I'm asking you. You are the one defending him. Who is he better than? I even did you a favor by looking up every player and listing them for you.

Or can you not be reasoned with?

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You tell me. Go down the list, and tell me that you really believe that all of those players none were worse than Craig Biggio? If that's the case then I guess the argument is over, you cant be reasoned with.

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If someone gave you that list and said find me one who was worse than Jose Altuve, would you respond in the same way?

Guitarsoup nailed it here. You're the one defending him, tell us why Biggio was better than one or some of those guys.

To say "ahh, he's got to better than one of them and you're wrong if you think otherwise" and leaving it at that seems a bit unreasonable.

I'll help get you started and say probably Red Schoendienst. (He's in the Hall of Fame via the veteran's committee having never gotten more than about 40% of the vote on his 15 ballots)


[This message has been edited by TXAggie2011 (edited 1/9/2014 12:00p).]

Maz and Schoendeinst are clearly the bottom of the list. Neither elected by the writers. Neither player even close to Craig Biggio and the fact that someone would include them in a list and say "is Biggio better than any of these guys!?" is, as I said originally, absurd. The person asking the question either has no clue, or has a bias and will never see reason.

Some of that list are clearly better than Biggio, and some, like the two most recent inductees closest two Biggio's generation are good arguments to have.

Guitarsoup will have to clear it up himself, but it may be presumptuous to think he's trying to argue Biggio isn't a Hall of Famer.

There's no doubt he'll get in, I thought this discussion was whether he's been wronged for getting skipped over on a couple of ballots.

My issue on Biggio is suddenly finding issues with a 3000 hit player and not electing him on the first ballot, and completely ignoring several intangibles (such as being one of the best catchers in the league for 15% of his career), and being one of the best leadoff men in the league for years, etc, when other 3000 hit players who played for more high profile teams, and at lesser defensive positions than C and 2B got a rubber stamped immediate entry.

As for giving me a list with Bill Mazeroski on it and asking "are any of these players worse than Biggio" I think the Astros second baseman most similar to Bill Mazeroski was Bill Doran.

[This message has been edited by JJxvi (edited 1/9/2014 12:25p).]

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The person asking the question either has no clue, or has a bias and will never see reason.

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The person stating this clearly has a bias and won't work within the boundaries of reason.

Why would I not include a list of every single player in the modern era? I didn't say they were all better than Biggio. But why would I exclude anyone? That makes no sense.

I agree about Schoendienst. He is probably the bottom player.

I think you could make an argument about Maz. He was one of the best defensive 2B of all time. He was not as good offensively as Biggio, but he played in a dead ball era, too. How do you equate how much better Maz is defensively to how much better Biggio is offensive?

Do you just ignore elite defensive players? His dWAR is top 25 all time of all players at all positions. Biggio had a negative dWAR.

Maz also was clutch and had one of the most historic and clutch hits ever in the history of baseball.

Biggio was a better rounded player than Max

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Guitarsoup will have to clear it up himself, but it may be presumptuous to think he's trying to argue Biggio isn't a Hall of Famer.

There's no doubt he'll get in, I thought this discussion was whether he's been wronged for getting skipped over on a couple of ballots.

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You are absolutely right. I've never said Biggio didn't deserve to get into the HOF.

My point with listing all the HOF players at 2B is more to show that Biggio isn't at the top of the list of 2B of all time and is closer to the bottom of HOF 2B. He is closer to a borderline HOF than a slam dun 1st or 2nd ballot HOF. While I think he deserve the HOF, I don't think it is a travesty that he hasn't made it in during his first two years.

Soupy, you argue too much

It just gets even more and more absurd with you.

Maz was arguably better than Biggio because he was "clutch" and "defensive" from the guy who started this discussion with this post.

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Jeff Kent was an atrocious fielder.

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Billy Bean says it doesn't matter.


What second basemen in the HOF from the modern era is Biggio better than?

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[This message has been edited by JJxvi (edited 1/9/2014 12:52p).]

That's ironic, but you're arguing whether Biggio was better than a guy who got in via the Veteran's Committee while trying to explain why Biggio should have been in on Ballot #1 or #2.

That's a bit ironic, too, I'd say.

