't exactly dealing with the consequences.

Exactly. The body armor not only removes the consequences, a player has incentive to drop his armor into a pitch that wouldn't have otherwise hit him.

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you want to lean in? take off your crappy elbow guard.

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Guys lean in all the time without elbow guards.

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And guys should be able to pitch inside without fearing a player could pull an Alex Rodriguez slap the ball out of the air and take first base routine.

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Disagree. No double standard. You pitch inside, you deal with the consequences. You crowd the plate, you deal with the consequences. No special treatment.

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I'm not sure how that is a double standard. No one said you should be able to pitch inside with impunity.

But either way, that sounds like a terrible idea that would greatly inhibit pitchers and potentially make them quite weary of pitching inside.

Just to be clear, because I want to make sure you're understanding me, I'm not saying anything about body armor, I'm just saying players shouldn't be allowed to move into a pitch so they'll get hit.

Agreed however for lefty bats that throw right or vise versa. I think their are exceptions. I shattered my elbow at NM St on an inside fastball and couldn't throw for a very long time. I wish they would or could challenge guys that lean into it like that guy. Did they ever throw at him the next game?

speaking of Scherzer...

ERA per month:

April ---> 1.26
May ----> 1.67
June ---> 2.33
July ----> 3.40

Missed this when it happened, but I watched a lot of college ball and they enforced the rule about having to try and get out of the way. When they called it, it was always glaringly obvious and an improvement as far as I'm concerned (usually called in situations where guys leaned in). Sticking your padded arm out over the plate to get on base isn't "earning" anything.

Scherzer struggling in August. Given up 7 earned runs in 12 innings in his 2 starts so far this month

He's also struck out 17 guys in those 16 innings. He's still mixing in games and innings in which he looks pretty un-hittable but he's suddenly walking guys and giving up home runs when he does get hit.

I think he's just tired and the control has gone. Not the first time in his career it has happened to him. A skipped start might do him, and the Nationals, some good.

the Cy Young may be slipping away.

another rough start --- August ERA up to 7.80.

and what a collapse in progress by the Nationals (58-59). Because of their pitching staff Washington was preseason considered the best team (or second best) in the national league

Scherzer throws his 2nd no-hitter of the season vs. Mets tonight

Unreal, should've had 2 perfect games this year. Error in this game was the only baserunner.