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It just gets even more and more absurd with you.

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Say the guy that says it is absurd to include players in the HOF in a list of players in the HOF.

So you named two guys. I'm guessing you couldn't get any farther.



Defense doesn't matter as much to me. But should we throw it out completely? Especially when talking about a guy that is one of the greatest defenders ever and that was his most important contribution.

I would probably put Biggio slightly above Maz in a list of greatest 2B of all time, but I don't think it is as clear cut as most Astros fans believe it is. The reason I put him there is because of his superior offense, but I still don't think you can discount that Maz is probably the best defensive 2B ever, even though I find run generating more important that defense.

Are you going to make any contributions to the discussion, or are you just going to make comments about me while ignoring actual discussion?

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What second basemen in the HOF from the modern era is Biggio better than?

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I thought this question was absurd, and said so. That's all, my opinion that Biggio should have been first ballot is merely tangential. A discussion sprang up from there. It ended with him claiming that Maz could be considered better than Biggio because of defense and clutch play, which I agree is ironic considering the post that started it.

Biggio is clearly going to get voted in by the writers, Maz never even received 40% of the vote. Its because he was a defensive specialist that had notoriety. Maybe he deserves to be in because his defensive play was so spectacular, but he was not a better player than Biggio, and I suspect the consensus on that fact among baseball people would be astonishingly huge.

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So you named two guys. I'm guessing you couldn't get any farther.

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If you think there's an argument that Bill Mazeroski is better than Craig Biggio, then I doubt getting into a nuanced discussion of the Hall of Fame merits of Ryne Sandberg and Craig Biggio or whoever else is going to be fruitful.

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I thought this question was absurd, and said so.

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Why is it absurd to compare the merits of players at the same position for induction into the HOF?

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If you think there's an argument that Bill Mazeroski is better than Craig Biggio, then I doubt getting into a nuanced discussion of the Hall of Fame merits of Ryne Sandberg and Craig Biggio or whoever else is going to be fruitful.

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You are going to have a tough time finding ways that Biggio is better than Sandberg. Biggio better at doubles? Sure. Better at HBP/walks? Sure. Sanberg has better numbers for power, average, was a better defender and won the MVP of the league. Sandberg won nine straight gold gloves.

There are trees to bark up, but that isn't one of them. If we are going to quote unnamed "baseball people" to backup our argument like you just did, I doubt you find many outside Houston fandom that would take Biggio over Sandberg or Alomar.

From the list:

Throw out Rod Carew, he played more games at first base than at second base.

Biggio had more hits, runs scored, doubles, triples, home runs, RBI and walks than Roberto Alomar. Alomar had more steals (474-414) and a higher batting average (.300-.281). Alomar's career fielding % at second base was 0.981. Biggio's was 0.982. Also, Biggio was famous for his relentless charity work for the Sunshine Kids that netted him the Roberto Clemente Award in 2007. Alomar was famous for spitting in an umpire's face when he was an 8-year veteran in the league. Is that a fair comparison? Nope, but that's America's perception. Biggio was better.

Bobby Doerr hit .288 for his career and led the league in an offensive category exactly twice in his career: in slugging percentage in 1945 when most of the all-stars were overseas, and in triples in 1950. Biggio led the league in runs scored twice, doubles thrice, steals once and hit by pitch five times. Doerr barely got to 2,000 hits, hit 223 homers and stole 54 bases. I have no idea why he's in the HOF. Biggio was better.

Nellie Fox was an amazing fielder who hit .288 for his career, stole less than 100 career bases and hit less than 100 career homers. He had 2,663 hits. Biggio was better.

Frankie Frisch and Charlie Gehringer are clearly better than Craig Biggio, as are Rogers Hornsby and Jackie Robinson.

I've never heard of Joe Gordon until today. He made an all-star team one year hitting .210. He won the AL MVP in 1942 - the first baseball season in which the US was in WWII, then dropped off the face of the earth. He had 1,530 career hits. Biggio was better.

Tony Lazerri played for the Yankees in the 1920s and 1930s. Nothing about his numbers suggest he was a HOFer nor better than Biggio.

Billy Herman put up very comparable career numbers to Biggio.

Bill Mazeroski - as you said, one of the most famous homers in history. Guess that means Joe Carter is getting in soon? Biggio was better.

Joe Morgan - The leadoff man for the Big Red Machine. Huge run and steal numbers. Amazing OBP numbers. Great fielder. Better than Biggio
.
Ryne Sandberg - Amazing MVP season in 1984. Was really good all-around player for about 8 seasons, then dropped off, retired, unretired, and was lousy for last two years. Didn't get anywhere near 3,000 hits. Didn't sniff 300 homers, even though he somehow hit 40 in 1990. Career .285 hitter. Under .350 OBP for his career; never walked more than he struck out in a season; the errorless streak was incredible, but most baseball writers will tell you a lot of it came because he wasn't able to reach some balls as he got older, thus he didn't have the chance to make a play (or an error). Had WGN not existed, would he be so well-known? Biggio is better.

Red Schoendienst was a great fielder who got to 2,400 hits and didn't break 100 career homers or 100 career steals. Not better than Biggio.

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Why is it absurd to compare the merits of players at the same position for induction into the HOF?

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Your question was absurd because to me it implied that there were no players at his position that Biggio was better than.

For another, because for some players its not their status as a fielder that merits them for inclusion into the Hall of Fame, but their status among all players, and the merits of their entire career and possibly other intangibles. (The case you built for Mazeroski is a good example even though he clearly doesn't stack up to other hall of fame second basemen.) Limiting to the handful of players at each position as the basis of comparison for each candidate really restricts the sample size of comparison. Why should I only be allowed to compare Craig Biggio to 2B? Limiting me to 2B is particularly absurd for a player who played 30% of his career at other positions, and not a position like 1B or DH to put him out to pasture but other middle of the field positions like catcher and CF. I suspect if you compare Craig Biggio's profile to the typical hall of fame C, SS, 2B, and CF that he actually benefits by comparison, and guess what, he actually played 3 of those positions, not just 2B.

Muck with the boom hammer

I also agree that Ryne Sandberg may have been a better 2B than Biggio, particularly on the basis of medium term peak seasons (say best 5-6 year stretch), however I think Biggio was better than Sandberg in each of their peak best single seasons, and of course Biggio played for a very long time. I think park effects at each players peak need to be looked at as well, with Sandberg playing in a hitters park and Biggio's best seasons taking place in a pitcher's park. It's not the slam dunk that you seem to think it is particularly among the counting stats that long careers are judged by. But then again you actually seem to entertain the idea that Mazeroski might have been better than Biggio, so...

[This message has been edited by JJxvi (edited 1/9/2014 4:09p).]

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http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_2B.shtml

Here's a stat that shows that Biggio probably belongs in the Hall, but it's not the overwhelming slam dunk that some make it out to be.

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Biggio aside Bobby Grich was very under-appreciated when looking at his WAR and dWAR.

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Muck with the boom hammer

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Droppin raindrops on Japan!

Muck is ignoring defense in favor of offense. Fine with some positions, very disingenuous for second basemen. Biggio was an offensive player and a rather poor fielder.

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Your question was absurd because to me it implied that there were no players at his position that Biggio was better than.

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It did nothing of the sort. It is an honest and relevant question that you couldn't answer.

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I think Biggio was better than Sandberg in each of their peak best single seasons

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WHA? Sandberg hit .306 with 40 HRs (led league), 100RBIs and 25 SBs while winning the gold glove. And that wasn't even his MVP season where he hit 19 triples.


Good work, Muck.

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Throw out Rod Carew, he played more games at first base than at second base.

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He did move to first when he turned 30 after winning FIVE batting titles at 2B. He was top-five in WAR for position players for 5 straight years as a second baseman. He played 1130 games at 2B and 1184 games at 1B. I think because his prime was played primarily at 2B, he will always be considered a second baseman.

Call your grandfather or some old Ag and ask them what position Carew played. I would bet they primarily remember him as a 2B.

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Biggio had more hits, runs scored, doubles, triples, home runs, RBI and walks than Roberto Alomar. Alomar had more steals (474-414) and a higher batting average (.300-.281). Alomar's career fielding % at second base was 0.981. Biggio's was 0.982. Also, Biggio was famous for his relentless charity work for the Sunshine Kids that netted him the Roberto Clemente Award in 2007. Alomar was famous for spitting in an umpire's face when he was an 8-year veteran in the league. Is that a fair comparison? Nope, but that's America's perception. Biggio was better.

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Wow. I won't disagree that Biggio is a better person than Robbie Alomar. But Ty Cobb is a HOFer, too and I don't think they care too much about people being jerks.

It is not surprising that Craig had more totals than Robbie. He did play 500 more games.
162 game average for each:
Robbie vs Craig
103 Runs 105*
*185 Hits 174
34 Doubles 38*
*5 Triples 3
14 HR 17*
*32 SB 24
*77 RBI 67
*70 BB 66
*78 SO 100
*.300 BA .281
*.371 OB .363
*.443 SLUG .433
*.814 OPS .796
*66.8 WAR 64.9
*2.4 dWAR -3.9
*10 Gold Gloves 4

So it looks like Biggio was actually better at Doubles, home runs, run scoring and character. And Robbie was better at Everything else.

Biggio was not better than Robbie Alomar.

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Bobby Doerr hit .288 for his career and led the league in an offensive category exactly twice in his career: in slugging percentage in 1945 when most of the all-stars were overseas, and in triples in 1950. Biggio led the league in runs scored twice, doubles thrice, steals once and hit by pitch five times. Doerr barely got to 2,000 hits, hit 223 homers and stole 54 bases. I have no idea why he's in the HOF. Biggio was better.

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I don't disagree with you and I don't know much about him. It should probably be noted that he lost a year of his prime serving overseas during WWII. Wikipedia says he was considered the best defensive 2B of his era. Wikipedia never lies. His numbers look pretty good for a 2B - decent power, lots of doubles and triples. His dWAR was over 13, so I am guessing he actually was a pretty good defender. I'm happy to give this to Biggio. I just don't know anything about Doerr other than looking at baseball reference or reading Wiki.

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Nellie Fox was an amazing fielder who hit .288 for his career, stole less than 100 career bases and hit less than 100 career homers. He had 2,663 hits. Biggio was better.

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You realize that during the 30s-40s-50s, stealing bases wasn't really a thing. There was usually about a dozen guys over 10. In 1954, Fox was top-ten in MLB in steals with 16. Nellie Fox did win the MVP at second base, so he was considered the best player in baseball for at least one year in his career, something Biggio never had.

Sure, he had less hits than Biggio, but he did average more hits per game than Biggio. Not a lot of guys in the 40s played 20 years. We all know that training, diet and science has come a long way. With an MVP over Mickey Mantle in addition to his better batting (though much less power) and much better defense, I am not ready to put Biggio over him.

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Frankie Frisch and Charlie Gehringer are clearly better than Craig Biggio, as are Rogers Hornsby and Jackie Robinson.

I've never heard of Joe Gordon until today. He made an all-star team one year hitting .210. He won the AL MVP in 1942 - the first baseball season in which the US was in WWII, then dropped off the face of the earth. He had 1,530 career hits. Biggio was better.

Tony Lazerri played for the Yankees in the 1920s and 1930s. Nothing about his numbers suggest he was a HOFer nor better than Biggio.

Joe Morgan - The leadoff man for the Big Red Machine. Huge run and steal numbers. Amazing OBP numbers. Great fielder. Better than Biggio

Red Schoendienst was a great fielder who got to 2,400 hits and didn't break 100 career homers or 100 career steals. Not better than Biggio.

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Cosign.

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Billy Herman put up very comparable career numbers to Biggio.

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Going strictly off the stats, I would put him above Biggio. Better doubles hitter than Biggio (41 vs 38 per 162), higher average (.304 vs .281), much less SO (only 36 per 162 games vs 100 per 162) and better fielding (12.4 dWAR vs -3.9) but gave Biggio advantages in homers and stolen bases. Plus young William Jennings Bryan Herman lost two years to WWII. (In 1943, he batted .330 with 41 doubles and 100 RBI.)

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Bill Mazeroski - as you said, one of the most famous homers in history. Guess that means Joe Carter is getting in soon? Biggio was better.

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Probably the best defensive 2B that ever lived. Biggio has an advantage due to his superior offense.

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Ryne Sandberg - Amazing MVP season in 1984. Was really good all-around player for about 8 seasons, then dropped off, retired, unretired, and was lousy for last two years. Didn't get anywhere near 3,000 hits. Didn't sniff 300 homers, even though he somehow hit 40 in 1990. Career .285 hitter. Under .350 OBP for his career; never walked more than he struck out in a season; the errorless streak was incredible, but most baseball writers will tell you a lot of it came because he wasn't able to reach some balls as he got older, thus he didn't have the chance to make a play (or an error). Had WGN not existed, would he be so well-known? Biggio is better.

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Stated above, but disagree. I put a lot of weight in an MVP because it means you were the best in the league. Sandberg had a higher peak, Biggio had a longer career.

For their career per 162 game average, Biggio has Sandberg in runs, doubles, walks and strikeouts. Sandberg has Biggio in hits, triples, homers, RBI, stolen bases, average, gold gloves and dWAR. Sandberg also led the league in triples, homers, total bases and runs (x3.) I give Sandberg the nod over Biggio.


So Biggio better than:
Maz
Gordon
Lazerri
Red Schfkhsakhhjkasd
Doerr

We agree better than Biggio:
Jackie Robinson
Roger Hornsby
Frankie Frisch
Charlie Gehringer
Joe Morgan

I believe better than Biggio:
Alomar
Sandberg
Rod Carew
Billy Herman

In the air/close:
Nellie Fox

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I think park effects at each players peak need to be looked at as well, with Sandberg playing in a hitters park and Biggio's best seasons taking place in a pitcher's park.

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I think the fast turf in the Astrodome would be good for a gap hitter like Biggio, while it would be bad for a home run hitter like Bagwell.

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Biggio was an offensive player and a rather poor fielder.

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Biggio was an average fielder (and one with 4 gold gloves). His dWAR in years where he played 2B are slightly positive, his dWAR as catcher are positive. His negative defensive balance is rouning around the pasture in minute maid park as a 40 year old man.

[This message has been edited by JJxvi (edited 1/9/2014 5:02p).]

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I think the fast turf in the Astrodome would be good for a gap hitter like Biggio, while it would be bad for a home run hitter like Bagwell.

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Does the data support that? After all "what people think" is the same rationale that gave players like Biggio gold gloves...

Is there somewhere you can see the highest dWAR single seasons by position. Biggio's 2.2 is ridiculous. Better than any season by guys like Sandberg (who approached 2 a couple times) and Alomar.

Biggio only had a dWAR over 1.0 twice. Once as a catcher at 1.2 and once as a 2B in 1997 at 2.2.

Biggio was primarily a 2B for 14 seasons. Biggio had a dWAR of 0.1 or lower in 11 of those 14 seasons. He had a WAR over 1.0 only once in 14 years as a second baseman.

If dWAR is to be trusted, Biggio was a below average fielder at 2B.

dWAR says that Alomar and Sandberg were slightly above average players and that Chase Utley is a fantastic second baseman on the level of Bill Mazeroski

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Is there somewhere you can see the highest dWAR single seasons by position. Biggio's 2.2 is ridiculous. Better than any season by guys like Sandberg (who approached 2 a couple times) and Alomar.

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I know Adam Everett had a dWAR of over 4 in 06.

Sanberg and Robbie were at least positive in dWAR at 2B. Biggio was negative at 2B for his career.

Interesting. Adrelton Simmons broke the record for dWAR last year.

I think we're in round 6 of 12 in this heavyweight MLB nerd bout. Judges say the card is currently at a split decision with soup getting knocked down late in the 5th round & JJ going down midway through the 3rd.

[This message has been edited by Smith&Co1970 (edited 1/9/2014 5:21p).]

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Sandberg hit .306 with 40 HRs (led league), 100RBIs and 25 SBs while winning the gold glove. And that wasn't even his MVP season where he hit 19 triples.

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He must have been juicing

Maybe.



But I wouldn't bet on it. I'd bet on El Nino blowing out to Waveland Ave first. Don't think Sandberg was ever as buff as Biggio.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 1/9/2014 5:26p).]